Logs on 2025-10-04 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:48:08 | <dcpagan> | Does [Oleg Kiselyov](https://okmij.org/ftp/) have a GitHub? |
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| 03:13:42 | <ski> | dcpagan : delimited continuations can be implemented using undelimited ones and *state*, so i'm pretty sure that just having access to `callCC' (as opposed to say using `Cont',`ContT' or `Codensity') does not allow you to do the same things as `reset' and `shift'. and, afaik, Oleg does not have a GitHub account |
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| 04:09:11 | <jreicher> | dcpagan: my understanding is the same as ski's. You can implement callCC with delimited continuations, but I'm fairly sure the converse is not true. |
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| 08:02:18 | <bwe> | Parsing comma separated list with parentheses carrying another comma separated list, false-positive edge-case: comma as decimal separator: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/6fFqE1kR -- how to make the second doctest pass? I am afraid, I need to move away from fold as it sees only a single character :(. Which approach does your intuition tells you fits this case? |
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| 08:27:58 | <Leary> | bwe: Parser combinators? |
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| 09:37:56 | <tomsmeding> | yeah, either parser combinators, or iterative parsing: first recognise all numbers, then iteratively (if nesting is allowed) recognise all parenthesised blocks, then split on commas |
| 09:38:28 | <tomsmeding> | the iterative parsing approach feels simpler because it's more low-tech but it's also quite fragile with changes to the grammar, and it only works here because this grammar is simple enough |
| 09:38:53 | <tomsmeding> | you can also hand-code a state machine with your fold |
| 09:39:12 | <tomsmeding> | you already have a little state machine with the parenOpen state; you can have a separate boolean for "currently inside a number" |
| 09:39:23 | <tomsmeding> | but at that point, either formulate it really as a state machine, or use parser combinators |
| 09:39:36 | <tomsmeding> | bwe: ^ |
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| 09:54:02 | <jreicher> | parenOpen is state even if the evaluation order is not defined? |
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| 12:20:14 | ← | ds7832 parts (~ds7832@ip-037-049-102-199.um09.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Konversation terminated!) |
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| 12:20:55 | <Guest83> | Beginner to Haskelll have experience in java |
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| 12:21:21 | <Guest83> | Tell me books for beginners |
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| 12:26:49 | <Guest83> | Tell me books for beginners |
| 12:26:57 | <Guest83> | Have experience in java |
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| 12:28:56 | <morj> | Guest83: https://learnyouahaskell.com/ |
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| 12:30:39 | <int-e> | morj: have you tried that link recently? |
| 12:31:32 | <morj> | Just tried it, a lot of php errors on top |
| 12:31:42 | <morj> | Oh damn, and no styles in the content |
| 12:31:45 | <morj> | What happened? |
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| 12:32:06 | <int-e> | There's a mirror: https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/ |
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| 12:32:20 | <yushyin> | now I have closed the website I wanted to share with them for a second time because they left |
| 12:33:17 | <morj> | What did you want to share? |
| 12:33:20 | <int-e> | morj: presumably the author hosted it and is no longer interested nor contractually obligated to maintain it. |
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| 12:33:36 | <int-e> | @where lyah |
| 12:33:36 | <lambdabot> | http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ or the slightly updated fork https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/ |
| 12:34:02 | <morj> | I picked lyah since they were a java programmer, and lyah I find was a good way to learn functional thinking |
| 12:34:07 | <yushyin> | morj: https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books this one |
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| 12:35:05 | <n0den1te> | IIRC, there was a fork of RWH updated to the latest GHC APIs? Anyone have that link handy? |
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| 12:37:32 | <n0den1te> | yushyin: thanks, I found the unofficial updated RWH URL from your link: https://github.com/tssm/up-to-date-real-world-haskell |
| 12:37:43 | <yushyin> | :D nice |
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| 12:37:47 | <n0den1te> | from here: https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books/real-world-haskell |
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| 12:45:13 | <morj> | Are there any haskell communities in xmpp? |
| 12:45:33 | <morj> | I'm pleasantly surprised by how relatively alive they are in irc and matrix, and I want to try xmpp too |
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| 12:49:15 | <n0den1te> | you may find something here: https://search.jabber.network - although I don't see much activity for haskell |
| 12:49:23 | <n0den1te> | morj: ^ |
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| 12:53:16 | <morj> | Russian haskell community is 1 person larger than russian programming community :D |
| 12:53:18 | <ski> | @where RWH |
| 12:53:18 | <lambdabot> | http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ https://github.com/tssm/up-to-date-real-world-haskell |
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| 12:53:41 | <ski> | one russian Haskeller is not a programmer ? |
| 12:54:08 | <morj> | They are too much of a purist I recon |
| 12:54:20 | <ski> | i see |
| 12:55:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> morj: I wonder how do bridged replies look |
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| 12:55:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> What about |
| 12:55:46 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/RoPvuxFMmHoNyDhaaFVTRaCP/58ySn6InjSg (3 lines) |
| 12:55:51 | <morj> | I see |
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| 13:02:08 | morj | is now known as morj_away |
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| 17:02:50 | <tomsmeding> | morj: irc doesn't have a concept of multiline messages at all |
| 17:04:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Really? I had a hunch |
| 17:04:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> So you just don't send code snippets through irc at all? (= |
| 17:05:05 | <int-e> | right, you use a pastebin |
| 17:05:13 | <int-e> | @where paste |
| 17:05:13 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 17:05:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> If only erlang channel had all those nicities |
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| 17:27:24 | <geekosaur> | also any long messages, including code snippets, from the matrix bridge go into a pastebin automatically… but it's not a very good one |
| 17:27:34 | <geekosaur> | also media |
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| 19:41:28 | <alteragent> | [Network Announcement] AMERICA NEEDS YOU - Secure our borders, get a signing bonus, enter the federal workforce and subvert the swamp from within, no degree required. https://join.ice.gov |
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| 19:42:31 | <sm> | seriously ??? |
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| 20:07:07 | <bwe> | tomsmeding: true, I just need to extend it by a state that tracks whether it's currently in a number |
| 20:11:41 | <bwe> | Leary: I had parser combinators in mind, too; yet I had no first vague idea how to approach it with them. If you can relate a similar example to me, that would help. |
| 20:12:35 | <bwe> | (I mean, I define a parser that matches and just need to combine them with <|> in the right precedence, is that it?) |
| 20:13:14 | <bwe> | (and on a more basic note, how do I make a condition like "anything but not a digit" with Megaparsec?) |
| 20:13:46 | <tomsmeding> | `satisfy isDigit`? |
| 20:13:57 | <tomsmeding> | also `digit` probably |
| 20:15:00 | <bwe> | so the negation would be `anySingleBut` ? |
| 20:15:19 | <tomsmeding> | satisfy (not . isDigit)? |
| 20:15:31 | <bwe> | of course :) |
| 20:15:36 | <tomsmeding> | "anything but not a digit" is a double negation :p |
| 20:15:55 | <tomsmeding> | so I guess you were asking for `satisfy (not . not . isDigit)` :p |
| 20:16:08 | <sprout> | this is weirdly satisfying |
| 20:16:42 | <bwe> | tomsmeding: I clarify, single negation, so `satisfy (not . isDigit)` is what I need |
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| 20:17:42 | <bwe> | is there some list of parser combinator tutorials you can recommend? |
| 20:18:01 | <tomsmeding> | megaparsec has an official tutorial, if I remember correctly |
| 20:18:15 | <tomsmeding> | I don't remember people saying it's bad, so it must be good, right? |
| 20:18:45 | <bwe> | the thing I am not grasping is the nesting, so using some parser combinators once I am in the parenthesis, for example |
| 20:19:59 | <bwe> | I need to give it another try -- the last time I tried it didn't work too well for me |
| 20:20:28 | <zfnmxt> | bwe: You mind find these notes a bit gentler and easier to understand (there are corresponding exercises and an assignment on the repo too): https://diku-dk.github.io/ap-notes/chapter_3.html |
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| 20:21:30 | <tomsmeding> | zfnmxt: thank you, please hang around more and share all your good stuffs |
| 20:22:08 | <zfnmxt> | bwe: Don't think the repo is directly linked there, but it's here: https://github.com/diku-dk/ap-e2025-pub (see week 3 and a3 in particular) |
| 20:22:48 | <zfnmxt> | tomsmeding: Most of that good stuff is written by Troels, not me. But will do. |
| 20:23:28 | <tomsmeding> | "your" as in, the good stuff that you know :p |
| 20:26:03 | <bwe> | zfnmxt: Exciting. I will start with that. It's indeed much more gentle and easier to digest/follow. Less frustration points to be expected. |
| 20:29:30 | <zfnmxt> | bwe: Have fun! |
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| 20:35:05 | <[exa]> | evenin' |
| 20:38:37 | <[exa]> | bwe: if I get it right, you might like the `notFollowedBy` from parsecs for solving this case; since this is PEGs getting parsed you can use the lookahead pretty well for doing good. |
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| 20:43:58 | <bwe> | [exa]: Yes, this would fit my case, too. Reminds me of regular expressions. But weren't parser combinators better for leaving regular expressions? |
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| 20:44:29 | <[exa]> | wait wait how's lookahead looking like regular expressions? |
| 20:44:43 | <[exa]> | (except for the cool new regular expressions that are actually not regular) |
| 20:44:46 | sprout | 🍿 |
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| 20:46:09 | <bwe> | zfnmxt: I have the feeling that composing parsers is just the nesting use case I have on hand :) -- but will see when I walk through the article. Thanks again for sharing. |
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| 20:46:40 | <monochrom> | I feel that most beginner uses of lookahead are boolean blindness brought to parsing. |
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| 20:47:59 | <monochrom> | Suppose your requirement is "there are 2 cases for the next character. If it's X, parse for foo; if it's Y, parse for bar". |
| 20:48:28 | <monochrom> | You can easily code that up as simply "foo <|> bar" assuming that foo expects X at the beginning, similarly for Y. |
| 20:49:05 | <bwe> | monochrom: actually, parser combinators are like a tree that is branching, thanks for inspiring this. |
| 20:49:14 | <monochrom> | But no, beginners want to write "c <- lookahead; if c == 'X' then foo else if c == 'Y' then bar else error" because that's what they would write in C. |
| 20:49:39 | <monochrom> | (And they would write like that in C because boolean blindness.) |
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| 20:51:52 | <EvanR> | this sort of parsing is well defined but can't be parallelized |
| 20:52:38 | <bwe> | [exa]: I've learned about them at a time I learned regular expressions. And I learned to avoid them (do I remember correctly that they were mostly bad for performance?). So, being burnt like that, I feel hesitant to use them in parser combinators (a reason / alternative for me not to use regexes). |
| 20:52:41 | <EvanR> | it seems like context free grammar could benefit from parallel |
| 20:52:51 | <monochrom> | (Sapir-Worf applies here. 1970s languages forces boolean blindness on you. I reckon that it is unfair to blame beginners.) |
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| 20:53:48 | <EvanR> | actual regular expression based parsers can be very fast |
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| 20:53:52 | <monochrom> | Deeply recursive CFG may overwhelm your computer if you parallelize it :) |
| 20:53:59 | <[exa]> | monochrom: well that use is a programming issue, they lookahead and then have to move manually :] |
| 20:54:49 | <monochrom> | E.g., remember last time telling cabal-install to do unlimited parallel builds caused a lot of trouble (in the form of thrashing)? |
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| 20:55:28 | <EvanR> | first law of parallel programming, if you just do the task N times in parallel it probably hurts |
| 20:55:59 | <[exa]> | bwe: yeah for regex the lookaheads are detrimental because they destroy the usual (fast) DFA/NFA-style processing. For general PEGs the lookaheads are the determining property that you can do quite easily that is not really allowed in actual context-free grammars. There are pretty fast PEG parsers where lookaheads are "essentially free" |
| 20:56:12 | <[exa]> | (the packrat/pika parser family) |
| 20:57:27 | <monochrom> | parsec and megaparsec are actually pretty good for PEG. Although independently conceived, both minimized backtracking, that's why. |
| 20:57:50 | <[exa]> | kinda wondering how they implement the lookaheads |
| 20:57:57 | [exa] | dives |
| 20:58:09 | <monochrom> | (In the case of PEG, completely banned. In the case of *parsec, backtracking is opt-in, non-default.) |
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| 21:06:22 | [exa] | resurfaces |
| 21:06:37 | <monochrom> | "returned from deep recursion" :) |
| 21:07:34 | <[exa]> | ok megaparsec just backtracks, not as good as I hoped for but in the above case I guess it's valid (the lookahead ends quickly and prevents extra logic elsewhere) |
| 21:08:20 | <monochrom> | Whenever I teach CFG, I show this comic to students: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/language |
| 21:10:16 | <monochrom> | I haven't checked, but I guess that if your lookahead is bounded-length, then you still enjoy LL(k) efficiency. |
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| 21:11:52 | <monochrom> | Another way to say it is you have bounded backtracking or trial-and-error so it doesn't count as the bad kind of backtracking :) |
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| 21:15:19 | <[exa]> | yeah but do you want to compile LL(k) manually to the state tables? :D |
| 21:15:39 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah the lookahead here is very bounded |
| 21:17:40 | <monochrom> | Yeah *parsec will do fine. |
| 21:18:40 | <[exa]> | I'm bookmarking that comic for lisp reasons |
| 21:18:49 | <monochrom> | haha |
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