Logs on 2025-10-06 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:07:30 | <yang_> | perser combinators are way cool but recently I fell in love with the simplicity of semantic regexes I learned while using scheme |
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| 02:19:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> are those regexps with a more human readable syntax ? |
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| 03:14:50 | <dcpagan> | Not really a Haskell question, but is there a standard mathematical notation for a unary prefix operator denoting the reciprocal? |
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| 03:17:14 | <monochrom> | No, it has always been postfix superscript -1. |
| 03:17:46 | <monochrom> | Standard math notation was evolved not designed. |
| 03:18:09 | <dcpagan> | Man, I really hate that notation. That's not even an operator, but an exponent. |
| 03:18:43 | <dcpagan> | We overloaded minus in an unary context to mean negation. Why can't we do the same thing with the solidus? |
| 03:19:24 | <dcpagan> | "2 + -2 = 0" is accepted. Why not "2 * /2 = 1"? |
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| 03:27:02 | <Maxdamantus> | Is "2 + - - 2 = 4" accepted? |
| 03:28:12 | <Maxdamantus> | works in JS at least, dunno about standard notation. |
| 03:29:55 | <Maxdamantus> | I vote for "x 0 1 - ^" as the notation for reciprocals. |
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| 03:40:17 | <dcpagan> | Prefix operators usually have no space between them and their operand. |
| 03:40:30 | <dcpagan> | Also, they often are parenthesized with the operand. |
| 03:44:15 | <Maxdamantus> | So is "2 + --2 = 4" accepted then? |
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| 03:44:41 | <jreicher> | dcpagan: I think this is a bit like arguing cube root should be a unary operator |
| 03:45:31 | <jreicher> | Square root kind of is through omission of the number, but not even squaring is a unary operator |
| 03:45:45 | <fgidim> | i think haskell kind of supports this with sections. don't know if it is readable though. (1/) |
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| 03:49:56 | <EvanR_> | dcpagan, postfix -1 is not necessarily an "exponent" |
| 03:50:14 | <EvanR_> | though it is consistent with exponents e.g. 3.14 * 10^-1 |
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| 03:51:51 | <EvanR> | and it doesn't just mean reciprocal it's inverse |
| 03:54:31 | <jreicher> | EvanR: I think it amounts to the same if you allow for a fractional number of applications of an operator (e.g. fractional derivative generalises -1 as the antiderivative) |
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| 03:56:11 | <EvanR> | that makes no sense |
| 03:56:48 | <EvanR> | like average number of 2.2 kids |
| 03:59:07 | <jreicher> | I'm not sure it's much worse than moving from multiplication as repeated addition (which requires one number to be a positive integer) to the situation where neither of the numbers are positive integers. Multiplication becomes detached from the intuitive meaning at that point and is just an algebraic operation. |
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| 04:07:28 | <jreicher> | dcpagan: you've really got me thinking about negation now. I actually don't think it's an operator at all. It's an angle. |
| 04:10:31 | <dcpagan> | The context of this question on notation is that I'm playing around with delimited continuations, and I had to program a monad to structure field operations. |
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| 04:10:54 | <dcpagan> | I want an elegant notation standard for formatting the reciprocal. |
| 04:10:59 | <dcpagan> | Here is my sandbox: https://github.com/DCPagan/haskell-sandbox.git |
| 04:13:17 | <jreicher> | That even more convinces me you're not after an operator; you're after a syntactically nice literal notation for certain elements |
| 04:13:24 | <jreicher> | Right? |
| 04:14:43 | <dcpagan> | Yes, I am. |
| 04:14:59 | <dcpagan> | Prefix unary notations parse and format nicely |
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| 04:18:33 | <dcpagan> | And I need to format these field expressions to see how delimited continuations manipulate expressions. |
| 04:18:55 | <dcpagan> | My delimited continuation program prints this: "(* (* 3 /2) (* 5 /2))" |
| 04:19:56 | <jreicher> | I quite like your idea of /2, /3, etc. It's got some solid parallels. 0 is the additive identity, and we omit zero in 0-3, and omit both the zero and the operator in 3-0. 1 is the multiplicative identity, and if we omit both the 1 and the operator in 3/1, it's a solid parallel to omit the number in /3 |
| 04:21:11 | <dcpagan> | Omitting units would require parsing 0's and 1's into their respective units, and reformatting the format to an histomorphism to peer deeper into the recursive structure. |
| 04:22:06 | <EvanR> | jreicher, there exists abstraction "monoid with minus operation" |
| 04:22:14 | <EvanR> | monus |
| 04:22:20 | <dcpagan> | But I primarily wrote this sandbox to grok how delimited continuations manipulate computations by designing a simple field monad to structure those computations. |
| 04:22:46 | <dcpagan> | Algebraically speaking, the minus operator is the right inverse additive group operator. |
| 04:23:11 | <dcpagan> | Divide is the right inverse partial group operator of the field. |
| 04:23:14 | <jreicher> | EvanR: yeah I've come across monus with Church numerals. |
| 04:23:23 | <dcpagan> | What's a monus? |
| 04:23:50 | <jreicher> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monus |
| 04:24:38 | <dcpagan> | That looks like a partial obelus. |
| 04:25:39 | <dcpagan> | I deliberatively took out the minus and divide operators in my monad to base it on abstract algebraic terms. |
| 04:25:48 | <EvanR> | dennis ritchie's phd thesis? then it's canon |
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| 04:26:17 | <dcpagan> | Which is why the lack of a sane unary prefix for the reciprocal so vexes me. |
| 04:26:44 | <jreicher> | When you first asked your question I grabbed my copy of Concrete Mathematics. I thought if anyone was going to be fussy about notation, Knuth would be... |
| 04:27:20 | <dcpagan> | I have Serge Lang's Algebra with me right now, and even he uses (^-1). |
| 04:28:48 | <jreicher> | Mathematicians don't usually write parsers. And I'm not joking; I think that's the real difference in what you're doing. Means you have literals for the elements. |
| 04:29:53 | <Leary> | dcpagan: Just write `recip` or `invert` or `inverse` and be done with it. It doesn't matter if it isn't standard if it can be understood at a glance. |
| 04:30:38 | <EvanR> | we have it |
| 04:30:40 | <EvanR> | recip |
| 04:30:42 | <EvanR> | enjoy |
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| 04:31:25 | <EvanR> | pretty sure I've seen a function called "inv" somewhere |
| 04:31:40 | <EvanR> | saving you two characters |
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| 04:34:22 | <jreicher> | https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Reciprocal same idea, basically (fairly Iverson was also fussy about notation) |
| 04:34:29 | <jreicher> | ...fairly sure... |
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| 04:34:37 | <dcpagan> | I recently took a glance at ISO 80000-2 and discovered that the international standard parses the solidus ("/") divide operator with a very low precedence to denote fractional notation, and split the whole expression into numerator and denominator. |
| 04:34:42 | <dcpagan> | https://raptros.com/blog/2019-obelus/ |
| 04:34:56 | <dcpagan> | Standard mathematical notation is cracked. |
| 04:36:06 | <EvanR> | a big ass line between two expressions to denote a fraction was pioneered by the egyptians if you squint hard enough |
| 04:36:15 | <dcpagan> | That's nothing like how bc parses expressions. |
| 04:36:31 | <EvanR> | | over numeral for whatever number was the reciprocol of that number |
| 04:36:48 | <EvanR> | spookily similar to today's notation |
| 04:37:31 | <EvanR> | for some reason it wasn't proper to put anything other than one in the numerator |
| 04:38:05 | <EvanR> | not that that was considered "the numerator" |
| 04:38:22 | <EvanR> | just notation (?) |
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| 04:43:51 | <dcpagan> | jreicher: Overloading the obelus ("÷") for the reciprocal seems like a good idea; ISO 80000-2 has deprecated its use for division, so I may as well overload it to mean reciprocal for my personal notation. |
| 04:45:31 | <jreicher> | Honestly I didn't know APL had that. But I was aware of Iverson's other work on notation. |
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| 09:27:04 | <bwe> | How do I run JS from Haskell? Like https://kiesel.dev/. |
| 09:27:27 | <dminuoso> | bwe: Depends, do you need *any* bindings at all? |
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| 09:28:25 | <dminuoso> | i.e. any kind of FFI, or just input/outout bindings, or do you just want to run Node.js as a process? |
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| 09:29:33 | <merijn> | dminuoso: That link is an embeded JS interpreter afaict |
| 09:29:53 | <merijn> | Written in Zig, so I'm guessing the answer is "interact with it's API via FFI" |
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| 09:30:03 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Well Im not quite sure how the website demonstrates any sort of requirements. |
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| 09:30:11 | <dminuoso> | Apart from "it runs javascript" |
| 09:30:23 | <dminuoso> | Because then its just `runProcess` |
| 09:32:11 | <dminuoso> | From a security perspective alone, user definable code must run at least in a separate process. |
| 09:32:13 | <bwe> | dminuoso: I've no clue at the moment (I am trying to get a basic yt-dlp working which executes the YT player js). So, specifically, equivalent to https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp/blob/master/yt_dlp/jsinterp.py#L263 |
| 09:32:21 | <dminuoso> | (To me, a separate process wouldn't even be enough) |
| 09:32:48 | <bwe> | (I am not sure whether the Zig thing would map to the requirement, tbh) |
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| 09:36:42 | <dminuoso> | bwe: jsaddle is probably your best bet. |
| 09:37:58 | <bwe> | here we go: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/jsaddle-0.9.9.3/docs/Language-Javascript-JSaddle-Evaluate.html#v:eval |
| 09:39:30 | <dminuoso> | bwe: Im not entirely sure how you would attach jsaddle to a standalone javascript engine (or whether its possible) |
| 09:39:59 | <dminuoso> | I mean you could use a browser if you're fine with that. |
| 09:40:31 | <bwe> | dminuoso: do you understand jsaddle to just run the script OR that it requires some engine to do the job? |
| 09:41:27 | <dminuoso> | bwe: It does require an engine, but you cant just straight up "pick v8" for instance. |
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| 09:53:36 | <bwe> | So, what is https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/jsaddle-0.9.9.3/docs/Language-Javascript-JSaddle-Evaluate.html#v:eval then doing if it is not using an engine? |
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| 09:57:58 | <dminuoso> | bwe: It does not give you IO JSVal. |
| 09:58:38 | <dminuoso> | bwe: Note that JSM is essentially a `JSContextRef` attached to some IO that needs to be actually fed to a JavaScript engine. |
| 09:59:30 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/jsaddle-0.9.9.3/docs/Language-Javascript-JSaddle-Null.html#v:run |
| 09:59:33 | <dminuoso> | Is one of those things |
| 09:59:57 | <dminuoso> | But that one doesnt actually do anything. |
| 10:00:53 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/jsaddle-warp-0.9.9.5/docs/Language-Javascript-JSaddle-Warp.html#v:run |
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| 11:50:45 | <yang_> | dcpagan: in lisp if you only give one operand to the / operator you get the reciprocal: (/ 7) = (/ 1 7) |
| 11:51:12 | <yang_> | same in at least some array languages |
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| 14:31:20 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: update, in case you're interested https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/26465 |
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| 15:24:31 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: wow cool, thx |
| 15:25:32 | <tomsmeding> | reporting bugs like these to ghc is fun, you get to see very smart people solve problems |
| 15:25:49 | <[exa]> | yeah I'm completely lost there |
| 15:25:51 | <[exa]> | :D |
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| 17:17:05 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, staring at the text it does not read that complicated. |
| 17:17:48 | <mauke> | *zonk* |
| 17:18:42 | <dminuoso> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/cvs-ghc/2012-September/076185.html |
| 17:18:51 | <dminuoso> | "Remember to zonk the skolems of an implication" |
| 17:19:16 | <dminuoso> | We Haskellers just love using funky names |
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| 18:25:22 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: right, the problem diagnosis by Sam sounds like something sensible to me (though I haven't cross-referenced the ghc code -- just the description sounds sensible) |
| 18:25:47 | <tomsmeding> | but as he says, whether one can just... not do that zonking is a question I have no idea how to answer :) |
| 18:26:21 | <tomsmeding> | someone seems to have thought at some point that it was essential, presumably to preserve some kind of invariant -- naturally, said invariant was not documented |
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| 21:19:41 | <jreicher> | dminuoso: well, skolem is an actual name. :) |
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| 21:20:06 | <dminuoso> | jreicher: Im sure so is Zonk. |
| 21:20:44 | jreicher | does a web search for zonk's lemma... |
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| 21:27:05 | <dolio> | "Zonk is the sound it makes" |
| 21:27:10 | <int-e> | There's this red rat thing: https://www.sigikid.de/en/Zonk-the-consolation-prize-of-Geh-aufs-Ganze/81304 |
| 21:28:02 | <mauke> | https://c.nau.ch/i/oa9d6/1360/680/jorg-draeger-re-daniel-boschmann-und-die-schonste-niete-im-deutschen-fernsehen-der-zonk.jpg |
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| 21:31:08 | <jreicher> | So the wombles had a type theorist in the family all along |
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| 21:39:31 | [exa] | zonks some thunks |
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| 21:55:23 | fgarcia | feeds the STG machine a bunch of functions |
| 21:55:50 | <[exa]> | fgarcia: listen to the machine. what do you hear? |
| 21:56:10 | <int-e> | "thunk" |
| 21:56:19 | <fgarcia> | it doesn't sound too happy |
| 21:56:20 | <int-e> | or maybe *thunk* |
| 21:57:06 | <[exa]> | strong nethack vibes with "Machine eats the function. You hear a muffled thunk." |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-10-06.