Logs on 2025-09-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:28:08 | <sm> | "we're having to do a full 55TB DB snapshot restore from last night, which will take >10h to recover the data, and then >4h to actually restore, and then >3h to catch up on missing traffic. Huge apologies for the outage. Again, folks using their own homeservers are not impacted." |
| 04:29:20 | <sm> | so uh.. yay for fallback systems! |
| 04:31:16 | <sm> | another: https://mastodon.matrix.org/@matrix |
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| 04:58:04 | <sm> | re matrix decentralisation.. I found you can easily sign up with a different matrix homeserver at http://joinmatrix.org , but you can't join a room that was created on matrix.org, unless (presumably) someone on the alternate server had previously joined it and caused it to be mirrored |
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| 05:17:15 | <sm> | even then, it tends not to work. True decentralisation is hard. |
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| 06:14:55 | <probie> | sm: Is it? Email seems to work pretty reliably |
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| 06:31:46 | <sm> | of real-time chat, I meant. Yes email works pretty well |
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| 06:43:15 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Email is completely different from matrix, nothing in common except that both allow humans to exchange text |
| 06:45:09 | <sm> | FWIW, here's how to join a matrix room when its homeserver is down - if OTHERSERVER has it synced: https://matrix.to/#/!ROOMID?via=OTHERSERVER |
| 06:45:29 | <sm> | Eg https://matrix.to/#/!hskonBonfjiIefqLUV:matrix.org?via=envs.net for the Haskell room via envs.net homeserver |
| 06:48:57 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Yeah you can join via another HS and it should eventually catch with m.org when it goes up again. Thats the beauty of decentralized services. Matrix is far from perfect but i dont see anyone with anything better |
| 06:48:59 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> +up |
| 06:50:27 | <sm> | it was pretty hard to find this out, matrix clients can improve |
| 06:51:24 | <sm> | if clients handled it better, it would feel pretty much like an IRC net split |
| 06:53:08 | <sm> | rather than a total outage |
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| 06:59:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I do think that most complaints about matrix are actually the clients fault. Yes split brains do happen, spam is a problem. But the most glaring user facing issues are shitty clients |
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| 07:01:18 | <sm> | I agree they could provide much better UX in many cases. Even if it's just "current matrix protocol doesn't allow this to work; info: URL, for now do: X |
| 07:02:25 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Mhm, were in the realm of the general free software UI/UX problem. Not many UX/UI people around |
| 07:02:35 | <sm> | probably the high cost of updating and shipping a popular client makes it hard to be agile and detailed |
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| 07:03:11 | <sm> | even for a TUI client, I think the cost is super high |
| 07:03:50 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> brick tui matrix client when |
| 07:04:30 | <sm> | glguy has one maybe ? I forget |
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| 07:07:42 | <sm> | messaging clients are a bit like web browsers these days, they are expected to do a LOT |
| 07:07:59 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Mhm |
| 07:08:14 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> No wonder most of them are webbrowsers :P |
| 07:08:18 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Its just convenient |
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| 07:09:53 | <sm> | reconnecting with haskell... simplex is very interesting messaging alternative, written in haskell. Semi decentralised. |
| 07:10:37 | <sm> | let me try that again: Simplex Chat is a very interesting alternative messaging system, written in haskell. |
| 07:13:10 | <sm> | (Are the clients written in haskell too ? Not sure) |
| 07:13:57 | <sm> | AI says yes, the core of them is |
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| 07:14:24 | <sm> | oh well time to do something useful |
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| 07:33:43 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Simplex is more like signal, not like matrix |
| 07:33:55 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Matrix is more like irc than signal |
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| 11:18:13 | <dminuoso> | magic_rb: There is also the issue of server complexity. There is only synapse really, and configuring synapse is about as much fun as administering Azure AD/Entra ID. |
| 11:18:36 | <dminuoso> | So its not just shitty clients. :-) |
| 11:19:43 | <dminuoso> | Plus the protocol choices made it impossible to create simple linear clinets with. |
| 11:20:34 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Synapse is tbh not that bad, its worse than hedgedoc but much easier than kube |
| 11:22:04 | <dminuoso> | Matrix is what happens if you crossed IRC and mailing lists, and did the client with electron using all the SPA UX of a modern web application. |
| 11:23:36 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> No matrix is what happens if you rewrite irc with a crdt dag |
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| 11:37:12 | <bwe> | I encounter an `undefined` error in a data constructor. But I don't know where it happens. ghc only throws `undefined`. How can I let ghc show more context? |
| 11:38:42 | <dminuoso> | bwe: Run with +RTS -xc (after compiling with -prof and -fprof-auto) |
| 11:38:54 | <dminuoso> | And do some praying. |
| 11:39:28 | <dminuoso> | Most of the time you get a half usable stack trace. |
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| 11:41:33 | <dminuoso> | bwe: The quality largely depends on your code style and how it interacts with -fprof-auto - otherwise you might have to granularly add SCC annotations. |
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| 11:42:37 | <dminuoso> | It's one of the big price points of our execution model that good stack traces are really hard.. :( |
| 11:43:25 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> With a lot of tiny functions relying on inlining it should produce sensible stack traces right |
| 11:44:33 | <dminuoso> | I wonder whether ghci shouldnt be able to instrument the code such that every exception is properly traceable. |
| 11:45:20 | <dminuoso> | At first glance it seems easy If we disabled the simplifier |
| 11:45:46 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> With -prof it disables opts by default |
| 11:45:56 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> You have to force them back on with -O2 i think |
| 11:46:14 | <dminuoso> | Well INLINE is still respected |
| 11:46:24 | <dminuoso> | I think the SCC are just optimization barriers? |
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| 11:46:39 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Last time i did -prof it was for heatmaps and without -O2 the result is unusable since no inlining occurs |
| 11:46:58 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> dminuoso no thats the issue. Inlining deletes SCCs |
| 11:47:24 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> You have to disable inlining if you want a full stack trace. Enable inlining if youre hunting performance bottlenecks |
| 11:47:53 | <dminuoso> | haskellbridge: okay then I consider it a but for -fprof-auto to not SCC annotate INLINE bindings. |
| 11:48:08 | <dminuoso> | If -prof already disables that, that's just intentional inconvenience. |
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| 11:48:14 | <dminuoso> | It makes no sense. |
| 11:48:27 | <dminuoso> | s/but/bug/ |
| 11:51:21 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Idk if i did -prof-auto, but i think so. Im not an expert tho |
| 11:54:39 | <bwe> | dminuoso: thx |
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| 14:00:28 | <__monty__> | Re my filtering question from yesterday. Pandoc has a Walkable class that gets very close to what I was thinking of. I don't think it quite corresponds to Witherable or Filterable, those don't seem to capture the recursive quality I was looking for. |
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| 17:10:43 | <lyxia> | __monty__: Have you seen uniplate https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniplate-1.6.13/docs/Data-Generics-Uniplate-Operations.html |
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| 17:16:42 | <__monty__> | lyxia: Hmm, that does look a lot like Pandoc's Walkable. |
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| 17:20:52 | <__monty__> | That might be as close as I can get to "generic recursive filtering." |
| 17:21:01 | <__monty__> | Thank you! |
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| 17:26:33 | <__monty__> | I do wonder why the `Str` type has `Zero`, `One a` and `Two (Str a) (Str a)`. It looks so much like `data Str a = One a | Many [Str a]`. |
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| 17:38:57 | <tomsmeding> | two fewer pointers if (<>) is dumb and just produces `Many [a,b]`? |
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| 17:39:26 | <tomsmeding> | three fewer pointers even -- to the list, to the second cons cell, and to the nil |
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| 17:51:53 | <__monty__> | But it saves pointers whenever you do have a list-like sequence of children, no/ |
| 17:51:56 | <__monty__> | *? |
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| 18:05:52 | <Enrico63> | Hi there! I've just created a pull request (https://github.com/haskell/haskeline/pull/207) for some fix to the haskeline library (that mimics the famous readline library), but the repo has no actual maintainer, but simply a custodian, so my PR can't be reviewed by them :( |
| 18:05:52 | <Enrico63> | I've posted the code on https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/298044/augment-vi-editing-mode-in-haskeline-by-implementing-the-and-commands so you can look at as an alternative to github. |
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| 18:06:59 | <Enrico63> | I would really be greatful if somebody could help me get that reviewed. Not because the feature is a big deal, but I'm without a job, and I want to get better at Haskell to eventually target some haskell job |
| 18:07:14 | <Enrico63> | And doing open source seems a way to learn, I suppose |
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| 18:23:18 | <__monty__> | Fair warning, if your priority is landing a job, focusing on Haskell is probably not the way. |
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| 18:24:25 | <[exa]> | (otoh don't get demotivated, saying "I can do haskell" helps :D ) |
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| 18:24:56 | <chromoblob> | "I can do Haskell but can't do anything other" |
| 18:25:21 | <[exa]> | s/can't/don't want to/ :D |
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| 18:25:31 | <chromoblob> | you are right |
| 18:26:02 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: just from the point of the reviewer, could you separate the commits into formatting changes and then actual changes by topic? (not part 1,2,...; these are kinda very anonymous) |
| 18:26:28 | <[exa]> | OTOH I have to say that some of the formatting changes there are for a very good reason :D |
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| 18:29:17 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: anyway the PR is open for literal 5 hours now and you got feedback already, I'd say wait a day or so and it's gonna get attention |
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| 18:31:29 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: oh wait you have very good comments in the longer commit messages, stupid me, sorry :D |
| 18:33:14 | <[exa]> | ^ actual reviewer simulation ^ |
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| 19:01:51 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: no it doesn't save pointers |
| 19:02:11 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/LCpzehi8 even with a dumb Zero at the end, it's one pointer less |
| 19:03:22 | <tomsmeding> | (because the Two is like (:)) |
| 19:03:46 | <tomsmeding> | if you had Many [a], then that would save some pointers |
| 19:07:35 | <int-e> | you kind of save the pointer to []: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EC4Txwvi |
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| 19:08:30 | <tomsmeding> | that's if you sensibly don't use Zero, yes |
| 19:09:51 | <int-e> | you'd save more if `One a` gets unpacked but that doesn't work with polymorphic types |
| 19:10:25 | <int-e> | and sure, you can "waste" pointers if you keep using `Zero`. |
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| 19:14:46 | <int-e> | Oh wait my second example is missing the `One` constructors. |
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| 19:46:05 | <__monty__> | I guess the real question is why do we even have [] and (:)? We should have Zero, One, Two : > |
| 19:47:13 | <tomsmeding> | because [] has O(1) head :p |
| 19:48:01 | <tomsmeding> | but if all you do is build a sequence up using Monoid operations and then fold over the thing once, that's unnecessary and something like Str works better |
| 19:48:12 | <tomsmeding> | I typically call this Bag |
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| 19:50:17 | <int-e> | __monty__: add Three and maybe Four and some inside-out zipper and you might get a finger tree |
| 19:50:57 | <__monty__> | They're called finger trees because they have a constructor for each of my fingers? : O |
| 19:51:27 | <tomsmeding> | (see also https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/cs257/archive/koen-claessen/finger-trees.pdf ) |
| 19:51:29 | <int-e> | I like to explain it as them having a huge middle finger. |
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| 19:52:10 | <int-e> | Anyway, what I said isn't too accurate... but there are some parts that actually fit. |
| 19:52:51 | <Enrico63> | [exa], you mean I should keep the fractioning of the change as I have done it? |
| 19:53:10 | <Enrico63> | ... just read your "oh wait" message. |
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| 20:03:32 | <monochrom> | We should have Zero, One, Two, Three, Four, Five, ... ad infinitum. Deeply magical built-in. |
| 20:04:10 | <int-e> | monochrom: it's called Array |
| 20:04:20 | <monochrom> | :( :D |
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| 20:16:44 | <__monty__> | Don't we call them tuples? |
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| 20:23:27 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: my point was that PRs should ideally be minimal, all the side changes in formatting are a kinda distraction for the reviewers |
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| 20:23:51 | <[exa]> | not a big issue (people can separate these mechanically i'd say) but it helps so much to have it prepared |
| 20:24:13 | <Enrico63> | I've separated the commits, thanks! |
| 20:24:19 | <Enrico63> | Is the reviewer you, btw? |
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| 20:36:31 | <[exa]> | Enrico63: no |
| 20:36:49 | <[exa]> | (I'd complain directly in the PR lol) |
| 20:38:10 | <EvanR> | monochrom, also add MinusOne and MinusTwo |
| 20:38:12 | <EvanR> | but that's it |
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| 21:01:16 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 21:08:11 | × | zarakshR quits (~Thunderbi@host5-81-134-212.range5-81.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: zarakshR) |
| 21:08:29 | → | zarakshR joins (~Thunderbi@host5-81-134-212.range5-81.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:12:02 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:12:24 | × | Lycurgus quits (~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: alsoknownas.renjuan.org ( juan@acm.org )) |
| 21:12:29 | × | haritz quits (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:12:39 | → | LainIwakura joins (~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) |
| 21:13:04 | × | zarakshR quits (~Thunderbi@host5-81-134-212.range5-81.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:13:21 | → | zarakshR joins (~Thunderbi@2a00:23c8:5bbb:e401::353) |
| 21:14:42 | → | jmcantrell_ joins (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) |
| 21:16:59 | × | LainIwakura quits (~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) (Client Quit) |
| 21:17:58 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-149-049.res.spectrum.com) |
| 21:18:40 | × | fp quits (~Thunderbi@2001-14ba-6e24-3000--198.rev.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:18:55 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 21:20:28 | → | ljdarj joins (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) |
| 21:20:58 | × | zarakshR quits (~Thunderbi@2a00:23c8:5bbb:e401::353) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 21:25:25 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:25:38 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 21:26:03 | × | Enrico63 quits (~Enrico63@2a0b:e541:10d0:0:9efc:e8ff:fe24:3213) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 21:30:05 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:32:11 | × | trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:33:03 | → | LainIwakura joins (~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) |
| 21:34:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 21:35:30 | × | target_i quits (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving) |
| 21:35:45 | × | chele quits (~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:36:15 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 21:36:33 | → | zarakshR joins (~Thunderbi@host5-81-134-212.range5-81.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:37:42 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-149-049.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 21:42:15 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:43:50 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 21:46:54 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 21:47:07 | × | zarakshR quits (~Thunderbi@host5-81-134-212.range5-81.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 21:57:38 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 21:57:38 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:57:54 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 22:00:12 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 22:02:28 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 22:02:57 | × | trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:04:05 | × | arandombit quits (~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 22:04:41 | → | gawen_ joins (~gawen@user/gawen) |
| 22:05:33 | × | gawen quits (~gawen@user/gawen) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 22:05:45 | → | jmcantre1 joins (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) |
| 22:10:12 | → | ss4 joins (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 22:10:48 | × | jmcantrell_ quits (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (*.net *.split) |
| 22:10:48 | × | rvalue quits (~rvalue@about/hackers/rvalue) (*.net *.split) |
| 22:10:48 | × | chromoblob quits (~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) (*.net *.split) |
| 22:10:48 | × | edwtjo quits (~edwtjo@fsf/member/edwtjo) (*.net *.split) |
| 22:10:48 | × | Katarushisu quits (~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 22:12:58 | × | LainIwakura quits (~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 22:13:01 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:13:27 | × | wootehfoot quits (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 22:14:10 | → | edwtjo joins (~edwtjo@h-155-4-52-101.A213.priv.bahnhof.se) |
| 22:14:10 | → | rvalue joins (~rvalue@about/hackers/rvalue) |
| 22:14:10 | × | edwtjo quits (~edwtjo@h-155-4-52-101.A213.priv.bahnhof.se) (Changing host) |
| 22:14:10 | → | edwtjo joins (~edwtjo@fsf/member/edwtjo) |
| 22:14:41 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 22:16:41 | × | __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 22:17:24 | → | arandombit joins (~arandombi@2603:7000:4600:ffbe:8c82:5f1d:5114:2a6f) |
| 22:17:24 | × | arandombit quits (~arandombi@2603:7000:4600:ffbe:8c82:5f1d:5114:2a6f) (Changing host) |
| 22:17:24 | → | arandombit joins (~arandombi@user/arandombit) |
| 22:17:45 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 22:18:49 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
| 22:26:51 | → | chromoblob joins (~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) |
| 22:27:32 | → | poscat joins (~poscat@user/poscat) |
| 22:28:24 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:29:06 | × | poscat0x04 quits (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 22:33:04 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 22:38:46 | → | LainIwakura joins (~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) |
| 22:41:50 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:46:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 22:52:05 | × | LainIwakura quits (~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 22:57:57 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:04:41 | × | sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f10bc004086942b78d8edfa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 23:04:48 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 23:09:15 | × | sindu quits (~sindu@176.75.108.200) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:11:41 | → | Googulator75 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-28ad-f9f3-8649-eb89-633c.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 23:15:29 | × | Googulator quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-28ad-f9f3-8649-eb89-633c.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 23:15:59 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:20:37 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 23:20:43 | → | mange joins (~mange@user/mange) |
| 23:22:29 | → | Everything joins (~Everythin@217.147.163.184) |
| 23:22:53 | × | ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:31:24 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:35:55 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:40:43 | × | Everything quits (~Everythin@217.147.163.184) (Quit: leaving) |
| 23:43:56 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 23:46:54 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:51:29 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 23:57:23 | → | zarakshR joins (~Thunderbi@host5-81-134-212.range5-81.btcentralplus.com) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-09-03.