Logs on 2025-08-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:08:20 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 01:19:36 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 08:39:45 | <Leary> | What would cause an otherwise flat heap profile to have big spikes attributed to `STACK` and `BLACKHOLE` in `-hT` and `SYSTEM` in `-hc`/`-hr`? |
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| 09:01:34 | <jreicher> | If you have lots of blackholes it's because you have lots of new thunk evaluations, and the creation of the new thunks alone would cause spikes on the heap profile |
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| 09:56:38 | <Leary> | jreicher: Thanks. A couple of `SPECIALISE` pragmata and some extra strictness shrank the spikes down pretty well. |
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| 10:11:11 | <sajenim> | what's a good into to haskell/functional programming book? |
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| 10:24:10 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> what's your background, what style do you like sajenim ? |
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| 10:35:38 | <[exa]> | sajenim: the good choices usually vary a lot depending on what you already know (mostly, what programming languages you did before) |
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| 10:37:33 | <chromoblob> | sajenim: mine was "Learn you a Haskell for great good", it worked for me |
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| 10:42:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books > beginner has a list; there's no comprehensive review of all of them. https://joyful.com/Haskell+minimap has some other book-like things. |
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| 18:17:24 | <lightspell> | I was on here yesterday asking about getting a StateT wrapped around a StatefulGen working. I've fixed my connection issues and I've tried to understand the suggestion from @absence. I think I need to declare my GameState type something like this: `type GameState a = (StatefulGen g m) => StateT Game (m g) a`. However, that and a number of other variations I've tried all lead to different errors. |
| 18:17:37 | <lightspell> | Here's the updated code: https://play.haskell.org/saved/bhdquoHn |
| 18:19:33 | <lightspell> | `g` and `m` are not in scope, so I tried `type GameState g m a = (StatefulGen g m) => StateT Game (m g) a` and `type GameState g m a = (StatefulGen g m) => StateT Game m a` but neither of them worked either. I'd like to actually understand what I'm doing wrong, instead of just randomly trying different variations to see if it works. |
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| 18:25:59 | <lightspell> | I thought I could make it more concrete with `type GameState a = StateT Game (State StdGen) a`, but then I get "Couldn't match type ‘m’ with ‘State StdGen’" |
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| 18:31:32 | <lightspell> | Hm, this seems the closest to working: `type GameState g m a = (StatefulGen g m) => StateT Game (State g) a`. Here's what that looks like: https://play.haskell.org/saved/JPa8opVe |
| 18:33:00 | <lightspell> | But that still doesn't work, and then every function has to have a type signature like `getPlayer :: (StatefulGen g m) => PlayerId -> GameState g m Player`, which seems like it's not right. |
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| 19:14:44 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: is there a reason you don't want the random state in your Game state? |
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| 19:17:30 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: isn't your problem that neither StateT nor State is an instance of StatefulGen |
| 19:17:44 | <tomsmeding> | then you can declare constraints as much as you like, but if the instance isn't there, it isn't there |
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| 19:21:23 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: do you need the monad to be polymorphic in the generator type? |
| 19:24:55 | <EvanR> | explicitly including RNG state in the game state lets you replay a game without recording every step |
| 19:25:13 | <EvanR> | the history of the game is generated from the game state and the user's inputs |
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| 19:33:41 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: okay the StatefulGen API works like this: there is a monad (m) and a handle type (g); the functions for generating random values take a handle and run in the monad, and the monad (m) is responsible for storing the actual random generator data |
| 19:34:07 | <tomsmeding> | if you want to make your game monad polymorphic over both g and m, you're making your life difficult |
| 19:34:22 | <lightspell> | There's no particular reason not to include the random state in the game state. I just didn't know how to do that. I'm struggling to understand the System.Random docks. |
| 19:34:43 | <lightspell> | *docs |
| 19:34:45 | <tomsmeding> | are you fine with a non-polymorphic solution? |
| 19:36:36 | <lightspell> | Yes, non-polymorphic would be fine. I'm just trying to figure out how all this fits together. I thought from reading the docs that I could use StatefulGen in such a way to make the random number generator update itself in a State monad as it's used, so I wouldn't have to do it manually. Everything else is just my failing to understand how to do that. |
| 19:37:25 | <EvanR> | just using the stdlib RNG normally would be a good starting point |
| 19:37:32 | <EvanR> | before using some weird library |
| 19:37:37 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: this _is_ the stdlib rng |
| 19:37:42 | <tomsmeding> | it's System.Random.Stateful |
| 19:37:43 | <EvanR> | StatefulGen ? |
| 19:37:45 | <tomsmeding> | I've never liked the API |
| 19:37:49 | <lightspell> | yeah, fair enough |
| 19:37:54 | <EvanR> | never heard of it |
| 19:37:58 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/random-1.3.1/docs/System-Random-Stateful.html#t:StatefulGen |
| 19:38:45 | <tomsmeding> | the requirement for the MonadState constraint on the `StatefulGen (StateGenM g) m` instance is a bother |
| 19:38:50 | <EvanR> | random :: RandomGen g => g -> (a, g) |
| 19:39:01 | <EvanR> | I guess this is "non-stateful" xD |
| 19:39:14 | <tomsmeding> | yes, the idea of the stateful API is that the random generator is stored in a state monad |
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| 19:39:17 | <tomsmeding> | and that handling is done for you |
| 19:39:36 | <tomsmeding> | but the API is polymorphic over various kinds of state monads; it also allows an IORef in IO, for example |
| 19:39:40 | <tomsmeding> | and that makes it cumbersome to work with |
| 19:41:08 | <lightspell> | Yeah, that's exactly what I'm struggling with. I have no idea how to make it non-polymorphic, or how to store its state inside the Game type alongside the rest of the game state. Either approach would be fine. |
| 19:41:12 | <tomsmeding> | damn and they don't even export all methods of StatefulGen from the public module so you can't make an optimally performing manual instance without importing Internal |
| 19:41:15 | <tomsmeding> | that feels like a bug |
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| 19:42:07 | <EvanR> | smh |
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| 19:43:44 | <lightspell> | If I just cared about getting the game working I'd just store a regular rng in the game state and manage it manually. But I'd like to figure out how to do it with monads because the whole point is to teach myself how all this works. |
| 19:43:54 | <lightspell> | Everything you guys have said is already really helpful, thank you. |
| 19:44:02 | <tomsmeding> | this StatefulGen API is kind of crappy |
| 19:44:06 | <tomsmeding> | not a good example to learn from :p |
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| 19:44:18 | <lightspell> | Yeah I've been bouncing off it pretty hard. |
| 19:44:40 | <tomsmeding> | I'll hack up what feels to me like the neatest way to use this API |
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| 19:48:14 | <lightspell> | That would be amazing, thank you. |
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| 20:12:35 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: https://play.haskell.org/saved/grshBtBn |
| 20:12:37 | <tomsmeding> | blegh |
| 20:12:40 | <tomsmeding> | it works though |
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| 20:14:07 | <tomsmeding> | I removed the Read derive for Game because StdGen doesn't implement Read; in general, Read was a nice idea back in 1998 but it's slow and not recommended these days |
| 20:15:16 | <tomsmeding> | if you want hacky show/read working, you'll either need to implement Read for StdGen yourself, or split the data type in two parts, one of which is Read, the other of which has the StdGen |
| 20:15:49 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: also I cargo-culted the lens code in the StatefulGen instance; I know ~zero about lens |
| 20:15:57 | <tomsmeding> | there is probably a way to do this more nicely |
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| 20:19:30 | <lightspell> | This is amazing, thank you so much. I wouldn't have thought to make our own custom StatefulGen. I thought the whole point of a general library was that you could avoid doing that. |
| 20:20:47 | <lightspell> | As I learn more, if I figure out a way to do it more nicely, I'll share it on here. |
| 20:21:00 | <monochrom> | But then meta-ly the point of FOSS is that the users help make that happen rather than just voting for "someone else should do it". |
| 20:21:57 | <monochrom> | (I did my tiny share. https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/183/commits/090f457125d33d8b7b0be4870cf089f344e6360d ) |
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| 20:27:57 | <monochrom> | The general bridge required is likely of the form: If StatefulGen g m, and type r has a lens to g, then StatefulGen r m. |
| 20:28:18 | <monochrom> | But I would not be happy if random depended on lens. |
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| 20:30:19 | <monochrom> | No no no. |
| 20:30:38 | <monochrom> | The proper solution is to have a proper effect language! >:) |
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| 20:38:50 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: even if you'd make random depend on lens, there's no way to write that instance |
| 20:39:07 | <tomsmeding> | I guess you could introduce a special newtype for this and attach the instance to that |
| 20:39:32 | <tomsmeding> | I guess that does work, yes |
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| 20:40:19 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: no, that doesn't work, because the 'g' there is the _handle_ type, not the generator type that's being modified |
| 20:41:09 | <tomsmeding> | to wit: if m ~ State StdGen, then g ~ StateGenM StdGen, and StateGenM is a data type with zero fields |
| 20:41:19 | <tomsmeding> | because there is only one generator in 'State StdGen', so the handle is trivial |
| 20:41:39 | <tomsmeding> | for m ~ IO, the handle is (a newtype over) an IORef |
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| 20:42:55 | <tomsmeding> | the haddocks make this even more confusing because they use "g" as a type variable name both for this handle (`StatefulGen g m`, where e.g. g ~ StateGenM StdGen) and for the underlying generator (`StateGenM g`, where e.g. g ~ StdGen) |
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| 20:43:37 | <tomsmeding> | the solution _is_, of course, to have a proper effect language indeed |
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| 20:47:14 | <lightspell> | I was reading about effects libraries but they were over my head for now. I figured I'd get this working with simpler methods first then try to refactor it with effects later as another exercise. |
| 20:47:19 | <lightspell> | tomsmeding: That example you sent works in the Haskell playground with v9.10.2, but not with my local compiler with the same version. It suggested turning on MultiParamTypeClasses, which I did, but now I'm still getting this error "Couldn't match type ‘MutableGen f0 GameM’ with ‘()’ arising from a use of ‘System.Random.Internal.$dmuniformByteArrayM’ The type variable ‘f0’ is ambiguous" |
| 20:47:36 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: that remark about effect languages was mostly in jest, by both of us |
| 20:48:07 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: right, the MultiParamTypeClasses is because you're probably in a project with Haskell2010 set as the default language |
| 20:48:16 | <tomsmeding> | the playground has ghc's default which is more |
| 20:48:27 | <lightspell> | Ah, thank you. I figured it had to be a config difference of some kind. |
| 20:48:28 | <tomsmeding> | the uniformByteArrayM is random-1.3 |
| 20:48:35 | <tomsmeding> | let me check |
| 20:50:52 | <tomsmeding> | okay so for some inane reason the `random` maintainers decided that in adding the uniformByteArrayM method to StatefulGen, they wanted to _not_ expose this method from the public API |
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| 20:54:35 | <monochrom> | There is some chance that it's just forgetfulness. I speak from the anecdotal experience that last time it was newtype StateGen forgetting to say "deriving SplitGen". (Hence the one time I knew how to make a tiny PR heh.) |
| 20:55:04 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: it is not, they explicitly added an export list in the same commit https://github.com/haskell/random/commit/8267ce861aef525937e949e49496d0b39598d93f#diff-fe93ae678c398cfea72ff60186cc2cee27bd752aad99d8fd1ece059c912f0104R23-R41 |
| 20:57:07 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: I _think_ you need to replace () by a custom data type (with zero fields, say `data GameRandomHandle = GameRandomHandle`), then write `instance FrozenGen StdGen GameM where { type MutableGen StdGen GameM = GameRandomHandle ; freezeGen _ = gets (^. randomGen) ; thawGen gen = modify (\s -> s & randomGen .~ gen) }` |
| 20:57:17 | <tomsmeding> | but this is mentally type-checked, I did not run this through a compiler |
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| 21:01:25 | <monochrom> | I am currently OK with: If I can't extend StatefulGen g m to StatefulGen (g,s) m, I can settle with StateT g (State s) or StateT s (State g). (Or the polymorphic MonadState this MonadTrans that version.) |
| 21:02:09 | <tomsmeding> | yes you can do that, but with the first option your monad is not MonadState s, and with the second option your monad is not StatefulGen |
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| 21:02:27 | <tomsmeding> | I guess you can newtype-wrap your monad and write your own MonadState s instance |
| 21:03:01 | <tomsmeding> | or you can lift the StatefulGen methods over the StateT s, with the second option |
| 21:03:27 | <tomsmeding> | you can't be MonadState s and MonadState g at the same time because MonadState has a functional dependency on m -> s |
| 21:03:48 | <tomsmeding> | all approaches are messy in _some_ way |
| 21:04:01 | <monochrom> | I'm very prepared to write like either "lift get" or "lift (uniformRM (0,1) g)" actually. (I have low standards. :) ) |
| 21:04:03 | <tomsmeding> | it's true that maybe the one I chose is not the least messy |
| 21:04:26 | <tomsmeding> | fair |
| 21:04:28 | <tomsmeding> | lightspell: exercise :) |
| 21:05:02 | <monochrom> | Well I'm bipolar. On prime numbered days I would be like "a real effect language already". |
| 21:05:05 | <tomsmeding> | type GameM = StateT Game (State StdGen) |
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| 21:05:26 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: does that mean that this becomes less common as you get older? |
| 21:06:01 | <monochrom> | Yeah gotta give up and compromise. |
| 21:07:25 | <monochrom> | What they say about "if you're 20 and you don't root for dependent typing / algebraic effects / linear types, you don't have a heart. If you're 50 and you still root for them, you don't have a grip." >:) |
| 21:07:43 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
| 21:08:15 | <tomsmeding> | I'm 27 and I'm not even sure if I'm "rooting for them" |
| 21:08:18 | <tomsmeding> | they have their uses |
| 21:08:53 | <tomsmeding> | sometimes I'd like some dependent types in my haskell code, but then if haskell gets actual proper dependent types, people will write _dependent_ code, and all will be hell |
| 21:09:14 | <tomsmeding> | the amount of masochism required to do dependent programming in haskell today puts a natural limit on it |
| 21:09:43 | <geekosaur> | you'd be surprised. there's an awful lot of "Hasochism" (`singletons`) out there |
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| 21:10:03 | <tomsmeding> | I write very hasochistic code, although with manual singletons, not with the package |
| 21:10:23 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't mean that I think it's a good idea if everyone starts doing that |
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| 21:10:59 | <monochrom> | I have the opposite opinion. Real dependent types in Haskell will be OK. Current horror is because using singletons to fake it. |
| 21:11:28 | <tomsmeding> | then there will never be real dependent types in haskell, because the language was not designed for it and it will always be a retrofit |
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| 21:11:35 | <monochrom> | OK OK type inference will be problematic with real dependent types. I concede. |
| 21:11:54 | <tomsmeding> | not just that, I was mostly thinking about syntax |
| 21:11:57 | <tomsmeding> | too much syntax has been stolen |
| 21:12:37 | <tomsmeding> | I actually have more confidence in people figuring out a way to make code that infers now, still infer with the dependent features added -- as long as you don't use them |
| 21:12:53 | <monochrom> | (I speak out of having tried Lean, on both counts. Apart from needing more type annotations, Lean dependent typing is OK.) |
| 21:12:55 | <tomsmeding> | if you want proper dependent types in a language where they are at home, use agda or idris |
| 21:13:03 | <tomsmeding> | I guess also lean, yes |
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| 21:15:54 | <monochrom> | Ooohhh I understand TypeInType now. |
| 21:16:23 | <monochrom> | Lean doesn't have impredicativity because it can't do TypeInType. Haskell will do fine in this regard. Well, "fine". :) |
| 21:17:27 | <monochrom> | (I have a soft spot for impredicativity because it helps System F cover all algebraic types for free.) |
| 21:17:37 | <monochrom> | (It's so beautiful.) |
| 21:24:28 | <monochrom> | Or to narrow down, nesting algebraic types, e.g., [Maybe X] --- If you encode Maybe X as "forall r. r -> (X -> r) -> r", then [Maybe X] because [forall r. ... that ...]. |
| 21:24:42 | <monochrom> | s/because/becomes/ |
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| 21:37:09 | <lightspell> | tomsmeding: I switched to GHC2024, but it's still not working like it is on playground. I'm trying to get the instance FrozenGen you recommended working. I had to enable TypeFamilies, and for some reason on my machine I have to define `overwriteGen` even though on the playground it's `thawGen`. Here's what I did: https://play.haskell.org/saved/bO5hp2ha |
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| 21:38:34 | <lightspell> | I'm curious why any of that was necesary even after switching to GHC0204. I would have thought the local version would work then. |
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| 21:50:38 | <lightspell> | Huh. It actually works when I replace GameRandomHandle with (): https://play.haskell.org/saved/m78Qrr9Y |
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| 22:26:51 | × | zarakshR quits (~Thunderbi@0542a05a.skybroadband.com) (Quit: zarakshR) |
| 22:27:01 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:27:11 | → | zarakshR joins (~Thunderbi@0542a05a.skybroadband.com) |
| 22:31:45 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 22:33:04 | → | arandombit joins (~arandombi@2603:7000:4600:ffbe:ec4b:ec92:8e15:b25a) |
| 22:33:04 | × | arandombit quits (~arandombi@2603:7000:4600:ffbe:ec4b:ec92:8e15:b25a) (Changing host) |
| 22:33:04 | → | arandombit joins (~arandombi@user/arandombit) |
| 22:39:16 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 22:42:49 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:46:27 | × | sw4n quits (~sw4n@2605:59c0:413f:3110:e59f:e0ff:6b6e:883b) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 22:47:42 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 22:48:58 | × | ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:19 | × | sw4n quits (~sw4n@2605:59c0:413f:3110:e59f:e0ff:6b6e:883b) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:54:44 | → | sw4n joins (~sw4n@2605:59c0:413f:3110:e59f:e0ff:6b6e:883b) |
| 22:55:10 | → | ljdarj joins (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) |
| 22:56:13 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:59:29 | × | sw4n quits (~sw4n@2605:59c0:413f:3110:e59f:e0ff:6b6e:883b) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:01:49 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:02:34 | → | sw4n joins (~sw4n@2605:59c0:413f:3110:e59f:e0ff:6b6e:883b) |
| 23:10:27 | → | segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 23:10:34 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:12:13 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:14:05 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 23:17:33 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:28:00 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:31:34 | × | segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:33:18 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:35:32 | → | Square2 joins (~Square@user/square) |
| 23:43:49 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:48:33 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:48:50 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 23:57:14 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:58:29 | × | sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f05a9000cb0d4b3f4edd851.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-08-29.