Logs on 2025-09-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:04:23 | <newsham> | hi. why doesnt this work? `instance (Applicative a, Lerpable b) => Lerpable (a b) where`. do i have the wrong incantation? |
| 03:05:33 | <newsham> | ie. I have an `instance Lerpable a => Lerpable (Image a) where { scale s img = scale s <$> img; add = liftA2 add }` whose implementation is generic to applicatives, but I cant seem to figure out how to write the generalization |
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| 03:09:12 | <geekosaur> | FlexibleInstances might allow it, but I'm not sure a type-level application works there. and if it did it would overlap pretty much any other instances (context is not used when matching instances) |
| 03:09:27 | <newsham> | https://paste-bin.xyz/8204813 |
| 03:10:19 | <newsham> | so template or just copy and paste a lot? |
| 03:11:10 | <geekosaur> | looks like it's just telling you wnat I already told you: Haskell98/2010 doesn't allow that, FlexibleInstances does |
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| 03:11:48 | <geekosaur> | btu beware of overlaps |
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| 03:11:53 | <geekosaur> | *but |
| 03:11:56 | <Leary> | newsham: I suggest `instance (Applicative f, Lerpable a) => Lerpable (Ap f a) where { ... }`; `data Image a = ... deriving Lerpable via Ap Image`. |
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| 03:14:55 | <newsham> | why does this web client disconnect so easily? |
| 03:16:34 | <geekosaur> | it may depend on the browser; some of them may stop running JS on tab switch, which would cause a connection drop |
| 03:17:07 | <geekosaur> | (or desktop switch or loss of focus, etc.) |
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| 10:48:07 | <yin> | it amazes daily how liftA2 is not an infix operator |
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| 10:55:58 | <merijn> | :t liftA2 |
| 10:55:58 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c |
| 10:56:12 | <merijn> | yin: I mean, that's just a combination of <$> and <*>? |
| 10:56:41 | <merijn> | :t let lift f x y = f <$> x <*> y in lift |
| 10:56:42 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> f a1 -> f a2 -> f b |
| 10:57:25 | <merijn> | And that notation trivialiases to any arity |
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| 11:02:00 | <yin> | useful and ubiquitous binary operation that I feel is awkward to write as prefix, not unlike `on` |
| 11:02:39 | <merijn> | I don't see how liftA2 nicely turns into an infix binary operator, tbh |
| 11:03:06 | <Leary> | Binary? `liftA2` tends to be given either one or three arguments. |
| 11:03:13 | <yin> | now we could write <$> ... <*>, you're right! but sometimes, liftA2 is more performant |
| 11:03:14 | <merijn> | > ((+) `liftA2` (Just 1)) (Just 2) |
| 11:03:15 | <lambdabot> | Just 3 |
| 11:03:24 | <merijn> | That seems very awkward to use |
| 11:04:22 | <merijn> | > let (☃) = liftA2 in (+) ☃ (Just 1) (Just 2) |
| 11:04:24 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 11:04:24 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘Maybe a1 -> f c’ |
| 11:04:24 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘Maybe a0’ |
| 11:04:40 | <merijn> | > let (☃) = liftA2 in ((+) ☃ (Just 1)) (Just 2) |
| 11:04:41 | <lambdabot> | Just 3 |
| 11:04:45 | <Leary> | > Just 1 &liftA2 (+)$ Just 2 |
| 11:04:47 | <lambdabot> | Just 3 |
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| 11:05:01 | <merijn> | Leary: Right, but that can't be valid Haskell to begin with |
| 11:05:21 | <merijn> | You have to bind the partial application to a name, then |
| 11:05:29 | ← | justache parts (~justache@user/justache) (bye?) |
| 11:05:54 | <merijn> | > let (☃) = liftA2 (+) in Just 2 ☃ Just 3 |
| 11:05:55 | <lambdabot> | Just 5 |
| 11:06:11 | <merijn> | And if you're gonna bind a name, then you can easily to whatever infix you want |
| 11:06:24 | <Leary> | It worked, didn't it? |
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| 11:08:00 | <merijn> | Leary: I mean, that $ and & hack is approximately infinitely less readable than the prefix `liftA2` call, so I would argue no, it's also 2 operators + 1 a function, not a single infix thing :p |
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| 11:09:40 | <yin> | maybe you're right after all |
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| 11:19:10 | <sshine> | yin, at least `on` reads nicely. |
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| 11:37:37 | <yin> | > (+) `liftA2` (Just 1) $ (Just 2) |
| 11:37:39 | <lambdabot> | Just 3 |
| 11:38:15 | <yin> | in my mind, we would ideally bind the infix operator more tightly than function application, but that's not possible |
| 11:38:50 | <yin> | so we need the $ |
| 11:39:45 | <yin> | sshine: i am vehemently agains the idea that logic languages should emulate natural language |
| 11:41:47 | <yin> | ... "logical languages"? |
| 11:42:09 | <yin> | programming languages at least |
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| 11:44:38 | <yin> | i don't care which symbols we use, as long as it's consistent. in the case of `on`, the use of `` i find it's inelegant |
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| 11:46:33 | <yin> | not because of the ` symbol but because of its semantics |
| 11:50:59 | <chromoblob> | i want following syntax: Just 1 `(liftA2 (+))` Just 2 |
| 11:53:57 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: parser developers wish for backtick disambiguation tools |
| 11:54:24 | <merijn> | chromoblob: That'd be nice, but thinking about ramification on parsing makes me throw that right out :p |
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| 11:54:59 | <merijn> | In practice I find it a nonissue, since you can trivially locally bind it infix for readability |
| 11:55:08 | [exa] | wishes for back-backtick, the foretick, like ´ but worse |
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| 11:55:50 | <yin> | [exa]: at least that wouldn't trip markdown up |
| 11:56:01 | <chromoblob> | i also want pattern syntax ("abc" ++ s) - like n+k patterns, but for strings |
| 11:56:28 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: you can do that pretty well with prisms |
| 11:59:56 | <[exa]> | as in, it's not gonna be a pattern without some extra work, but you can stash it somewhere in guards: | Just arg <- preview (prefixed "hahaha") arg = ... |
| 12:05:20 | <yin> | in the language J, (h f g) is (liftA2 f h g), a "monadic fork" they call it, as a basic syntax feature, which is GREAT |
| 12:06:03 | <[exa]> | yin: what's wrong with (+) <$> Just 1 <*> Just 2 ? |
| 12:06:17 | <yin> | :t liftA2 @((->) _) |
| 12:06:18 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘->’ |
| 12:06:31 | <yin> | hmm |
| 12:06:59 | <yin> | [exa]: liftA2 implementation can be more performant for some Applicatives |
| 12:07:25 | <probie> | yin: Is it that great? It works because verbs and nouns are distinct, and long trains are pretty hard to read |
| 12:07:33 | <yin> | % liftA2 @((->) _) |
| 12:07:33 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:19:1: error: [GHC-39999] ; • No instance for ‘Show ; ((a0 -> b0 -> c0) -> (w0 -> a0) -> (w0 -> b0) -> w0 -> c0)’ ; arising from a use of ‘Yahb2Def... |
| 12:08:15 | <yin> | I never know how to do this here |
| 12:08:50 | <probie> | % :t liftA2 @((->) _) |
| 12:08:51 | <yahb2> | liftA2 @((->) _) ; :: Applicative ((->) w) => ; (a -> b -> c) -> (w -> a) -> (w -> b) -> w -> c |
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| 12:17:51 | <[exa]> | yin: ah okay |
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| 12:29:48 | <yin> | probie: i like it. i agree with you though, for some definition of "hard to read" |
| 12:32:15 | <[exa]> | yin: btw in my code I usually do this with shortcuts like (<+>) = liftA2 (+). Most frequently with <:> I'd say. |
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| 12:40:02 | <ncf> | just don't do that with ($) or (*) and you'll be fine :) |
| 12:40:49 | <ncf> | (<*>) = liftA2 ($); (<$>) = liftA1 |
| 12:41:37 | <yin> | ok listen up |
| 12:42:03 | <yin> | lift f a b = liftA2 f (pure a) b |
| 12:42:20 | <yin> | no have <f> mean (lift f) |
| 12:42:25 | <yin> | s/no/now |
| 12:42:38 | <ncf> | you just want idiom brackets |
| 12:42:45 | <yin> | ncf: yes |
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| 12:47:18 | <yin> | ncf: wait are you talking about this? https://wiki.haskell.org/Idiom_brackets |
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| 12:48:49 | <yin> | not quite |
| 12:48:51 | <yin> | i want |
| 12:49:17 | <ncf> | well, i'm talking about the notation mcbride came up with, not that weird typeclass encoding. agda has this: https://agda.readthedocs.io/en/stable/language/syntactic-sugar.html#idiom-brackets |
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| 12:49:26 | <yin> | a <f> b = f <$> a <*> b |
| 12:50:11 | <yin> | or rather (pure a)? |
| 12:50:14 | <yin> | i don't know |
| 12:51:01 | <yin> | ncf oh that's nice |
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| 13:02:41 | <kaol> | I feel ridiculous after composing six fmaps in a row. If it works it works. |
| 13:03:43 | <merijn> | kaol: Maybe you need Compose? |
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| 13:08:32 | <yin> | or maybe you need to study the art of origami |
| 13:09:31 | <yin> | i want a language based uniquely on folds |
| 13:11:19 | <kaol> | I stacked that many maybes, eithers, lists and 2-tuples together. I'm just amused by it, that's all. |
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| 13:28:02 | <tomsmeding> | % :seti -XTemplateHaskell |
| 13:28:02 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 13:28:14 | <tomsmeding> | % import Language.Haskell.TH (Q, Exp) |
| 13:28:14 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 13:28:23 | <tomsmeding> | % fMAP :: Int -> Q Exp ; fMAP 0 = [| id |] ; fMAP n = [| fmap . $(fMAP (n - 1)) |] |
| 13:28:23 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 13:28:31 | <tomsmeding> | % $(fMAP 6) (+1) [[[[[[10]]]]]] |
| 13:28:31 | <yahb2> | [[[[[[11]]]]]] |
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| 13:46:53 | <ski> | yin : Charity ? |
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| 16:52:43 | <yin> | ski: unfamiliar |
| 16:54:14 | <ski> | @where Charity |
| 16:54:14 | <lambdabot> | http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/home.html |
| 16:54:29 | <Franciman> | ski: did you read Miller's book on logic programming? |
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| 16:58:52 | <ski> | based around inductive and coinductive data types |
| 16:59:40 | <ski> | Franciman : "Proof Theory and Logic Programming: Computation as Proof Search" by Dale Miller in 2025 at <https://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/~dale/ptlp/> ? |
| 16:59:46 | <Franciman> | ay! |
| 16:59:54 | <Franciman> | can't wait to get the book out |
| 17:00:00 | <Franciman> | it's a bit hard for my mind to read it |
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| 17:08:58 | <ski> | Franciman : i vaguely remember you bringing it up (?) before, but had forgotten about it. ty for the reminder |
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| 20:50:25 | <yin> | ski: this looks interesting |
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| 22:19:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:21:02 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
| 22:26:47 | × | sord937 quits (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937) |
| 22:29:48 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-187-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 22:30:15 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:32:45 | × | target_i quits (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving) |
| 22:34:31 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:34:40 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-50-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:34:53 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-50-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 22:42:02 | × | bgg quits (~bgg@2a01:e0a:819:1510:573a:3145:6af7:e234) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 22:42:05 | → | bgg_ joins (~bgg@2a01:e0a:819:1510:573a:3145:6af7:e234) |
| 22:45:39 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:47:05 | → | tzh joins (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 22:52:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 22:59:34 | × | jreicher quits (~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb) |
| 23:02:07 | → | emmanuelux joins (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) |
| 23:03:42 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:04:38 | → | machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d75-159-126-101.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 23:08:03 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 23:11:30 | × | haritz quits (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 23:17:41 | → | jreicher joins (~user@user/jreicher) |
| 23:26:37 | → | Lycurgus joins (~juan@user/Lycurgus) |
| 23:27:24 | × | sprotte24 quits (~sprotte24@p200300d16f33530008dc51ed686c9258.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 23:29:40 | × | califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 23:30:31 | → | califax joins (~califax@user/califx) |
| 23:36:44 | × | acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71719414833950799c296ee.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:37:58 | → | mange joins (~mange@user/mange) |
| 23:48:52 | × | jreicher quits (~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb) |
| 23:49:48 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:51:19 | × | ystael quits (~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 23:53:08 | → | jreicher joins (~user@user/jreicher) |
| 23:54:34 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 23:58:13 | × | FANTOM quits (~fantom@90.244.165.186) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:58:47 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) |
| 23:59:09 | → | Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-09-29.