Logs on 2025-09-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:19:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sorry.. I can't even blame a cat.. was dusting |
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| 01:27:40 | <monochrom> | cats and dust balls are both instances of the Furball type class so it's OK :) |
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| 01:32:22 | <geekosaur> | dust bunny? |
| 01:32:34 | <monochrom> | yeah that's better :) |
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| 03:24:01 | <dcpagan> | How do I turn off alignment for GADTs with Floskell? |
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| 03:29:55 | <dcpagan> | I would like a format similar to Johan Tibell's configuration (https://github.com/ennocramer/floskell/blob/master/styles/johan-tibell.md), but without aligning GADT records. |
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| 06:14:04 | Maxdaman1us | is now known as Maxdamantus |
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| 09:51:00 | <[exa]> | Hey all. Is there any good way to "functionalize" a data structure used for suffix tree construction? It's a tree with "finger" and backlinks, see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/ukkonen/SuffixT1withFigs.pdf |
| 09:51:32 | <[exa]> | technically I'd just do ST+vector but hoped there'd be something much cooler |
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| 10:21:49 | <tomsmeding> | how much performance do you want :p |
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| 10:46:41 | <merijn> | [exa]: I mean, ST + vector seems very reasonable? |
| 10:47:14 | <merijn> | You could maybe do some fancy tricks with laziness, but that's probably gonna be much less understandable |
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| 10:48:51 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: not a whole lot, was more like thinking if I could code it differently |
| 10:49:16 | <[exa]> | merijn: yeah I assume it's gonna end with ST but wanted to be cool |
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| 10:49:47 | <[exa]> | OTOH there don't seem to be even data structures to support the backlinks sensibly, sans perhaps some of the ideas from inductive graphs...which is gonna be slow af in this case |
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| 10:52:56 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: when representing a cyclic graph in haskell, you can essentially choose between an explicit graph representation (Map like fgl, or STVector etc.) or an implicit graph representation (an infinite data type with sharing to produce a cyclical structure in memory) |
| 10:53:02 | <tomsmeding> | the latter is _extremely_ hard to work with |
| 10:53:23 | <tomsmeding> | the former is cumbersome, but it has the very big selling point that it... works |
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| 10:54:44 | <[exa]> | yeah and the former in my case is just a slower ST vector... :D |
| 10:55:15 | <[exa]> | ok nvm, I take that any improvement over the vectors is hard, thanks for confirming tho :) |
| 10:55:44 | <tomsmeding> | nice functional programming is all about trees |
| 10:55:49 | <tomsmeding> | cyclic graphs are not trees |
| 10:56:04 | <tomsmeding> | so there is a fundamental impedance mismatch that you have to overcome somehow |
| 10:56:22 | <[exa]> | yeah looks like I'll try to somehow reinvent the algorithm with trees |
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| 10:56:41 | <tomsmeding> | even DAGs are not trees, but they're a bit closer |
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| 10:56:56 | <[exa]> | (that's quite stupidest on the whole suffix tree algorithm tho, it looks SO MUCH like a fingertree walk, except it's not) |
| 10:57:40 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: perhaps the main tree could be a regular-old tree, but you have a separate Map from some node ID to the corresponding tree node, and backlinks are IDs where you have to go through the Map to find the tree node? |
| 10:57:57 | <tomsmeding> | then going down is just following a single pointer, and going up goes through a bunch of administration |
| 10:58:11 | <tomsmeding> | not sure if that helps at all |
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| 11:06:37 | <jreicher> | [exa]: Take this with a grain of salt, because my experience is still too limited, but I've found implicit graphs better if you manage one "paradigm shift": forget about the graph, and try to make precise the access functions. The structure is implied by those functions if you get them right. |
| 11:07:00 | <jreicher> | And that's especially true for infinitary expressions. |
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| 11:31:40 | <merijn> | [exa]: In general arrays/vectors are very hard to beat for graph algorithms :p |
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| 11:50:57 | <[exa]> | jreicher: yep, very true |
| 11:51:00 | <[exa]> | merijn: it |
| 11:51:21 | <[exa]> | ...'s going to be an array in the memory anyway, right :D |
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| 17:02:17 | <dminuoso_> | So I've been wondering about something with nix. How is it, that a language with extremely poor ergonomics, a stdlib that lack all the fundamental programming tasks, a stdlib that lacks all the advanced functional programming tricks, gives you infinite recursion left and right with virtually no control over strictness, hiding the defining bodies at the end (no where-bindings), very mediocre |
| 17:02:19 | <dminuoso_> | performance and the poorest of diagnostics (all you get is a universal throw with no catch mechanics).... attracts more users than Haskell? |
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| 17:02:50 | <Franciman> | because of nixos, dminuoso |
| 17:03:17 | <dminuoso> | Franciman: But thats the thing. Guix is lightyears more usable for the same problem domain. |
| 17:03:36 | <Franciman> | yes |
| 17:03:40 | <Franciman> | and standard ml is much better than haskell |
| 17:03:49 | <Franciman> | yet haskell is more famous |
| 17:03:51 | <Franciman> | such is life |
| 17:03:56 | <Franciman> | cargo cult, probably |
| 17:04:09 | <Franciman> | dminuoso: jokes aside the problem with guix is that it's strictly abiding to the free software culture |
| 17:04:17 | <Franciman> | and they are completely obsessed with reproducibility |
| 17:04:28 | <Franciman> | this makes adoption harder |
| 17:04:33 | <Franciman> | because it's more difficult to package stuff |
| 17:04:50 | <dminuoso> | I would argue that nix packaging is about as difficult. |
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| 17:05:07 | <dminuoso> | The frankenstein monster type of nix derivations and hackeries people write left and right is amazing. |
| 17:05:07 | <Franciman> | nix packaging is not as serious about reproducibility as guix's |
| 17:05:33 | <Franciman> | other than that guix feels much better to me as well |
| 17:05:44 | <dminuoso> | Yeah but interfacing with any packaging that is not some ancient autotools packaged thing that mkDerivation somehow can deal with.. |
| 17:05:46 | <Franciman> | the code is a bit difficult to read for me. But the external UI is very clean |
| 17:05:49 | <davean> | Yah I've wanted to move to guix but ... |
| 17:06:03 | <inline> | Ark got shot |
| 17:06:20 | <inline> | couldn't boot anymore from it's vram |
| 17:06:22 | <dminuoso> | Franciman: I find nix code to be as hard to read as llvm generated vectorized assembly. |
| 17:06:25 | <inline> | hahaha |
| 17:06:26 | <inline> | oh man |
| 17:06:45 | <Franciman> | lol dminuoso |
| 17:06:59 | <inline> | it's the second OS which failed to boot on virtualbox now, totally randomly it seems |
| 17:07:01 | <dminuoso> | Seriously, you get 1700 lines of nix files dealing with fixed point magic, various extend/override tricks, hooking inside out, outside in, double wrapping twisted turning fixed point inversion logic.. |
| 17:07:07 | <dminuoso> | All without a single line of comment. |
| 17:07:14 | <dminuoso> | Of a single empty line to just group code. |
| 17:07:17 | <davean> | well at least llvm generated vectorized assembly is easier to read than hand-optimize vectorized assembly |
| 17:07:25 | <inline> | last time it was bookworm of debian, no idea what's going on |
| 17:07:30 | jmcantrell_ | is now known as jmcantrell |
| 17:07:35 | <inline> | i now even updated virtualbox |
| 17:07:54 | <dminuoso> | I dont even know why nix people even botter with CR/LF. |
| 17:08:00 | <dminuoso> | Its not as if helps readability. |
| 17:08:05 | <Franciman> | davean: i would like to see a declarative language for nix-style stuff using logic programming paradigm |
| 17:08:23 | <dminuoso> | Franciman: Oh prolix! |
| 17:08:28 | <dminuoso> | Lets make that a thing. |
| 17:08:52 | <Franciman> | maybe we can inject the fixed point shit about making derivation into the classic fixpoint semantics of logic programs? |
| 17:08:55 | <inline> | seems like when encryption of devices is the case and windows suddenly looses the device (even though it was initially opened via passphrase and ran 2-3 days) |
| 17:08:58 | <Franciman> | prolix sounds good |
| 17:09:00 | <dminuoso> | Neither usable nor popular, sounds we could torture a PhD student with it. |
| 17:09:45 | <Franciman> | lol |
| 17:09:46 | <dminuoso> | Franciman: All that fixed point logic is just trying very hard to define module/packaging/interface boundaries |
| 17:09:56 | <dminuoso> | Software developers have been solving these problems for 5 decades. |
| 17:10:06 | <dminuoso> | s/define/avoid/ |
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| 17:10:21 | <inline> | i had 3 levels of encryption, the one via bitlocker (it looses the device from time to time) then i had an encryption level from the VBox, then another of the virtual disk with cryptsetup in the OS |
| 17:10:43 | <Franciman> | dminuoso: you think we would need full prolog power or just a datalog dialect? |
| 17:11:15 | <inline> | so 1. level flaky, 2. level flaky due to previous or on it's own, 3. level stable |
| 17:11:19 | <Franciman> | i'm not sure i follow the comment on fixed point logics, wdym dminuoso ? |
| 17:11:54 | <inline> | and once i installed haskell in there the updates won't ever end.... |
| 17:11:55 | <dminuoso> | Franciman: So the fixed points that occur in nixpkgs allow for composability of "things" |
| 17:11:59 | <dminuoso> | In various degrees. |
| 17:12:16 | <inline> | on almost every update i saw haskell packages... looks like a fast moving thing |
| 17:12:19 | <dminuoso> | In case of NixOS modules config fixed point, its how modules can talk to each other to figure out whats what |
| 17:12:20 | <Franciman> | ahh i see |
| 17:12:28 | <Franciman> | i thought fixpoints was to compute the final derivation |
| 17:12:47 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes its about a singular derivation |
| 17:12:49 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes its about config |
| 17:12:51 | <Franciman> | i see |
| 17:12:51 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes its about attrsets |
| 17:13:00 | <dminuoso> | At the end its all done to compose things together |
| 17:13:13 | <dminuoso> | But its an absurd abstraction because it leaks implementation at every step of the way |
| 17:13:17 | <dminuoso> | The best example is this: |
| 17:13:19 | <dminuoso> | https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/26561 |
| 17:13:28 | <dminuoso> | 8 year old issue about haskellPackages.extend and haskellPackages.override |
| 17:13:52 | <dminuoso> | Long story short: One is bad, you should probably use the other, and use a bunch of magic undocumented library functions to make it really extensible. |
| 17:14:19 | <dminuoso> | And its not because the problem domain is complicated: its just that all that fixed point nonsense is very much adhoc. |
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| 17:16:16 | <Franciman> | i see |
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| 18:32:34 | <monochrom> | Does it boil down to doing open recursion so you can compose extensions before you tie the knot and close it? |
| 18:33:26 | <monochrom> | But I'm not surprised that evolved languages (as opposed to intelligently designed) are messes. |
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| 18:48:09 | <yin> | what's the state of backpack these days? i've just learned about it |
| 18:48:38 | <monochrom> | I haven't used it for a while. But should be usable with cabal-install. |
| 18:49:25 | <monochrom> | It should work fine because there is recent blog post using it. (I think you saw that. :) ) |
| 18:50:00 | <yin> | i read 'Death to Type Classes' |
| 18:50:16 | monochrom | naïvely trust that every blog authors actually test their code before posting. |
| 18:50:21 | <monochrom> | Yeah that one. |
| 18:51:19 | <yin> | most links i find on official sources are dead or insecure |
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| 18:56:52 | <davean> | which links do you find that are insecure? |
| 18:58:38 | <yin> | ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Backpack for example |
| 18:59:09 | <davean> | thats a 403 |
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| 19:00:37 | <davean> | https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Backpack |
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| 19:02:02 | <yin> | certificate expired a year ago |
| 19:02:27 | <yin> | that's why i was getting the insecure notice |
| 19:03:25 | <int-e> | huh. I get a current certificate but it's only for data.gitlab.haskell.org |
| 19:03:38 | × | Enrico63 quits (~Enrico63@2a0b:e541:10d0:0:9efc:e8ff:fe24:3213) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 19:04:13 | × | inline quits (~inline@ip-005-146-196-132.um05.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:04:38 | <int-e> | (So still invalid for ghc.haskell.org) |
| 19:05:18 | <geekosaur> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/backpack |
| 19:05:31 | <geekosaur> | the redirects for wiki pages are still messed up |
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| 19:08:28 | <int-e> | The server in question appears to use the SNI thing (gitlab.haskell.org is the same IP but comes with a different TLS cert). I guess ghc.haskell.org just fell through the cracks completely? |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-09-22.