Logs on 2025-09-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:13:26 | <Square3> | Why does `Proxy :: Proxy Foo` in GHCI yield a a value that has a Typeable instance, even if Foo doesn't have one? |
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| 07:15:42 | <tomsmeding> | Square3: are you sure that Foo doesn't have a Typeable instance? |
| 07:16:18 | <tomsmeding> | GHC magically generates Typeable instances for all data type declarations these days |
| 07:20:37 | <tomsmeding> | Square3: if you generate Core for this https://play.haskell.org/saved/3XxgXHMy you'll see the Eq stuff is generated, but also Typeable |
| 07:21:32 | <Square3> | tomsmeding, yes. I'm sure it doesn't derive Typeable |
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| 07:22:01 | <Square3> | i can do `typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Foo)` at least. *shrug* |
| 07:22:24 | <tomsmeding> | I'm fairly sure your Foo does have a Typeable instance |
| 07:22:35 | <tomsmeding> | it's just not being shown in the :i output, and I'm not sure why |
| 07:23:00 | <mauke> | should be easy to test with Foo directly |
| 07:23:01 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think it is possible to define a data type in ghc haskell that does _not_ implement Typeable |
| 07:27:16 | <Square3> | so ghci automatically adds it? |
| 07:27:52 | <tomsmeding> | ghc automatically adds it |
| 07:27:57 | <tomsmeding> | ghci is just an interactive interface to ghc |
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| 07:28:34 | <tomsmeding> | and it seems GHC also blindly assumes it's there |
| 07:28:47 | <tomsmeding> | there is a flag to GHC that tells it to not generate Typeable instances: -dno-typeable-binds |
| 07:29:07 | <tomsmeding> | if you do that and then proceed to use Typeable stuff, GHC raises an internal error, lol |
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| 07:56:12 | <Square3> | tomsmeding, (sorry had a meeting) thanks. Well that explains it. |
| 07:58:05 | <Square3> | > Since GHC 7.10, all types automatically have Typeable instances derived. This is in contrast to previous releases where Typeable had to be explicitly derived using the DeriveDataTypeable language extension. |
| 07:58:06 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:15: error: parse error on input ‘,’ |
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| 09:50:04 | <Franciman> | Lycurgus: thanks a lot . Neat AF |
| 09:50:18 | <Lycurgus> | yw |
| 09:50:27 | <Franciman> | i'll try curry |
| 09:50:52 | <Franciman> | re. switch from lisp to java, reason is: make industry look at you and like you |
| 09:50:54 | <Franciman> | imho |
| 09:51:10 | <Lycurgus> | yeah, actually most onto stuffs are java |
| 09:51:22 | <Lycurgus> | for enterprise reasons |
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| 09:52:00 | <Lycurgus> | altho most of the older stuff like LOOM was lisp or prolog |
| 09:52:14 | <Lycurgus> | ontosaurus and the like |
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| 10:33:55 | ski | . o O ( OpenCyc ) |
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| 14:59:28 | <ncf> | which language extension is responsible for the following syntax: x :: Foo = bar ? |
| 15:00:22 | <ncf> | ah, ScopedTypeVariables |
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| 16:20:41 | ski | kinda would like a separate `PatternSignatures' |
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| 16:38:31 | <haskellbridge> | <geekosaur> Originally it was |
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| 16:54:33 | <ski> | yea, i know |
| 16:55:48 | <ski> | .. also waiting for `id @a (x :: a) :: a = x' / `\ @a (x :: a) -> x :: a' |
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| 18:16:57 | <monochrom> | ScopedAndPatternTypeSignatures :) |
| 18:17:51 | <monochrom> | SystemFSyntax >:) |
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| 18:21:25 | <tomsmeding> | if you supply a type signature, you can already do something like the second |
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| 18:21:35 | <tomsmeding> | % foo :: a -> a ; foo @a (x :: a) = x |
| 18:21:35 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:55:21: error: [GHC-78249] ; Illegal invisible type pattern: a ; Suggested fix: ; Perhaps you intended to use the ‘TypeAbstractions’ extension ; You may enable this... |
| 18:21:41 | <tomsmeding> | % :seti -XTypeAbstractions |
| 18:21:41 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 18:21:43 | <tomsmeding> | % foo :: a -> a ; foo @a (x :: a) = x |
| 18:21:43 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 18:21:48 | <tomsmeding> | % foo :: a -> a ; foo @a (x :: b) = x |
| 18:21:48 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 18:21:50 | <tomsmeding> | oh |
| 18:22:05 | <monochrom> | "no news is good news" :) |
| 18:22:10 | <monochrom> | % foo 4 |
| 18:22:11 | <yahb2> | 4 |
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| 18:22:46 | <[exa]> | Franciman: btw what are you doing with ontologies? (curious, /me gonna hit that issue later this year) |
| 18:23:10 | <tomsmeding> | bah both the @a and the ::a bind a in the RHS |
| 18:23:36 | <tomsmeding> | but the `\@a (x :: a) -> x :: a` syntax that ski was asking for would be highly ambiguous in haskell where you have automatic generalisation :) |
| 18:24:14 | <tomsmeding> | (if you write `foo @a (x :: b) = RHS` then both a and b are in scope in RHS, and are equal) |
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| 19:41:00 | <ski> | "if you supply a type signature, you can already do something like the second" -- i tried this, recently, didn't look good in that case |
| 19:41:28 | <ski> | oh, and i don't necessarily want plain `PatternSignatures' to bind tyvars, really |
| 19:42:01 | <ski> | (the `\ @a ..a.. -> ..a..' obviously would, though) |
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| 19:44:41 | <ski> | % let foo :: Int -> Bool; foo (n :: a) = n == (0 :: a) in foo 42 |
| 19:44:41 | <yahb2> | False |
| 19:45:14 | <ski> | this is kinda confusing. istr something similar being discussed in some ML |
| 19:45:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 19:45:45 | <geekosaur> | looks like pre-6.4 scoped tyvars |
| 19:46:09 | <ski> | mm |
| 19:46:55 | <ski> | hm |
| 19:46:57 | <ski> | fun foo (m : int) (n : 'a) = m <> n; |
| 19:46:59 | <tomsmeding> | I also think binding type variables via a type annotation in a pattern is a bit odd, but that's what the extension does now |
| 19:47:03 | <ski> | in SML gives type error |
| 19:47:27 | <tomsmeding> | and, to be honest, it's useful sometimes |
| 19:47:59 | <tomsmeding> | (though typically one would be able to get away with a type application to a constructor pattern) |
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| 19:48:57 | <tomsmeding> | % foo (Just @a x) = x :: a -- ski: do you also think this is bad? |
| 19:48:57 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 19:50:18 | <ski> | fun ('a,'b) map f [] = [] | map f (x::xs) = f x :: map f xs; |
| 19:50:21 | <ski> | works |
| 19:51:03 | <ski> | tomsmeding : yea, that would be my preferred way, for existentials |
| 19:52:07 | <ski> | tomsmeding : no, since `a' there is skolem |
| 19:52:55 | <ski> | hm |
| 19:52:57 | <ski> | let foo (m : int) (n : 'a) = m <> n;; |
| 19:53:03 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding still don't have my irc bridge, but quickie question. Are you at all familiar with implementing the STG? I want to try to implement a nix evaluator using an STG |
| 19:53:16 | <ski> | in OCaml (similarly confusingly) works |
| 19:53:24 | <ski> | that's probably the one i was thinking of |
| 19:53:26 | <tomsmeding> | ski: to me, `foo (Just @a x) = x :: a` and `foo (Just x :: Maybe a) = x :: a` feel about the same in terms of "weird scoping" |
| 19:53:49 | <tomsmeding> | with `foo @a (Just x) = x :: a` being materially different |
| 19:54:13 | <ski> | tomsmeding : i agree |
| 19:54:20 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: I have 0.0001 idea of how STG works |
| 19:54:35 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: check this https://github.com/quchen/stgi |
| 19:54:46 | <ski> | but what i was on about was having a type variable that didn't stand for a skolem, there, but some specific type |
| 19:55:01 | <tomsmeding> | not sure how up to date it is with the latest version of STG in GHC, but when I found it long ago I thought it was a neat way to at least illustrate the ideas |
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| 19:55:41 | <tomsmeding> | ski: right, my first two examples work just fine with ghc even if `foo :: Maybe Int -> Int` |
| 19:55:58 | <ski> | right |
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| 19:56:10 | <tomsmeding> | is that what you mean? |
| 19:56:10 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tomsmeding im reading the original paper and its very readable. But ill try stgi once I actually start putting down rust code |
| 19:56:15 | <ski> | i wouldn't object to it, if `_a' was used instead of `a' |
| 19:56:54 | <tomsmeding> | is that like Agda's `.a' syntax, a pattern that doesn't match but is fully determined by other patterns? |
| 19:57:17 | <ski> | idea being that `_a' is an arbitrary meta-variable (/ logic variable / dataflow variable), which can stand for some specific type |
| 19:57:24 | <ski> | no |
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| 19:58:01 | <tomsmeding> | but would you then not also want the syntax to really be `foo (Just @_a _x) = x :: a`? |
| 19:58:14 | <tomsmeding> | because that _x is also a pattern variable that stands for some specific value |
| 19:58:42 | <ski> | if you type `id :: forall a. a -> a; id x = x' (not having `ScopedTypeVariables' in mind here, really), then `a' here (type of `x') is a skolem, can't be unified with any other type |
| 19:59:27 | <ski> | if you instead type `id x = x' (no explicit signature), then type inferred for `id' is `_a -> _a', which is then *generalized* to `forall a. a -> a' |
| 20:00:22 | <ski> | in the MLs, in some cases, the generalization part does not happen. then, the `_a' might get instantiated later, refining the type signature, fixing `_a' to something more specific |
| 20:00:27 | <tomsmeding> | ski: ah you're specifically thinking about the case where there is no type signature? |
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| 20:01:03 | <ski> | (SML/NJ simply replaces it with an unknown abstract data type, `?.X1',&c. in unknown module `?', doesn't allow later refinement in this way) |
| 20:01:16 | <ski> | i'm talking about both, tomsmeding |
| 20:01:27 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 20:01:55 | <ski> | but explaining what i mean by `_a' here, why i think it'd be okay for `foo :: Int -> Bool; foo (n :: _a) = n == (0 :: _a)' |
| 20:02:24 | <tomsmeding> | oh I see |
| 20:02:29 | <ski> | because it's a clear hint that `_a' may not be abstract/opaque/forgotten/hidden/skolem |
| 20:02:48 | <tomsmeding> | that _a is a unification variable that then gets unified with Int when the type signature is applied |
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| 20:03:14 | <ski> | yes |
| 20:03:18 | <tomsmeding> | in contrast to, in your idealised syntax, `foo (n :: a) = ...` which would require that `a` is a skolem |
| 20:03:26 | <ski> | or, would also work without the type signature |
| 20:03:31 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 20:03:32 | <ski> | yes |
| 20:03:38 | <tomsmeding> | that distinction makes sense to me |
| 20:04:07 | <ski> | `a' wouldn't need to be bound at `foo', though. could be bound by some surrounding context |
| 20:04:08 | <tomsmeding> | but I'm not sure that distinction would be helpful in practice in writing haskell code |
| 20:04:14 | <tomsmeding> | sure |
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| 20:05:05 | <tomsmeding> | the only reason I write type signatures or type applications in patterns in haskell is to bind type variables to be used in the body, really |
| 20:05:07 | <ski> | `_a' would kinda be useful for partial type signatures |
| 20:05:22 | <tomsmeding> | because ScopedTypeVariables' `forall`-based syntax is iffy |
| 20:05:34 | <ski> | where you don't want to specify some part of the signature, letting be inferred. but specifying that one part needs to be the same as another part |
| 20:05:43 | <tomsmeding> | right, it's when you explicitly skip part (or all) of a type signature that this becomes relevant |
| 20:05:58 | <ski> | yea, `forall' behaves the opposite of what i would expect, with `ScopedTypeVariables' |
| 20:06:18 | <tomsmeding> | but IMO, if you care about the details of what type variables get generalised and which don't, it's much better for readability if you write out the type signature anyway |
| 20:06:29 | <tomsmeding> | yeah forall with ScopedTypeVariables is bonkers |
| 20:06:29 | <ski> | foo :: _a -> _a -> ... |
| 20:06:34 | <ski> | foo x y = ... |
| 20:06:56 | <tomsmeding> | oh, PartialTypeSignatures++? |
| 20:07:17 | <ski> | yep, this would act as an enhancement, to that |
| 20:07:22 | <tomsmeding> | I like my type signatures :p |
| 20:07:46 | <tomsmeding> | I agree that that would be a sensible extension to PartialTypeSignatures, but I wouldn't use it |
| 20:08:16 | <ski> | i'd like to have the option to have either a separate type signature, or ascriptions on the parameter patterns and the definiendum |
| 20:08:43 | <tomsmeding> | "I needed to give just this little bit of extra info for the compiler to typecheck my code, but I'm not going to give you the luxury of just seeing the resulting inferred type in one place!" |
| 20:09:01 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 20:09:33 | <tomsmeding> | being able to forgo a type signature if you fully specify types of the patterns and the RHS would make lots of people happy |
| 20:09:47 | <tomsmeding> | having types next to the arguments instead of in a disconnected list is helpful |
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| 20:10:11 | <ski> | the other thing i was pondering, when i wanted `\ @a ..a.. -> ..a..', was how to specify constraints here |
| 20:10:36 | <ski> | (without needing to put in a separate signature, or an ascription on the whole thing) |
| 20:10:39 | <tomsmeding> | if you're going System-F-style, it would be a separate argument |
| 20:10:46 | <ski> | yes |
| 20:10:52 | <tomsmeding> | `\ @a (Eq a) ..a.. -> ..a..' |
| 20:11:00 | <tomsmeding> | which, well, is not haskell-y :p |
| 20:11:31 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps `\ @a {Eq a} ..a.. -> ..a..' would make more sense, to syntactically distinguish it from a normal argument |
| 20:11:40 | <tomsmeding> | except that {} is taken for records |
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| 20:11:55 | <ski> | \ @a (Eq a) => \..a.. -> ..a.. -- hmm |
| 20:12:09 | <ski> | yea, was just thinking about curlies |
| 20:12:20 | <tomsmeding> | \ @a (Eq a) => \ @b (Ord b) => \..a..b.. -> ..a..b.. |
| 20:12:22 | <tomsmeding> | meh |
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| 20:12:55 | <ski> | there's also the issue that `\(Just x) (Just y) -> ..x..y..' is distinct from `\(Just x) -> (Just y) -> ..x..y..' .. |
| 20:12:59 | <ski> | er |
| 20:13:07 | × | chele_ quits (~chele@user/chele) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 20:13:10 | <ski> | from `\(Just x) -> \(Just y) -> ..x..y..' .. |
| 20:13:16 | <tomsmeding> | is it? |
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| 20:14:19 | <ski> | > seq ((\(Just x) (Just y) -> x + y) Nothing) () |
| 20:14:20 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 20:14:21 | <ski> | > seq ((\(Just x) -> \(Just y) -> x + y) Nothing) () |
| 20:14:22 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <interactive>:3:7-37: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda |
| 20:14:40 | <tomsmeding> | er wat |
| 20:14:48 | <tomsmeding> | interesting, TIL |
| 20:15:01 | <ski> | in the former, pattern-matching happens only when both parameters are provided |
| 20:15:05 | <tomsmeding> | I didn't know that the arity distinction of GHC leaked out into the semantics |
| 20:15:10 | <tomsmeding> | is this specified in the report or GHC-specific? |
| 20:15:13 | <ski> | this is not observable, without `seq' |
| 20:15:18 | <ski> | i don't recall |
| 20:16:01 | <ski> | anyway, due to this, i'd prefer to not have to write multiple `\'s, above, with the dicts |
| 20:17:08 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 20:17:20 | <tomsmeding> | I _think_ this is specified in the report? But I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly |
| 20:17:24 | <tomsmeding> | https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-260003.3 |
| 20:17:30 | <tomsmeding> | the line below the 'Translation' box |
| 20:17:46 | <tomsmeding> | "the pattern" presumably referring to the (p1, ..., pn) tuple pattern |
| 20:18:01 | <ski> | mm, yea, i think so |
| 20:18:03 | <tomsmeding> | which is a thing that cannot be checked until all x1, ..., xn have a value |
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| 20:19:54 | <ski> | kinda apropos here .. i still also want to be able to declare `data' and `newtype's inside `where's and `let'-`in's, including also `instance's for them (and probably also `class'es). and these ought to be able to refer nonlocally to tyvars that are in scope |
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| 20:27:55 | <__monty__> | Let's just have Agdas modules. I think they cover those use cases and more. |
| 20:28:13 | <__monty__> | *Agda's |
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| 20:49:11 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:298e:6063:53dd:ee4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 21:04:20 | × | takuan quits (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:46:30 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-09-08.