Logs on 2025-09-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:35:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> good question EvanR |
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| 02:14:23 | <slondr> | What's the best way to maintain/mutate state across calls of a function where I can't modify the function signature? |
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| 02:14:52 | <slondr> | as in, I'm passing a callback function to a library, but I want my callback function to accumulate some context each time it's called |
| 02:16:00 | <slondr> | My first thought was to use forkIO to spawn a separate thread for maintaining state in a simple call/response recursive function, then build my callback function as a closure over a channel to this thread. But that seems like it might be overkill |
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| 02:27:41 | <Leary> | slondr: Close over a simple `IORef` instead? E.g. pass in a partially applied `mkCallBack :: IORef YourState -> CallBackType`. |
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| 02:32:22 | <slondr> | Hmm, can I reference IORefs in a non-IO function? |
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| 02:37:18 | <Leary> | In a pure function? No, but in that case you can't do anything with channels either. |
| 02:37:27 | <Leary> | If you're in a pure context, the function must do the same thing every time it's called; it can have no internal state. |
| 02:37:43 | <slondr> | ah, ok |
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| 02:39:23 | <slondr> | is there maybe a way to modify external state without it affecting the return value of the function? I suppose I could rebuild the callback function into something slightly different every time if so |
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| 02:45:08 | <Leary> | Not without `unsafePerformIO`. You probably need to change your approach. |
| 02:45:36 | <dcpagan> | How do I safely decrement a type-level natural number? |
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| 02:45:53 | <slondr> | Hmm, I agree that this approach seems rather fundamentally flawed, but I feel at the whim of the library here sadly |
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| 03:05:48 | <dcpagan> | I got a reduction stack overflow from type-level shenanigans. Wat do? |
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| 03:10:54 | <slondr> | oh! if I partially-apply the function from within an IO context, I get a de-IO'd version of the function - maybe this is the key |
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| 03:31:26 | <slondr> | Hey that may have worked |
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| 03:46:13 | <slondr> | indeed it did! now I can read and write to an IORef from within the library's invokation of the callback. this is awesome |
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| 04:20:40 | <dcpagan> | Is there a standard way to iterate over type-level natural numbers? |
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| 04:22:49 | <dcpagan> | For example, in the recursion-schemes package (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/recursion-schemes), an instance of a base functor for Natural was defined as Maybe, and Natural was an instance of the fixed point of Maybe. |
| 04:23:09 | <dcpagan> | Is there a standard type-level way of unfixing that fixed point? |
| 04:23:14 | <dcpagan> | Something like this? |
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| 04:23:28 | <dcpagan> | type family Unnatural (n :: Natural) where |
| 04:23:30 | <dcpagan> | Unnatural 0 = 'Nothing |
| 04:23:32 | <dcpagan> | Unnatural n = 'Just (n - 1) |
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| 05:44:01 | <dcpagan> | My type-level shenanigans worked, but, for some reason, using associated type families raises a type error that there is no instance of the KnownSymbol constraint. |
| 05:44:12 | <dcpagan> | My code is here: https://exercism.org/tracks/haskell/exercises/house/solutions/DCPagan |
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| 09:58:15 | <lyxia> | dcpagan: what's the code that failed and what's the error |
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| 16:08:43 | <slondr> | why do haskell linters suggest calling 'elem' as infix instead of prefix? I haven't seen this suggestion for other functions but I'm getting it for 'elem' |
| 16:09:54 | <__monty__> | Looks nice if you use conceals? |
| 16:10:08 | <__monty__> | Makes the argument order more intuitive? |
| 16:10:19 | <__monty__> | Developer's personal opinion? |
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| 16:11:01 | <slondr> | What are conceals? |
| 16:11:48 | <int-e> | x `elem` xs is reminiscent of x ∊ X in set theory |
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| 16:22:28 | <__monty__> | slondr: `:h conceal` in Vim. |
| 16:23:22 | <slondr> | oh it's a vim thing? |
| 16:23:40 | <slondr> | Ohh I see, it's similar to prettify-symbols-mode |
| 16:23:57 | <__monty__> | Some other editors also do. |
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| 16:41:50 | <dcpagan> | lyxia: The code "rhyme = symbolVal $ Proxy @(Song SongLength)" throws the type error "No instance for (KnownSymbol (Song SongLength) arising from a use of 'symbolVal'". |
| 16:42:33 | <dcpagan> | I cannot use the associated type families, but the closed type families work. |
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| 16:43:31 | <dcpagan> | You can clone it here: https://github.com/DCPagan/Exercism-Haskell/blob/master/house/src/House.hs#L116-L117 |
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| 16:55:03 | <dcpagan> | I solved it: I had to add an instance statement for the class. |
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| 18:29:12 | <tomsmeding> | dcpagan: did you add a manual instance to KnownSymbol? That sounds highly dubious and probably not the way to go |
| 18:29:30 | <dcpagan> | I just did; it fixed it. |
| 18:29:44 | <tomsmeding> | symbolVal is meant for symbols themselves; if you want tome kind of typeclass for "things that have a name", you should probably create that typeclass yourself |
| 18:29:56 | <tomsmeding> | and it could have an instance for Symbol that delegates to symbolVal |
| 18:30:27 | <tomsmeding> | or wait |
| 18:30:33 | <tomsmeding> | what do you mean with "add an instance statement" precisely? |
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| 18:31:55 | <tomsmeding> | oh you mean an instance for VerseIndex, not an instance for KnownSymbol |
| 18:32:04 | <tomsmeding> | yeah that makes perfect sense |
| 18:32:39 | <tomsmeding> | though I do wonder why the class is necessary |
| 18:36:02 | <tomsmeding> | dcpagan: https://play.haskell.org/saved/YzCmA0EI works fine for me |
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| 18:36:15 | <tomsmeding> | I did have to convert the "type signatures" for Verses/Stanza/Song to StandaloneKindSignatures |
| 18:38:24 | <dcpagan> | tomsmeding: Before, I forgot to add the line "instance (KnownNat n, n <= SongLength) => VerseIndex (n :: Natural)" |
| 18:38:45 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 18:39:01 | <tomsmeding> | that line has nothing to do with KnownSymbol, though :) |
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| 18:41:45 | <dcpagan> | I am getting conflicting conflicting type instances from the commented block of code: |
| 18:41:58 | <dcpagan> | https://github.com/DCPagan/Exercism-Haskell/blob/62845d21c972414c648e69a456990a00280c3faa/house/src/House.hs#L124-L127 |
| 18:42:29 | <dcpagan> | I want to encapsulate the constraints and type errors in a separate instance. |
| 18:42:36 | <tomsmeding> | instances are chosen/disambiguated purely based on the part to the right of the => |
| 18:42:43 | <tomsmeding> | so both your `VerseIndex n` instances apply to all n |
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| 18:43:05 | <tomsmeding> | haskell typeclasses are not a logic programming language, unfortunately |
| 18:43:08 | <dcpagan> | So how do I constrain the kind variables? |
| 18:43:19 | <tomsmeding> | with instances, you don't |
| 18:43:24 | <dcpagan> | That sucks. |
| 18:43:33 | <tomsmeding> | you can use type families though :) |
| 18:43:43 | <tomsmeding> | I don't see why you cannot just compute these things with type families |
| 18:44:25 | <dcpagan> | Can I pattern match with type families? |
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| 18:44:41 | <tomsmeding> | use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/GHC-TypeLits.html#t:-60--61--63- and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/Data-Type-Bool.html#t:If |
| 18:45:03 | <tomsmeding> | dcpagan: what is `Song' Nothing = "" ; Song' (Just n) = ...` doing if not pattern matching? |
| 18:45:15 | <tomsmeding> | but in this case, you don't want to pattern-match, you want to have a conditional on <= |
| 18:45:24 | <dcpagan> | Last time I tried Data.Type.Bool.If, I got reduction stack overflows. |
| 18:45:42 | <dcpagan> | It's why I refactored to recursion with Maybe Natural. |
| 18:45:53 | <tomsmeding> | sure, you can do that here too |
| 18:46:02 | <dcpagan> | I want to guard against naturals beyond a certain value. |
| 18:46:04 | <tomsmeding> | but I expect the If to work |
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| 18:47:12 | <tomsmeding> | instance selection is "greedy" in haskell, no backtracking is performed |
| 18:47:38 | <tomsmeding> | the algorithm does, however, guard against ambiguity: an instance is chosen only if it can be determined, without looking at the constraints, that it's the only one that matches |
| 18:47:56 | <tomsmeding> | this means that the result of the greedy algorithm is always compatible with what a full backtracking algorithm would have produced |
| 18:49:12 | <tomsmeding> | why exactly this choice for greediness was made I don't know; perhaps to not accidentally build a prolog |
| 18:49:33 | <tomsmeding> | and retain sane compile times |
| 18:52:19 | <EvanR> | warning warning prolog detected. Abort |
| 18:52:26 | <EvanR> | it's too late |
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| 19:00:12 | <[exa]> | EvanR: no one used cut yet! backtrack! |
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| 19:01:40 | <dcpagan> | I used Data.Type.Bool.If, and there were no reduction stack overflows. |
| 19:01:43 | <dcpagan> | https://github.com/DCPagan/Exercism-Haskell/blob/73c27000e602ea2fe1718f552b717ae62a490257/house/src/House.hs#L109-L118 |
| 19:02:19 | <dcpagan> | Would this render redundant the constraint (n <= SongLength)? |
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| 19:07:30 | <dcpagan> | The only thing I'm missing is specifying the input index in the custom type error message. |
| 19:08:01 | <dcpagan> | How do I convert a Natural to a Symbol for displaying in a custom type error message? |
| 19:08:17 | <dcpagan> | Like a type-promoted show? |
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| 19:17:16 | <tomsmeding> | dcpagan: use ShowType? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.20.0.1/docs/GHC-TypeError.html#t:ErrorMessage |
| 19:17:40 | <tomsmeding> | dcpagan: why is the instance still there? Why are Verses/Stanza/Song not just top-level type families at this point? |
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| 19:18:24 | <tomsmeding> | a class with a single, blanket instance (like you have here with VerseIndex) is very rarely useful |
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| 19:19:05 | <tomsmeding> | there are very specific reasons why you may need such a thing sometimes (in particular if it appears in a QuantifiedConstraint elsewhere), but none of those apply here |
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| 19:21:16 | <dcpagan> | I was planning on constraining the type family with the constraint. |
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| 19:22:31 | <tomsmeding> | right |
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| 19:30:30 | <dcpagan> | Do custom type errors always make such constraints redundant? |
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| 19:30:48 | <dcpagan> | Latest update: https://github.com/DCPagan/Exercism-Haskell/blob/master/house/src/House.hs |
| 19:31:32 | <dcpagan> | I really like how custom type errors are immediately communicated to the IDE. |
| 19:32:05 | <dcpagan> | It's like I'm programming the IDE to gently hand-hold anyone who inherits this code. |
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| 19:49:29 | <tomsmeding> | well, the kind of type-level programming that you're doing here is not quite what the type system was designed for :) |
| 19:50:09 | <tomsmeding> | if your type class had a value in it too, then you would not have been able to eliminate the type class |
| 19:51:12 | <tomsmeding> | usually, if there's a sensible place to put a constraint and thereby save an explicit If in a type family, using the constraint is the better choice |
| 19:51:25 | <tomsmeding> | because constraints behave more nicely in the type system, in general |
| 19:51:49 | <tomsmeding> | but in this case you have no values in the first place, so there is no sensible place to put a constraint, so TypeError it is |
| 19:53:27 | <EvanR> | you have class but no value |
| 19:53:39 | <EvanR> | an awkward position to be in |
| 19:53:46 | <tomsmeding> | rather |
| 19:54:02 | <tomsmeding> | unless you're "typing the technical interview" |
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| 19:56:59 | <tomsmeding> | at least you have family this way |
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