Logs on 2025-09-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:13:15 | <dcpagan> | I want to define a prism that matches a list with a single element, and then get that element. |
| 02:13:31 | <dcpagan> | _single :: (Cons s s a a, AsEmpty s) => Traversal' s a |
| 02:13:33 | <dcpagan> | _single = _Cons . aside _Empty . _1 |
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| 02:14:48 | <dcpagan> | It works on my code: It works on my code: https://github.com/DCPagan/Exercism-Haskell/blob/master/go-counting/src/Counting.hs#L57-L58 |
| 02:14:57 | <dcpagan> | However, I cannot review on it. |
| 02:15:22 | <dcpagan> | `_single # 1` does not work. |
| 02:15:46 | <dcpagan> | How does review work with prisms? |
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| 02:26:27 | <dibblego> | you could use preview, but it will always return Nothing, by single element do you mean the head of the list? You cannot have that Prism, but you can have the Traversal |
| 02:28:46 | <dcpagan> | This works: |
| 02:28:48 | <dcpagan> | _singular :: Prism' [a] a |
| 02:28:50 | <dcpagan> | _singular = prism (:[]) $ \case |
| 02:28:52 | <dcpagan> | [] -> Left [] |
| 02:28:54 | <dcpagan> | h:t -> if null t then Right h else Left (h:t) |
| 02:29:18 | <dcpagan> | So I can't review Traversals? |
| 02:30:49 | <dibblego> | ok yes that works on the head of a single-element list |
| 02:32:02 | <dibblego> | no, you cannot review a traversal, which can be seen in this diagram: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens |
| 02:32:22 | <dibblego> | i.e. Traversal is not Review |
| 02:32:50 | <dibblego> | you can review [Review, Prism, Iso, Equality] |
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| 02:38:09 | <dcpagan> | Would have been nice to generically compose my prism with _Cons and _Empty; I thought I was clever with that one-liner. |
| 02:44:43 | <Leary> | It can still be a fine one-liner: `_singular = prism pure \case{ [x] -> Right x; xs -> Left xs }` |
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| 11:05:50 | <[exa]> | is there some good way/approach/systematization to "combine" errors? E.g. I have 2 parts of a program, one fails in a way that looks like a retry would help, another fails in a way that suggests reconfiguration is needed. I want them to somehow automagically combine so that other parts of the program may derive e.g. if they should retry or contact admins instead |
| 11:05:57 | <[exa]> | maybe s/errors/recommendations/ at this point |
| 11:06:37 | <[exa]> | and well ofc if there was a good functional way to model that, it would be <3 :) |
| 11:08:31 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: Validation? |
| 11:08:53 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage validation |
| 11:08:53 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validation |
| 11:09:20 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. just Either but with no Monad instance, and an Applicative instance that proceeds and collects all errors instead of stopping |
| 11:09:43 | <[exa]> | yeah well validation collects the errors into a semigroup (that's good) but I was kinda asking more about how to structure (and interpret) that semigroup |
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| 11:10:13 | <tomsmeding> | data Error = RetryNeeded | ReconfigNeeded; type Errors = [Error] |
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| 11:10:34 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps instead data Error = RetryNeeded | ReconfigNeeded deriving (Eq, Ord); type Errors = Set Error |
| 11:10:55 | <[exa]> | yeah that way I could do a maximum on that and just go with what's worst |
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| 11:11:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> [exa] I think that gets pretty complicated and a more sequential / prioritised handling of single errors can be more practical |
| 11:11:39 | <tomsmeding> | if you just want the maximum, type Errors = Data.Monoid.Max Error |
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| 11:11:46 | <[exa]> | yeah I got to a situation where handing the error combinations by one is a bit to much |
| 11:11:54 | <[exa]> | so kinda scanning for possibilities |
| 11:12:54 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> if you can meaningfully collect and list them all, that could be another approach |
| 11:13:39 | <tomsmeding> | if your errors are not linearly ordered then I wonder if there's some clever kind of lattice-based deduplication algorithm you could run on the Set Error :p |
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| 11:15:12 | <[exa]> | hm lattice |
| 11:15:12 | <tomsmeding> | if you want more detail you can either add fields to the RetryNeeded/ReconfigNeeded constructors, or instead transpose the thing and have `data Error` be the long sum type of actual fine-grained errors, and have `isRetryNeeded :: Error -> Bool` and `isReconfigNeeded :: Error -> Bool` |
| 11:15:22 | <tomsmeding> | lattice ~ partial order in my mind |
| 11:15:53 | <[exa]> | yeah you know what, I thought I can live with the ordering of the errors but I was hitting a problem where I didn't know what the useful maxima would be |
| 11:16:09 | <[exa]> | now if I could have more maxima, I guess interpretation is gonna be harder but it solves the issue |
| 11:17:12 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps a stupid slow but working version of that lattice approach is: type Errors = Set Error; then have `reduce :: Errors -> Errors` that loops over all pairs (e1, e2) in the set (i.e. it's O(n^2)) and if e1 < e2 in your partial order, then e1 is removed from the set |
| 11:17:38 | <tomsmeding> | then you could choose to run `reduce` in the (<>) on Errors (if you make it a newtype), or you could run `reduce` at the end once only |
| 11:17:59 | <tomsmeding> | you can probably do better than O(n^2) somehow, but this may well be "good enough" |
| 11:18:07 | <tomsmeding> | you still have to define your partial order of course |
| 11:18:09 | <[exa]> | I have one error where there's timeout in one service and auth failure in another, and both need to be handled (someone needs to tell admins to check credentials, and someone else needs to delay the retry), and they both occlude a few other errors/warnings |
| 11:18:13 | <[exa]> | so yeah partial order it is |
| 11:18:26 | <tomsmeding> | neat |
| 11:18:32 | <tomsmeding> | math! |
| 11:19:15 | <[exa]> | I might really want to reword the whole problem to recommendations instead of the error/exception wording, it makes interpretation much easier |
| 11:19:34 | [exa] | goes back to the cave to rethink again |
| 11:19:49 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think s/Error/Recommendation/g changes anything in the above |
| 11:20:01 | <tomsmeding> | just makes all the names longer |
| 11:20:37 | <tomsmeding> | also there's plenty precedent for errors not being fatal, see compiler errors |
| 11:21:07 | <tomsmeding> | (that's not to say you should not do the rename in your case, I dunno the context and don't need to know it :P) |
| 11:22:56 | <tomsmeding> | I wonder if there's a neat way to implement (<) on a partial order by only specifying the pairs that generate the order, i.e. without having to manually deal with transitivity |
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| 11:23:20 | <tomsmeding> | I guess that's called directed graph reachability |
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| 11:28:09 | <tomsmeding> | if you do my `reduce` in (<>), then you can reduce the O(n^2) to O(n * m) because you can assume that no redundancies exist within one argument to (<>) |
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| 11:29:38 | <merijn> | [exa]: I mean, the exception system lets you create hierarchical inheritance like behaviour for exceptions, so maybe try something along those lines? |
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| 11:34:19 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: if I'm understanding [exa]'s use case correctly, the idea is that an auth error in some component is useful to report (credentials should be fixed), and a timeout is also useful (retry may help), but if later we find out that something in the config of that component is just broken, the error "config should be fixed" overrides the other ones because a changed config changes everything |
| 11:34:21 | <tomsmeding> | anyway |
| 11:34:47 | <tomsmeding> | hence the partial-order-of-errors idea where you store only the maxima |
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| 11:45:55 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Right, but you can do that using hierarchical exceptions |
| 11:46:12 | <merijn> | Since it just relies on a bunch of Typeable based projections |
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| 14:01:53 | <[exa]> | merijn: oh wow is there any example code for that |
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| 14:03:21 | <[exa]> | oh you meant this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/exception-hierarchy ? |
| 14:03:37 | <merijn> | [exa]: No, that uses TH |
| 14:03:45 | <[exa]> | ah |
| 14:04:05 | <[exa]> | exceptions-via ? |
| 14:04:17 | <merijn> | [exa]: I mean the Simon Marlow paper: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1159842.1159854 |
| 14:04:31 | <merijn> | This requires nothing not in base/GHC |
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| 14:05:32 | <merijn> | I have an example somewhere |
| 14:06:27 | <merijn> | https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/ed95965077ee0a55c9a206b75445ddf93723916b/benchmark-analysis/ffi-core/Exceptions/Class.hs#L4 |
| 14:06:30 | <merijn> | https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/ed95965077ee0a55c9a206b75445ddf93723916b/benchmark-analysis/ffi-core/Exceptions.hs#L49 |
| 14:06:38 | <merijn> | See the Simon paper on how it works |
| 14:06:59 | <merijn> | I think you can actually do more powerful things than just tree style hierarchies with it |
| 14:08:01 | <[exa]> | that's suuuuuuuuuper interesting |
| 14:08:03 | <[exa]> | thanks a lot |
| 14:08:29 | <merijn> | Added bonus that it doesn't use anything that hasn't been in GHC for at least like 1 or 2 decades :p |
| 14:08:37 | <merijn> | So you can use it, essentially, everywhere |
| 14:09:29 | <merijn> | It's mentioned on the SomeException page with the paper, but no one ever reads it for some reason. It's a super neat trick, though |
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| 14:15:27 | <[exa]> | yeah neither I read it |
| 14:16:05 | <[exa]> | I can pass the same thing through validation etc, and have some combinators to actually meld the exceptions together |
| 14:16:08 | <[exa]> | good |
| 14:16:10 | <[exa]> | thanks! |
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| 14:36:30 | <EvanR> | yeah Exceptions are dynamically typed |
| 14:36:38 | <EvanR> | haskell is the best dynamically typed language |
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| 14:42:01 | <c_wraith> | well, now that it's illegal to manually declare an instance of Typeable, anyway |
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| 18:13:13 | <monochrom> | Haskell is the best Typeable language. >:) |
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| 20:02:34 | ← | noodle__ parts (~Guest60@syn-072-184-111-022.res.spectrum.com) () |
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| 23:07:49 | × | inline quits (~inline@ip-005-146-196-132.um05.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-09-26.