Logs on 2025-09-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:11 | Axma65380 | is now known as Axman6 |
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| 00:35:39 | × | Googulator20 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0744-4151-2ee3-78cb-4ad2.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 01:34:01 | × | inline quits (~inline@ip-005-146-196-132.um05.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 01:46:17 | × | Googulator53 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0744-4151-2ee3-78cb-4ad2.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 03:20:23 | jmcantrell_ | is now known as jmcantrell |
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| 06:30:33 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Yes, that's how it starts. So if we think of it as a big foldl over a series of functions, the next step becomes to think how to make that series of functions then extensible, and how to make that extensioning extension extensible. |
| 06:31:08 | <dminuoso> | It's just functional programming tricks that eventually boil down to CPS being able to encode whatever we want. |
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| 06:32:29 | <dminuoso> | In nix you have this typical hof function that is often dubbed "overlay" in the form of `final: prev: ...` where prev is the previous iteration of the thing you are modifying and final is that fixed point. |
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| 09:39:50 | <sshine> | dminuoso, apparently people really like overlays |
| 09:41:37 | <dminuoso> | Failed to process, infinite recursion encountered. |
| 09:42:57 | <sshine> | dminuoso, I've been following some people who blog about alternatives to nixpkgs by trying to make small POCs where they redesign things. I think it's very interesting how many design patterns exist in nixpkgs, which ones are good and which ones are bad. it seems like you only know about them after contributing to nixpkgs extensively. weird kinda programming library that exists in one location, and |
| 09:43:03 | <sshine> | doesn't get exported. |
| 09:43:58 | <sshine> | I don't mean bad design patterns, but... legacy iterations of the same things with small variations where there are warts in some of them. I'm not talking dream2nix, just... the same thing has been done over and over in different sections, and it's not exactly the same anywhere. |
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| 09:45:14 | <dminuoso> | sshine: I think one of the biggest hurdles in nix is actually the self-imposed evaluation model. Since you must be able to evaluate a huge nix expression tree on the spot without compilation, you basically ensure that module boundaries cant sensibly exist. |
| 09:45:32 | <dminuoso> | So users are forced to reimagine how program modules interact with each other at runtime. |
| 09:45:46 | <dminuoso> | It's certainly useful for academic reseach to do this. |
| 09:46:53 | <dminuoso> | Even NixOS modules are not really separated, they are so closely intertwined with the evaluation model. |
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| 09:47:30 | <dminuoso> | There's certainly some parallels to the evolution of some programming languages like JavaScript. |
| 09:47:49 | <sshine> | dminuoso, yeah. did you read about nrdxp's ekapkgs? his suggestion is to use git refs to keep track of package versions of each package; https://nrd.sh/blog/atom-anatomy/#atomic-git |
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| 09:49:55 | <sshine> | I have a repo for my VPS nix configs. and I just tried to remake my nix-darwin setup and thought "I'll just import my VPS nix config as a flake input", and then I get an error because my VPS nix flake has a nixosModule that references the nixvim flake, and my nix-darwin flake doesn't have nixvim as a flake input... so flakes don't inherit each other's inputs transitively. okay. but if I add nixvim as a |
| 09:50:01 | <sshine> | flake input, apparently that's not exactly enough either. I think I have to use a smarter module system, like flake modules from flake-parts. but I haven't got there yet. |
| 09:51:03 | <dminuoso> | sshine: Dont get me started on flakes. :( |
| 09:51:24 | <dminuoso> | The feature that is so unstable that even the RFC process was stopped. |
| 09:51:49 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> sshine: They do? |
| 09:51:52 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Fuck irc |
| 09:52:09 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Flakes do inherit inputs, i mean, not directly |
| 09:52:31 | <dminuoso> | They inherit inputs *if* you tell them to. |
| 09:52:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Another flake L |
| 09:52:42 | <dminuoso> | But not transitively unless *everyone* obeys that unwritten contract. |
| 09:52:47 | <dminuoso> | It's downright silly. |
| 09:52:56 | <dminuoso> | Just security-wise its a nightmare. |
| 09:53:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I think security-wise listing every input including transitive is sort of a good thing? |
| 09:53:19 | <dminuoso> | If you get a serious glibc bug, NixOS systems become impossible to patch correctly. |
| 09:53:37 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Its not silly. It is like this because flakes expect you to not randomly change their inputs, if you want to do that, thats on you |
| 09:54:07 | <dminuoso> | magic_rb: It means you cant force security updates. Having a constraint/dependency resolver is just far superior. |
| 09:54:12 | <dminuoso> | Because it gets tractable. |
| 09:54:22 | <dminuoso> | The nix way is rigid and reproducible, but not tractable. |
| 09:54:35 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> If nix-darwin is using nixpkgs for anything but lib its doing it wrong |
| 09:54:40 | <dminuoso> | Though that reproducibility is silly since all you need is just a lock file. |
| 09:55:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> So again, the mechanisms are in place and people are holding it wrong much of the time |
| 09:55:13 | <dminuoso> | magic_rb: Thats not up to you. If the *only* flake you ever use is github:nixpkgs, then fine. |
| 09:55:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Are we talking about flakes or the nix way in general, that makes security updates unforsable? |
| 09:55:35 | <dminuoso> | But the second you want any other package you like, you have to wire things together, and just pray that the entire transitive dependency closure does so as well. |
| 09:55:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> *not feasible to force-update |
| 09:55:40 | <dminuoso> | Morj: Yes, both. |
| 09:55:54 | <dminuoso> | Outside flakes its completely impossible since there's just hardwired buittins.fetchXXX things. |
| 09:56:00 | <dminuoso> | With flakes its also fairly impossible |
| 09:56:35 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> dminuoso no, again, wrong. If you use nix-darwin it doesnt matter what its nixpkgs input is. Since nix-darwin, like home-manager or nixng exposes a function which takes a instance of pkgs and builds your system from that |
| 09:56:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Outside flakes you get a giant blob where everything relies on everything. So if you do a security update you need to rebuild the world. I'm not too familiar with how flakes change this |
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| 09:56:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> But I want to say that a giant blob is not a bad thing |
| 09:57:15 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> They dont, thats a fundamental nix thing, everything is content addressed/input addressed. If you patch glibc you have to rebuild, thats just a fact |
| 09:57:27 | <dminuoso> | magic_rb: No thats still wrong. Here's why: flakes generally dont expose callPackage pattern! |
| 09:57:36 | <dminuoso> | They expose fully ready derivations based on pinned nixpkgs. |
| 09:57:48 | <dminuoso> | So if you want to include "fancy-program" into your nix-darwin installation.. |
| 09:57:58 | <dminuoso> | You have to make sure that fancy-program uses your nixpkgs, and not its own. |
| 09:58:02 | <dminuoso> | What about fancy-programs dependencies? |
| 09:58:04 | <dminuoso> | Who knwos. |
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| 09:58:23 | <dminuoso> | Which is why a single package can easily drag 5-6 different nixpkgs instanations with it. |
| 09:58:29 | <dminuoso> | Outside of nixpkgs at least. |
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| 09:59:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> That's the part I also don't understood about flakes. I suppose there should be a way to deduplicate or override deps? Would be crazy if there isn't |
| 09:59:33 | <dminuoso> | Morj: There is, you have to do it manually for each input. |
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| 09:59:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> On the other hand, flakes CLI has some other crazy things like that interaction with git |
| 09:59:43 | <dminuoso> | So its a contract that everyone should obey. |
| 10:00:08 | <dminuoso> | So you write `inputs.foo.nixpkgs.follows = "nixpkgs";` in your flake |
| 10:00:16 | <dminuoso> | People generally dont. |
| 10:00:55 | <dminuoso> | The flaw here is that packages are solved based on hardwired references, not on resolvable labels. |
| 10:00:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Unfortunate. Seems like you can copy a flake description and patch it at least |
| 10:01:37 | <dminuoso> | Morj: Heh, funny story about that: Nix updates that lock file for you without even asking for confirmation in a few different circumstances. |
| 10:01:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Sometimes the hardwired references are good actually. But I should say they should be guarded with «syntactic salt» and not advertized in the tutorial |
| 10:01:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Wtf |
| 10:02:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Did nodejs devs write this |
| 10:02:40 | <dminuoso> | The way cabal packages do it is fairly good already. You talk about flags and versions (i.e. constraints) |
| 10:02:42 | <dminuoso> | Its lockable |
| 10:02:46 | <dminuoso> | But overridable. |
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| 10:03:01 | <dminuoso> | So you get tractability, reproducability and ability to specify what it is you need exactly. |
| 10:03:32 | <jackdk> | Ideally the flake providing the package should provide an overlay to splice it into your config how you wish, but that's very rare. Agree that the inputs.foo.nixpkgs.follows is the "standard" but sadly less common than it should be |
| 10:05:46 | <dminuoso> | Here I have 22 nixpkgs instantiations in my store for just 4 NixOS deployments. :-) |
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| 10:12:40 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, is it possible to ask GHC to emit llvm ir and not actually compile that IR to machine code? |
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| 11:20:58 | <tomsmeding> | lxsameer: `ghc -fllvm -S`? |
| 11:21:42 | <tomsmeding> | ah no |
| 11:22:34 | <tomsmeding> | it seems not |
| 11:22:55 | <tomsmeding> | lxsameer: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/compiler/GHC/Driver/Phases.hs#L60 |
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| 11:23:53 | <tomsmeding> | `ghc -fllvm -ddump-llvm` dumps LLVM IR, but also proceeds with compilation; you can make it stop at assembly with -S, but not earlier it seems (except for -E, which is too early) |
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| 12:05:49 | <lxsameer> | tomsmeding: cheers |
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| 14:39:58 | <geekosaur> | sounds like maybe something to request as a feature |
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| 21:15:51 | <Guest61> | @pl |
| 21:15:51 | <lambdabot> | (line 1, column 1): |
| 21:15:51 | <lambdabot> | unexpected end of input |
| 21:15:51 | <lambdabot> | expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression |
| 21:16:19 | <Guest61> | @pl rangeSum m n = sum (filter even [m..n]) |
| 21:16:19 | <lambdabot> | rangeSum = ((sum . filter even) .) . enumFromTo |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-09-23.