Logs on 2025-09-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 08:13:45 | <ggVGc> | We have a book club at work, and our main development languages are Scala and TS. The others don't have that much experience in general with strong typing and powerful type systems, and only me and one other person really knows Scala "well". I would like propose a book which tackles type system things and basic type theory, without being too hardcore for the book club. Any advice? |
| 08:14:26 | <ggVGc> | Haskell based book would be fine, as long as it doesn't start with "let's discuss a monad" |
| 08:15:02 | <ggVGc> | I'm thinking something like SICP but for type systems, I guess |
| 08:16:04 | <sm> | maybe one of these: https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books > design ? |
| 08:17:39 | <merijn> | ggVGc: How hardcore do you wanna go? |
| 08:19:00 | <sm> | tcard__ it's confusing having Author: Travis Cardwell on every book page, right above the book's published date, additional to the actual book authors on the left |
| 08:20:08 | <merijn> | oh, wait, you wanted "not to hardcore" |
| 08:20:44 | <sm> | (and/or one of these: https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books > implementation) |
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| 08:25:19 | <sm> | pretty good reviews for this one: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/112252.Types_and_Programming_Languages |
| 08:28:41 | <merijn> | I was gonna say TaPL, but I would call that rather hardcore :p |
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| 08:47:20 | <[exa]> | ggVGc: /me votes for girard |
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| 08:50:35 | <ggVGc> | merijn: yeah, as not-hardcore as possible basically, while still being not-crap :) |
| 08:50:39 | <ggVGc> | thanks for the suggestions! |
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| 09:05:25 | <ski> | hm, there's one "Thinking with Types: Type-Level Programming Haskell" by Sandy Maguire in 2019-01-10 at <https://thinkingwithtypes.com/>,<https://leanpub.com/thinking-with-types/> |
| 09:05:46 | <ski> | (i haven't read it) |
| 09:07:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books/thinking-with-types - maybe that one should have the design tag tcard__ ? |
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| 09:12:16 | <ski> | ggVGc : "Polymorphic Type Inference" by Michael I. Schwartzbach in 1995-03 at <https://cs.au.dk/~amoeller/mis/typeinf.pdf> might be worth checking out (not a book, though, just a paper (intended to be more introductory/tutorial). with some exercises) |
| 09:12:48 | <ski> | there's also "On Understanding Types, Data Abstraction, and Polymorphism" by Luca Cardelli,Peter Wegner in 1985-12 at <http://lucacardelli.name/Papers/OnUnderstanding.A4.pdf>, and "On Understanding Data Abstraction, Revisited" by William R. Cook in 2009-10 at <https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/Drafts/2009/essay.pdf> |
| 09:13:20 | <merijn> | ggVGc: Also, Scala 2 or 3? |
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| 09:18:49 | <ggVGc> | merijn: 3, fortunately, but unfortunately the existing code uses Akka without really undrstanding/liking actors, so it's basically just used as a http router |
| 09:19:08 | <ggVGc> | while other concurrency stuff is done in good ol java way, but in scala |
| 09:19:17 | <ggVGc> | with locking queues etc |
| 09:19:27 | <Franciman> | [exa]: i'm studying automated deduction for ontologies. which book by girard? |
| 09:19:34 | <Franciman> | (two unrelated things) |
| 09:20:01 | <ggVGc> | Franciman: so.... rdf? |
| 09:20:12 | <Franciman> | rdf and OWL |
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| 09:20:27 | <ggVGc> | sounds a lot like my job :) |
| 09:21:24 | <Franciman> | what's your job? |
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| 09:23:36 | <ski> | i wonder about "The Little Typer" by Daniel P. Friedman,David Thrane Christiansen in 2018 at <https://thelittletyper.com/>,<https://www.amazon.com/Little-Typer-MIT-Press/dp/0262536439>,<https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262536431/the-little-typer/>,<https://felleisen.org/matthias/BTypist-index.html> |
| 09:24:28 | <ggVGc> | Franciman: Basically building this, https://data.icos-cp.eu/portal/. I started fairly recently (dec last year), and have been on parental leave since May, and am back on 20% since last month, so have not been part of much of what's there yet. But, there's a lot of work to be done :) https://github.com/ICOS-Carbon-Portal/meta |
| 09:24:50 | <ggVGc> | Franciman: my main goal right now is to replace out RDF datastore with SQL+Ontop, actually. |
| 09:25:26 | <ggVGc> | because right now we have a custom index, and custom SPQRQL query rewriting, and it's a bit of a mess imo, and seems to currently also have consistency issues. |
| 09:25:35 | <ski> | Franciman : perhaps "Proofs and Types" by Jean-Yves Girard (Translated and with appendices by Paul Taylor,Yves Lafont) in 1989,1990,2003 at <https://www.paultaylor.eu/stable/prot.pdf> |
| 09:25:50 | <tcard__> | sm: Regarding the author confusion, thanks for the feedback. I am making a note. I implemented that Haskell books content using my articles system, but it is indeed not a great match. I hope to improve it in the future. |
| 09:26:33 | <ggVGc> | ski: you bring up a good idea of suggesting to the book club that we can sometimes read shorter papers and discuss them. Will try to see if that flies |
| 09:26:47 | <ggVGc> | I would almost prefer a "paper group" rather than a book club, I think |
| 09:27:02 | <ggVGc> | smaller investment, covering more ground |
| 09:27:03 | <ski> | ggVGc : i'd think the Schwartzbach paper, at least, would be worth looking into |
| 09:27:40 | <ski> | it includes some info that most papers on type systems assumes, but does not state outright |
| 09:28:13 | <merijn> | ggVGc: At least 3 has rank2 types :> |
| 09:28:29 | <ggVGc> | haha, oh man, I'd heard about The little typer, but starting to talk about dependent types seems a bit too soon for this group |
| 09:28:35 | <ggVGc> | I may want to read it personally though... |
| 09:28:47 | <ski> | yea, i haven't seen "The Little Typer", either |
| 09:28:48 | <ggVGc> | But I have 4mo old twins now, so maybe in... 10 years? |
| 09:30:31 | <ski> | but that series (see <https://felleisen.org/matthias/BTLS-index.html>. also apparently <https://www.thelittlelearner.com/>) has an interesting didactive approach, with examples and exercises |
| 09:30:52 | <ggVGc> | merijn: yeah, but it also has this, https://docs.scala-lang.org/scala3/reference/other-new-features/indentation.html. So, you know, win some lose some. |
| 09:31:27 | <ski> | if the "Thinking with Types" is not too advanced (not sure), might be useful as well |
| 09:31:47 | <ggVGc> | I know that is a controversial statement in #haskell (about significant indentation). But, I think it works very poorly in Scala. |
| 09:31:50 | <ggVGc> | being added on like that |
| 09:31:55 | <ski> | merijn : but not higher rank ? |
| 09:32:30 | <ggVGc> | actually not a huge fan of significant whitespace in Haskell either, but it works out alright most of the time |
| 09:32:41 | <ggVGc> | without the type system it would be a disaster |
| 09:33:06 | <merijn> | ski: I'm not sure if it supports higher rank, I'm still in the business of migrating us from 2 to 3 :) |
| 09:33:17 | <merijn> | And I've only needed/wanted rank2 so far |
| 09:33:55 | <ski> | mm, looks like it introduces layout block, more generally, than just after a few keywords (as in Haskell) ? |
| 09:34:01 | ski | nods |
| 09:34:04 | <Franciman> | ggVGc: can I pm you? |
| 09:34:05 | <ggVGc> | yeah |
| 09:34:08 | <ggVGc> | Franciman: sure |
| 09:34:21 | <ski> | ggVGc : hm, i'm not seeing how the types are related to layout ? |
| 09:34:30 | <ggVGc> | ski: I definitely do not like it, but the person who wrote most of the code I'm currently working on does like it. |
| 09:34:55 | <ski> | i guess, if you don't get the nesting structure you intend, you're more likely to get a type (or scope) error ? |
| 09:35:28 | <ggVGc> | ski: yo umean about my statement regarding haskell? I mean that, with a powerful language like Haskell where you can write very terse code, if you don't also have the type system helping you out, things subtle indentation errors can become major difficulties |
| 09:35:40 | <ski> | ggVGc : it kinda reminds me of the various SRFIs for indentation-based nesting syntax, for Scheme (which, afaik, none has really caught on much at all) |
| 09:36:00 | <ski> | ggVGc : "without the type system it would be a disaster" specifically |
| 09:36:02 | <arahael> | merijn: Hey, I am curious about the code in posix-pty, why is it not possible to get the pty's Fd? |
| 09:36:15 | <arahael> | merijn: (It's not important, I'm just curious) |
| 09:37:11 | <ggVGc> | ski: well, I've had situations in Haskell where I get a type error I find super odd and can't easily see why it's happening, and then I realise it's because I've messed up an application of something, sometimes because of messed up indentation |
| 09:37:25 | <merijn> | arahael: because it's code I wrote in 2013 when I barely new Haskell and never gotten around to actually using it for what I wrote it :p |
| 09:37:27 | <ggVGc> | and if I didn't have the type system, I'd get some strange runtime error instead |
| 09:37:29 | <ggVGc> | which would be a lot worse |
| 09:37:34 | <arahael> | merijn: Heh, fair enough! |
| 09:37:35 | <ggVGc> | could* |
| 09:37:47 | <merijn> | arahael: So there wasn't much specific thought going into it |
| 09:38:06 | <arahael> | merijn: Nice, so you were probably trying to do data/implementation hiding and all that good stuff. |
| 09:38:08 | <merijn> | arahael: I think it's mostly to prevent construction of Pty from random Fd |
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| 09:38:24 | <merijn> | But I didn't think to need to project the Fd |
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| 09:38:38 | <arahael> | Ah, and I was trying to get the Fd from the Pty, so that I could ask it to see if there was data without blocking on it. |
| 09:38:43 | <ggVGc> | ski: but, what I very much dislike about the Scala3 significant indentation is that 'foo:\n\t123' means foo(123). |
| 09:38:46 | <ggVGc> | that is horrible |
| 09:38:52 | <arahael> | As it turns out there was another way to do it so no biggie. |
| 09:39:15 | <arahael> | (The other way being to spawn a thread anyway. And I've been learning about threads in Haskell as a consequence!) |
| 09:39:31 | <merijn> | arahael: If you make a PR that provides `Pty -> Fd` I'd make a new release |
| 09:39:56 | <arahael> | merijn: One day. One day. :) |
| 09:40:23 | <arahael> | It turns out it's not actually required, and it's probably better to block on it anyway. |
| 09:40:31 | <merijn> | ggVGc: The thing I hate is that for yield makes me write "_ <-" in front of every line whose return I don't care about |
| 09:40:48 | <merijn> | please god, lemme just write code without _ <- like in Haskell :( |
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| 09:54:08 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: make a keyboard macro that inserts '_ <- ' |
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| 09:54:34 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: That still makes it ugly to read |
| 09:54:35 | <tomsmeding> | for a while I was using a programmable keyboard (moved away again for unrelated reasons) and I had keys for -> <- => <= |
| 09:54:48 | <tomsmeding> | it was nice :p |
| 09:54:52 | <tomsmeding> | that's true |
| 09:55:17 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: are there so many functions that return useless results then? |
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| 09:55:40 | <tomsmeding> | in Haskell, I find that usually if there is a non-() return value, you want to use it -- not always, but often enough that '_ <-' is not _too_ common |
| 09:56:12 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: you have to write _ <- for unit returns too |
| 09:56:18 | <tomsmeding> | oh lol |
| 09:56:25 | <tomsmeding> | that's stupid |
| 09:56:58 | <ski> | ggVGc : "what I very much dislike .. " -- yea. i hear ya. that's because it's a retro-fit, so no layout-introducing keywords |
| 09:58:21 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Exactly! |
| 09:59:28 | <tomsmeding> | use your units |
| 10:00:15 | ski | . o O ( `(void)printf("...",...);' ) |
| 10:00:21 | <ggVGc> | merijn: oh yeah, that one sucks arse |
| 10:00:36 | <tomsmeding> | imagine you actually have to use all your units too, combining them with (<>) to build your own unit return |
| 10:00:54 | <ggVGc> | merijn: Also, Option.foreach makes me vomit a bit each time. |
| 10:02:06 | <tomsmeding> | % for (Just 42) print |
| 10:02:07 | <yahb2> | 42 ; Just () |
| 10:02:19 | <merijn> | ggVGc: I never use that |
| 10:02:29 | <merijn> | ggVGc: We're using ZIO almost everywhere |
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| 10:20:11 | <ski> | SML has |
| 10:20:21 | <ski> | val ignore : unit -> 'a |
| 10:20:45 | <ski> | imho, that would be a better name for |
| 10:20:50 | <ski> | void :: Functor f => f a -> f () |
| 10:21:17 | <ski> | er .. mixed up domain and codomain of the `ignore' .. |
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| 10:37:53 | <kqr> | I'm trying to cabal build --enable-profiling my project, and I get an error that "Could not find module ‘Control.Seq’. Perhaps you haven't installed the profiling libraries for package ‘parallel-3.2.2.0’?" This was not a problem when I compiled without profiling. I'm not explicitly depending on parallel (it c is pulled in by the lens build). What am I doing wrong? |
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| 10:40:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> To build with profiling, unfortunately you have to have every transitive dependency also built with profiling. Often this isn't done by default so you have to force a reinstall of all of them |
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| 10:41:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I'm surprised if cabal build --enable-profiling doesn't recognise that, like stack build --profile |
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| 10:58:30 | <kqr> | I see. Can I give cabal a flag to reinstall it or am I hunting them down individually and trying to install globally or what is the best solution there? |
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| 11:17:03 | <kaol> | I suppose there's no way to make Proxy to show its type? |
| 11:17:23 | <dminuoso> | kaol: What do you mean by "make it show its type"? |
| 11:18:29 | <kaol> | show (Proxy :: Proxy String) == "Proxy" is less than satisfying if I want to know that it's being used on a String. |
| 11:19:00 | <dminuoso> | kaol: You can do something like `showProxy :: Typeable a => Proxy a -> String` |
| 11:19:34 | <dminuoso> | Not quite sure what your goal is |
| 11:20:23 | <kaol> | Debug a piece of code that uses type classes and I have no idea where the execution goes since I don't know what type the particular Proxy is. |
| 11:20:57 | <dminuoso> | So the best you can do is constraint it to Typeable and do something like `show . typeOf` |
| 11:21:30 | <dminuoso> | Or well, `show . typeRep` rather |
| 11:21:59 | <dminuoso> | Debugging constraint resolving is tough |
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| 11:23:04 | <mauke> | this is why hls integration |
| 11:23:37 | <dminuoso> | Right, or use GHCi to a similar effect |
| 11:23:42 | <dminuoso> | :k is a thing |
| 11:23:43 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 11:23:43 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type variable ‘is’ |
| 11:23:43 | <lambdabot> | Perhaps you meant type constructor or class ‘As’ (imported from Control.Lens) |
| 11:23:49 | <dminuoso> | Thanks. |
| 11:24:24 | <kaol> | show . typeRep and adding a few Typeable constraints got me what I was looking for. Thanks. |
| 11:26:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> kqr I don't know, I would ask in #hackage |
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| 11:29:15 | <kaol> | Interesting. servant-client-core is somehow trying to decode latin1. My server is sending utf8. |
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| 11:29:57 | <dminuoso> | kaol: It respects Content-Type. |
| 11:30:10 | <dminuoso> | The actual encoding is irrelevant, there's no heuristics. |
| 11:30:10 | <kaol> | Well it has a bug. Content-Type is correct. |
| 11:30:30 | <dminuoso> | Mmm. That sounds surprising. |
| 11:30:30 | <merijn> | How can you even tell? Pretty sure latin-1 is a subset of utf-8, no? |
| 11:31:09 | <merijn> | ah, no only for the first 127 values, which makes sense I suppose |
| 11:31:16 | <kaol> | I'm using servant-jsaddle which is little used, I guess. At least the offending decode happens on servant-client-core's side. |
| 11:31:56 | <mauke> | it's when you send €, but you get â�¬ |
| 11:32:10 | <kaol> | I specifically have "ö" in my test body which is in latin1 and I unpacked the body just to see the digits and it is there indeed as single byte latin1. |
| 11:33:12 | <dminuoso> | kaol: can you share you API specification here? |
| 11:35:12 | <kaol> | I started with servant-client-js instead of servant-jsaddle and it didn't have encoding problems but it was incapable of handling basic authentication which made me switch. I'm starting to think that returning back and just improving its error handling is an easier path. |
| 11:35:24 | <dminuoso> | kaol: So the servant code itself does not do any latin1 decoding. |
| 11:35:34 | <dminuoso> | Im fairly sure its outside of servant. |
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| 11:36:58 | <ski> | kaol : you could make it show `Proxy :: Proxy <type>' |
| 11:37:01 | <kaol> | I know someone's calling this decodeAs with Proxy :: Proxy JSON with latin1. |
| 11:37:11 | <ski> | or `Proxy @<type>' |
| 11:37:47 | <kaol> | I found out the type already. |
| 11:37:56 | <ski> | merijn : depends on encoding |
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| 11:38:55 | <dminuoso> | kaol: Well whereever the mojibake happens, servant has no code path through which it even could decode latin1. |
| 11:39:00 | <kqr> | sm: Cheers, will do! |
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| 11:40:03 | <dminuoso> | kaol: c.f. https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/servant-0.20.3.0/docs/Servant-API.html#t:MimeUnrender |
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| 11:41:40 | <dminuoso> | Now of course maybe there's an additional type tag with a MimeUnrender instance that uses latin1 in your dependency closure. |
| 11:41:50 | <dminuoso> | But it would outside of any of the official servant packages. |
| 11:42:56 | <kaol> | I suspect there's something wrong with servant-jsaddle since servant-client-js doesn't come up with latin1. And servant-jsaddle is an official servant package. |
| 11:43:32 | <dminuoso> | fsvo "official servant package" |
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| 11:44:12 | <dminuoso> | But jsaddle has no custom MimeUnrender instances either. |
| 11:44:21 | <dminuoso> | Like I said, it would be easiest if you just shared your API specification |
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| 11:46:38 | <kaol> | I'll make a small example something out of this. |
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| 13:16:43 | <kaol> | dminuoso: I can show the complete example program if you like but I verified that I can get the decoding bug with just this API: type API = "asdfasdf.json" :> Get '[JSON] Text |
| 13:17:07 | <kaol> | I didn't expect anything other from doing this really. |
| 13:17:47 | <kaol> | I guess WASM is bleeding edge and I get both pieces if it breaks. |
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| 13:21:23 | <Guest89> | Can you give me some help. I was born in 1992, studied Computer Science from 2012 to 2019, and currently studying english BA at university. I have 3 more years to graduate. I was wondering what path I could take and how so I can get myself admitted to a Computer Science PhD by 2028. I love haskell, but wondering if it would help to build hobby |
| 13:21:24 | <Guest89> | softwares like text based games, or scrapers or compilers with haskell. Most realistically I am lost and looking for remote opportunities from this platform. |
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| 13:25:06 | <tomsmeding> | Guest89: I feel like that depends on what kind of PhD you want to get into. What kind of research do you enjoy? |
| 13:25:21 | <Guest89> | Computer Engineering, Electronics |
| 13:26:00 | <tomsmeding> | "electronics" sounds more like electrical engineering than computer science. I'm not sure what you mean with "computer engineering" |
| 13:27:35 | <tomsmeding> | Especially once you get to PhD level, every field that seems from the outset to be mostly coherent ("computer science", for example), fragments in a very broad spectrum of little topics and interests |
| 13:27:37 | <Guest89> | Yeah basically Electronics. But I need to study it on my own now. I took Digital Logic class as part of CS degree. |
| 13:28:05 | <tomsmeding> | do you aspire being a CPU designer at some point? |
| 13:28:06 | <Guest89> | Embedded device programming, SDK Development are nice |
| 13:28:16 | <Guest89> | How, in such short time? I am 33 now |
| 13:28:17 | <tomsmeding> | or more embedded programming? |
| 13:28:35 | <tomsmeding> | I'm trying to probe what your interests are |
| 13:28:37 | <Guest89> | I have no clue about CPU Designing |
| 13:28:48 | <merijn> | Also, why do you wanna do a phd? :p |
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| 13:28:58 | <tomsmeding> | because already "electronics" is outside of "copmuter science", despite you saying you wanted to get admitted to a CS PhD |
| 13:28:58 | <merijn> | That's perhaps the most important question :p |
| 13:29:01 | <tomsmeding> | also |
| 13:29:50 | <Guest89> | I thought I would get in to a multidisciplinary project of some kind |
| 13:29:56 | <merijn> | You gotta ask yourself whether you're stupid enough to do a PhD xD |
| 13:30:04 | <tomsmeding> | a PhD means (details depending on the country) 3-5 years of struggling, learning very much about a very tiny part of science, as well as getting to know yourself |
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| 13:30:09 | <tomsmeding> | for comparatively little pay |
| 13:30:09 | <Guest89> | Why would it be stupid? |
| 13:30:38 | <Guest89> | OK. I guess I'll do a masters instead. |
| 13:30:38 | <merijn> | Most people like their mental health :p |
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| 13:30:47 | <tomsmeding> | if you're lucky (or select well), you have an advisor to guide you through the process; if you're unlucky, you're mostly on your own in navigating that |
| 13:30:50 | <Guest89> | Lol, mental health :D |
| 13:31:11 | <tomsmeding> | Guest89: given what you're saying, it indeed sounds to me like what you should explore is doing an Electrical Engineering masters degree, and then finding a job with that |
| 13:31:38 | <Guest89> | OK |
| 13:31:43 | <tomsmeding> | a PhD can be very enriching too, for yoruself, but it's something that you should really want :p |
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| 13:32:52 | <tomsmeding> | and about haskell: learning haskell (if you don't know it yet) is a good way (but an expensive way, time-wise) to strengthen your programming skills by expanding the toolbox you have for solving problems in programming and CS |
| 13:33:06 | <Guest31> | OK |
| 13:33:17 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure those skills are the most important ones if you want to pursue electrical engineering |
| 13:33:35 | <tomsmeding> | if you want to do embedded programming, maybe -- but I'd focus on playing with cute hardware instead |
| 13:33:39 | <Guest31> | Cool, I guess I'll prioritise learning C++ so I can get an embedded device programming job |
| 13:33:49 | <tomsmeding> | getting an arduino to do fancy things, for example |
| 13:34:03 | <tomsmeding> | (I know ~nothing about embedded programming :D) |
| 13:34:33 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: thanks for asking the appropriate question, lol |
| 13:34:51 | <merijn> | friends don't let friends do phds :p |
| 13:35:54 | <tomsmeding> | some people grow by doing a phd |
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| 13:35:56 | <tomsmeding> | _some_ |
| 13:36:29 | <tomsmeding> | I did (am still doing -- 6 months to go), but it did also cost :p |
| 13:38:13 | <Guest31> | Basically wanted a research job after a phd |
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| 13:40:29 | <tomsmeding> | "research job" means: 1. teaching courses and supervising student theses; 2. applying for grants to be able to do more research; 3. finding and solving hard problems, by yourself or with collaborators; 4. writing your results up in the form of a paper with a strict page limit, having that rejected, trying again, maybe this time getting a published paper, and as a reward present your paper at a |
| 13:40:31 | <tomsmeding> | conference in a 25min talk, of which 5min are questions |
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| 13:40:47 | <tomsmeding> | the research can be super fun, but do not forget the rest |
| 13:41:02 | <tomsmeding> | if you find research fun enough it can compensate for some of the other things |
| 13:41:12 | <tomsmeding> | but if you _only_ find (3.) interesting, then perhaps it's not such a good idea |
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| 13:41:50 | <darkling> | That was my mistake. :) |
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| 13:42:05 | <darkling> | Although 1 was quite interesting, too. |
| 13:42:06 | <tomsmeding> | if you'd like to spend your time building a product that people actually use, then skip academia and apply for a software development job (of some kind) |
| 13:42:25 | <tomsmeding> | darkling: I'm not saying that all of these are bad! I like 1 too. |
| 13:42:44 | <tomsmeding> | Still in my PhD so not much experience with 2, but I already know I'll hate it; 4 is so-so |
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| 13:43:35 | <Guest31> | Actually that sounds heavenly. Not unlike how I am governing my life now as an undergrad. |
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| 13:44:19 | <tomsmeding> | do you have people in your personal circle who are doing PhDs, preferably in some kind of computer-y discipline? |
| 13:45:23 | <Guest31> | I studied in UCL for a while, then Dhaka for 5 years and then in Chittagong where I am doing my undergrad. No one in my circle is doing PhD but PhD inspiration comes from some members of the extended family |
| 13:45:24 | <tomsmeding> | also: like in any other job, academia has grumpy people who are not enjoyable to be with |
| 13:46:15 | <darkling> | And the usual shysters, chancers, fraudsters and climbers of the greasy pole. |
| 13:47:36 | <tomsmeding> | well, in any case: my point about haskell stands; choosing a career path is a complicated thing that depends very much on what you want to do, what you are good at, what is achievable given where you currently are |
| 13:49:00 | <tomsmeding> | if you have only a BSc in computer science, and you aren't very confident in your CS skills already, I'd recommend getting an MSc in CS or EE (electrical engineering) before trying to land a PhD |
| 13:49:57 | <tomsmeding> | mind that research usually has a fairly theoretical slant to things, so not only on-the-ground coding skills matter, but also your skills for grappling with abstractions, theory behind systems and languages, algorithms and algorithm design, etc. |
| 13:50:38 | <tomsmeding> | there is also experimental research, but that's typically still informed by theory |
| 13:50:43 | <merijn> | You forgot management/planning skills :p |
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| 13:51:03 | <tomsmeding> | right -- that depends on how much time your advisor has for you |
| 13:51:15 | <tomsmeding> | if your advisor has lots of time for you, you can learn that on the job, I think |
| 13:51:21 | <tomsmeding> | (at the cost of your mental energy) |
| 13:51:36 | <tomsmeding> | (I got lucky with my advisor) |
| 13:53:49 | <tomsmeding> | Guest31: hope that gave you some context; perhaps it somehow helps in finding/navigating a career path. I have to go now, good luck :) |
| 13:54:44 | <Guest31> | thank you, it helps a lot, i shall focus on c++ projects now I guess |
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| 14:16:24 | <kaol> | I think the real bug is somewhere in ghcjs-dom. Browsers use UTF-16 internally and it was an incidental result that the least significant byte of my "ö" test matched with latin1. When I tried it with unicode snowman instead, I got 0x03 instead which matches with UTF-16 unicode snowman's least significant byte. It's the browsers, every time. getResponseText is not up to the task apparently. |
| 14:24:26 | <kaol> | This is getting rather too involved for me. I'm not quite sure where I should even open an issue about this. |
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| 14:36:07 | <tomsmeding> | kaol: I don't have context but if you're passing a string from JS to haskell and getting only the least-significant bytes of codepoints, that sounds like a problem on the haskell side |
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| 14:38:57 | <tomsmeding> | kaol: 𝅘𝅥𝅮 (U+1D161; https://tomsmeding.com/unicode#U+1D161 ) doesn't fit in two bytes |
| 14:39:15 | <tomsmeding> | you may try that to see if you're getting the least-significant byte of the _codepoint_ or of the UTF-16 pairs |
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| 14:50:14 | <kaol> | tomsmeding: https://github.com/haskell-servant/servant-jsaddle/issues/9 |
| 14:58:15 | <EvanR> | utf-16 strikes again |
| 14:59:23 | <EvanR> | oh, that issue would screw up utf-8 as well |
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| 15:04:13 | <kaol> | tomsmeding: I got "a", that is 0x61, when I tried that one. |
| 15:05:11 | <EvanR> | it's truncating each code unit |
| 15:05:21 | <EvanR> | will screw things up way before the astral plane |
| 15:05:48 | <kaol> | These are the moments when I regret my career choices. |
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| 15:06:16 | <EvanR> | it simply needs to do a utf-16 decode which is available in many haskell libraries |
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| 15:08:40 | <EvanR> | like Data.Text.Encoding |
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| 15:13:19 | <kaol> | It apparently goes through something like JSSstring and I don't think it ever hits a ByteString representation at all. And there's a coerce. I don't know if getting a ByteString to give to a regular Haskell side decoding function is an option. |
| 15:13:47 | <kaol> | Browsers be like. |
| 15:14:47 | <EvanR> | there's unpack :: JSString -> String |
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| 15:16:00 | <EvanR> | which effectively decodes it, but going through String = [Char] might cost |
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| 15:16:43 | <EvanR> | I don't know what you're actually trying to do so nvm |
| 15:17:20 | <kaol> | Decode JSON in WASM in browsers, with non-ASCII content. |
| 15:17:45 | <kaol> | And use servant-client to get it. |
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| 15:18:14 | <kaol> | And preferrably not be stuck with a fork of some lower level library in pepretuity. |
| 15:19:13 | <EvanR> | if it gives you a JSString, is that not enough |
| 15:19:41 | <kaol> | That's hidden below so many layers that it's not even funny if I want to just use servant-client. |
| 15:20:00 | <EvanR> | :( |
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| 15:29:59 | <kaol> | It may be this thing: https://github.com/ghcjs/jsaddle/issues/144 Open for over a year with no fix. |
| 15:30:47 | <mari-estel> | huh is ghcjs still a thing? |
| 15:31:40 | <kaol> | Yes, though I'm using ghc wasm myself. |
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| 15:32:19 | <EvanR> | WebSockets.hs lines 103 |
| 15:32:20 | <kaol> | Or rather, I think it's merged in GHC project already but it needs to be compiled separately. No support for alternate backends like that in the same binary. |
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| 15:33:31 | <EvanR> | a file that doesn't seem to be there |
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| 17:08:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> kaol: that's not far off by the sound of things |
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| 19:26:04 | <slack1256> | Does anybody have any luck with +RTS -pj --RTS? It produces an empty file on my end. |
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| 19:34:51 | <kaol> | How do I use debug flags like -ddump-rule-rewrites with cabal? I added it to my ghc-options but I'm not sure it did anything at all when I built my project. |
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| 19:38:02 | <geekosaur> | flags that don't affect generated objects won;t trigger rebuilds; your best bet in that case is to remove dist-newstyle |
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| 19:38:34 | <geekosaur> | also -ddump-to-file is IIRC enabled implicitly so the output will be under dist-newstyle |
| 19:39:06 | <geekosaur> | (next to the object file, with suffix matching the dump option) |
| 19:42:37 | <kaol> | I made a larger build and this time I saw output. I guess it works then. |
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| 19:58:44 | <kaol> | I'm not making much sense of this. JSaddle seems to indicate that JSString should be internally the same as Data.Text. It even uses coerce to transform them like that. But somewhere along the way it makes a faulty UTF-16 to UTF-8 conversion by just using the last byte. Which works if you are on ASCII but not for anything else. |
| 20:00:51 | <EvanR> | JSString isn't conceptually the same as Text |
| 20:01:18 | <EvanR> | Text used utf-16 internally at one point and now it's utf-8 I believe |
| 20:01:35 | <EvanR> | either way the same way would have been for it to do a conversion |
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| 20:04:10 | <kaol> | Javascript uses UTF-16 for its Strings at least. It very much looks like to me that it's doing a conversion to UTF-8 by just truncating at some point but I haven't found where. |
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| 20:09:41 | <geekosaur> | that sounds like a throwback to ancient ghc |
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| 20:25:43 | <sshine> | I feel old when you say that |
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| 20:31:49 | <int-e> | kaol: What conversion? https://github.com/ghcjs/jsaddle/blob/master/jsaddle/src/Language/Javascript/JSaddle/Value.hs#L225-L232 (JSString is a newtype around Text) (another fun detail: if the .cabal file is to be believed, jsaddle can be compiled against both text-1.* and text-2.*. I wonder whether that makes a difference.) |
| 20:32:33 | <int-e> | Anyway, no idea how this is supposed to work. |
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| 20:35:39 | <int-e> | My comment is solely based on this import, apparently, taking a reference to a javascript value, and producing a Text value. Whatever conversion that might entail would have to have to be done by ghcjs, and I don't know any details about its FFI. |
| 20:35:48 | <int-e> | or the wasm backend I suppose |
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| 20:43:39 | <EvanR> | sounds like the intention was to have Text in that context be implemented as a javascript string |
| 20:44:07 | <EvanR> | the question to have like 1 string type |
| 20:44:16 | <EvanR> | quest* |
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| 21:18:17 | <biberao> | hi do any of you advise to use chocolatey for haskell env on win11 |
| 21:18:19 | <biberao> | ? |
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| 21:23:44 | <int-e> | Just FWIW, here is one reason why JS's internal representation of strings might not matter for WASM backend purposes: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/ghc-internal/src/GHC/Internal/Wasm/Prim/Types.hs#L198-199 ...this encodes a JS string into a memory buffer shared with the WASM code, as UTF-8. So the encoding changes during marshalling. Does this connect to jsaddle in... |
| 21:23:50 | <int-e> | ...any way? I have no clue. |
| 21:28:10 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> biberao that's an ok way to get a few of the major tools installed - ghc, cabal, stack.. not ghcup I think |
| 21:29:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> the vscode-haskell extension is there, too |
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| 21:33:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> but, https://community.chocolatey.org/packages/ghc is much too old - 9.8.2. So I'd use either stack or ghcup to install ghc. |
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| 22:17:40 | <biberao> | ok |
| 22:17:48 | <biberao> | but can i isolate it? |
| 22:17:53 | <biberao> | or its globally installed? |
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| 22:32:02 | <geekosaur> | globally installed. ghcup and even more so stack can isolate them |
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| 22:35:44 | <biberao> | ah i can use ghcup or stack? |
| 22:35:47 | <biberao> | im cnfused here |
| 22:38:04 | <geekosaur> | both of them can install ghc for you, although modern stack usage gets ghc from ghcup |
| 22:38:32 | <geekosaur> | when you install ghcup, it will install ghc, haskell-language-server, cabal, and stack |
| 22:38:52 | <geekosaur> | it will also ask if you want to install a stack hook that makes it get ghc from ghcup instead of downloading it separately |
| 22:39:44 | <geekosaur> | stack is somewhat easier for beginners to use, although if you find yourself using extra-deps a lot then cabal might be a better alternative |
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| 22:47:48 | <biberao> | ive always used linux so i dont know win11 |
| 22:49:25 | <geekosaur> | unless you need to make a native Windows app then WSL2 + ghcup might be the way to go, then |
| 22:50:43 | <biberao> | geekosaur: any good reading for me to try? |
| 22:51:12 | <biberao> | i dont want it to mess much with the system |
| 22:53:38 | <monochrom> | I don't know what "isolation" means. But I can say what ghcup does. It can install multiple GHC versions, set one of them as default, but the others are still accessible as eg "ghc-9.6.7". It can uninstall any of the GHC versions. |
| 22:54:40 | <biberao> | ayh awesome |
| 22:54:47 | <biberao> | so i grab ghcup and its done then? |
| 22:54:55 | <geekosaur> | I'm not seeing any good documentation. Windows Subsystem for Linux 2 should be available for free in the Windows Store if it's not preinstalled, and once you start it you can use the Linux instructions to install ghcup within it https://haskell.org/ghcup |
| 22:55:23 | <biberao> | ah ok cool thanks |
| 22:55:28 | <biberao> | im sorry |
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| 22:57:00 | <EvanR> | is jsaddle an improbably obscure reference to "haskell on a horse" |
| 22:57:37 | <monochrom> | Heh, how does haskell get in there? |
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| 22:58:52 | <EvanR> | it's some thing that facilitates haskell for web |
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| 23:00:20 | <geekosaur> | ruby on rails, cobol on cogs, haskell on a horse |
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| 23:00:37 | <EvanR> | intercal on interstates |
| 23:00:47 | <monochrom> | But then I would expect "hsaddle". :) |
| 23:01:12 | <geekosaur> | I think it's actually saddling Javascript for use with Haskell via ghcjs/the JS backend |
| 23:01:17 | <Lycurgus> | did i imagine a ghcjs oder? |
| 23:01:52 | <EvanR> | ok javascript is the horse |
| 23:01:57 | <monochrom> | May I distort this thing completely and imagine "j in Spanish is like h in English"? >:) |
| 23:02:10 | <EvanR> | no that explains it |
| 23:02:13 | <geekosaur> | harder h, though |
| 23:02:21 | <monochrom> | Jasquell |
| 23:02:38 | <EvanR> | I never learned haskell only HQuery |
| 23:03:15 | <Lycurgus> | https://github.com/ghcjs/ghcjs |
| 23:03:38 | <Lycurgus> | just died out igess |
| 23:05:35 | <Lycurgus> | went to ill conceived idea heaven |
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| 23:05:57 | <EvanR> | ghcjs was an ill conceived idea and died out? |
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| 23:06:15 | <jackdk> | Isn't there a JS and a WASM backend in mainline GHC now? |
| 23:07:03 | <geekosaur> | more correctly, all its devs moved over to developing ghc's JS backend |
| 23:07:39 | <geekosaur> | because trying to upgrade ghcjs past 8.10 was too much of a nightmare |
| 23:07:48 | <Lycurgus> | so it could hook up with another ill concieved thing igess (wasm) |
| 23:08:04 | <EvanR> | ill advised |
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| 23:08:19 | <Lycurgus> | same deal |
| 23:08:29 | <int-e> | There is a wasm backend in mainline GHC. I don't think the JS backend is in there, but that's fine; the WASM one largely supersedes it anyway. |
| 23:08:41 | <geekosaur> | JS is in there |
| 23:08:45 | <int-e> | where? |
| 23:08:55 | <Lycurgus> | unless u think an idea is good if it looks or sounds good |
| 23:09:16 | <Lycurgus> | if sex ka-ching or whatever |
| 23:09:17 | <int-e> | Oh I'm too stupid to search. ./compiler/GHC/StgToJS.hs |
| 23:09:24 | <Lycurgus> | *sez |
| 23:09:29 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 23:10:42 | <int-e> | geekosaur: thanks |
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| 23:11:56 | <geekosaur> | sorry, I had a link but my sister called me out of the blue |
| 23:12:06 | <geekosaur> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/tree/master/compiler/GHC/StgToJS?ref_type=heads |
| 23:13:08 | <geekosaur> | (we normally text but she couldn't find our texts from yesterday or today on her phone) |
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