Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-10-08 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:05:32 × kaskal quits (~kaskal@84-115-235-223.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
00:05:40 Googulator14 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
00:05:42 × Googulator97 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
00:05:50 kaskal joins (~kaskal@84-115-235-223.cable.dynamic.surfer.at)
00:07:07 × trickard__ quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:07:21 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:07:58 × ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:10:25 trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
00:12:13 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:17:39 × dyno quits (dyno@user/dyno) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1)
00:17:58 dyno joins (dyno@user/dyno)
00:22:45 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:24:23 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:fbe4:4f3c:f608:c4da) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
00:25:34 × Googulator14 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
00:25:39 Googulator35 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
00:26:55 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:33:03 dyno parts (dyno@user/dyno) (WeeChat 4.1.1)
00:37:33 tabemann__ joins (~tabemann@172-13-49-137.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
00:37:33 tabemann__ is now known as tabemann
00:38:07 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:40:57 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-187-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
00:45:05 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:46:55 × SlackCoder quits (~SlackCode@64-94-63-8.ip.weststar.net.ky) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:55:13 × otto_s quits (~user@p5de2f28b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:56:09 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:56:28 otto_s joins (~user@p5de2f8a0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
00:57:26 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:57:50 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
01:00:31 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:00:39 × Googulator35 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
01:00:45 Googulator83 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
01:02:24 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
01:02:54 dyno joins (dyno@user/dyno)
01:06:08 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
01:07:52 × Square quits (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
01:09:51 × Pozyomka quits (~pyon@user/pyon) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
01:10:11 Pozyomka joins (~pyon@user/pyon)
01:10:37 × Googulator83 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
01:10:42 Googulator59 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
01:11:09 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:11:31 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:16:12 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
01:17:26 trickard_ is now known as trickard
01:23:31 xff0x joins (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
01:26:55 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:31:49 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
01:33:13 × Unicorn_Princess quits (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:35:03 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
01:36:52 xff0x joins (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
01:42:08 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
01:42:18 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:45:47 Googulator45 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
01:45:47 × Googulator59 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
01:45:47 × synchrom1 quits (~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:39fd:af6c:a9e5:b1c5) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:46:44 synchromesh joins (~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:59f4:ea7:a30f:8ab4)
01:46:51 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:56:30 craunts7953 joins (~craunts@136.158.7.194)
01:57:00 divlamir_ joins (~divlamir@user/divlamir)
01:57:57 × divlamir quits (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:57:57 × vgtw_ quits (~vgtw@user/vgtw) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
01:57:57 a_fantom joins (~fantom@87.75.184.126)
01:57:57 × kaskal quits (~kaskal@84-115-235-223.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:57:57 divlamir_ is now known as divlamir
01:58:08 × craunts795 quits (~craunts@136.158.7.194) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:58:11 × otto_s quits (~user@p5de2f8a0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:58:11 × FANTOM quits (~fantom@87.75.184.126) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:58:11 × shapr quits (~user@130.44.148.32) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:58:18 otto_s joins (~user@p5de2f8a0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
01:58:25 shapr joins (~user@130.44.148.32)
01:58:29 vgtw joins (~vgtw@user/vgtw)
01:58:40 kaskal joins (~kaskal@2a02:8388:1a8b:7d00:da7b:74b4:ea7f:2207)
01:58:45 × typedfern_ quits (~Typedfern@15.red-83-37-26.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:59:08 typedfern_ joins (~Typedfern@15.red-83-37-26.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
02:00:54 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Quit: xff0x)
02:03:10 xff0x joins (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
02:03:51 × a_fantom quits (~fantom@87.75.184.126) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:05:54 FANTOM joins (~fantom@87.75.184.126)
02:07:38 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
02:12:01 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
02:13:03 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:19:52 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:20:16 × shapr quits (~user@130.44.148.32) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:31:08 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:33:05 <bgg__> Hello
02:33:11 bgg__ is now known as bgg
02:35:19 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:35:39 × Googulator45 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
02:35:40 Googulator83 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
02:41:42 trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
02:42:01 × trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
02:45:47 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:46:30 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:47:22 xff0x joins (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
02:49:50 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: peterbecich)
02:50:08 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
02:50:56 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:51:06 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:51:24 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
02:55:01 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:55:17 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
02:58:45 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Client Quit)
02:59:00 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
03:01:05 × trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:01:19 trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
03:01:54 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:06:08 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:07:34 aforemny_ joins (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ce1:5a00:119f:ba7b:f92f:1a2c)
03:08:53 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
03:09:01 × aforemny quits (~aforemny@i59F4C440.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
03:10:45 Googulator50 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
03:10:45 × Googulator83 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
03:13:33 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:17:19 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:20:15 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
03:23:44 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:28:07 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:28:59 trickard_ is now known as trickard
03:29:48 karenw joins (~karenw@user/karenw)
03:33:28 × olivial quits (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
03:39:06 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:43:23 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
03:45:53 <ski> hello bgg
03:46:03 olivial joins (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl)
03:47:06 × L29Ah quits (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
03:50:15 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:52:36 sajenim joins (~sajenim@user/sajenim)
03:54:29 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:57:42 × superstar64 quits (~superstar@2600:1700:57e0:e3c0::31) (Quit: Leaving)
04:00:37 × Googulator50 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
04:00:43 Googulator58 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
04:01:09 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:10:03 chenjf joins (~chenjf@104.208.72.114)
04:10:53 × chenjf quits (~chenjf@104.208.72.114) (Client Quit)
04:12:32 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
04:16:56 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
04:27:54 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
04:28:13 × olivial quits (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:28:28 olivial joins (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl)
04:30:06 wootehfoot joins (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
04:30:38 Googulator43 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
04:30:39 × Googulator58 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
04:32:25 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
04:34:56 michalz joins (~michalz@185.246.207.221)
04:39:43 chewybread joins (~chewybrea@user/chewybread)
04:43:18 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
04:46:13 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
04:47:54 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
04:50:53 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
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04:55:38 × Googulator43 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
04:56:07 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:56:24 peterbecich1 joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
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04:59:31 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:59:31 peterbecich1 is now known as peterbecich
05:02:35 peterbecich1 joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
05:02:53 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: peterbecich)
05:02:53 peterbecich1 is now known as peterbecich
05:03:07 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
05:04:32 peterbecich1 joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
05:04:39 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:04:39 peterbecich1 is now known as peterbecich
05:05:24 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Client Quit)
05:05:42 peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
05:07:34 peterbecich1 joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com)
05:07:41 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:07:41 peterbecich1 is now known as peterbecich
05:09:20 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:14:15 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
05:15:38 Googulator26 joins (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu)
05:15:38 × Googulator11 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
05:20:21 humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
05:24:42 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:26:34 × chewybread quits (~chewybrea@user/chewybread) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:26:57 chewybread joins (~chewybrea@user/chewybread)
05:28:55 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:29:25 × chewybread quits (~chewybrea@user/chewybread) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:34:05 × wootehfoot quits (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
05:34:53 × ft quits (~ft@p4fc2a225.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
05:36:32 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:40:07 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
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06:10:20 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
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06:50:42 × trampi8 quits (~trampi@mx.trampusch.info) (Client Quit)
06:54:45 × Sgeo quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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07:26:44 merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
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07:30:37 × Googulator22 quits (~Googulato@193-226-241-224.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
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07:31:49 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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07:52:32 × fp quits (~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::10c5) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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07:55:57 trampi8 is now known as trampi
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08:35:53 <fgarcia> i think type tetris is real. ghc is cool
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08:44:29 <[exa]> fgarcia: type tetris is underrated
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08:49:37 <fgarcia> [exa]: i have been learning haskell these few weeks and got curious enough to check out other types for the numbers. i am liking how the compiler is helping me make things more general
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08:51:25 <[exa]> wait for the type tetris equivalent of smashing in the 4-square stick :D
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09:13:23 <haskellbridge> <sm> are other matrix clients besides Element also very slow at showing the history of IRC-bridged matrix rooms like this one ?
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09:15:47 <haskellbridge> <sm> because of the high number of join/leave events, presumably
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09:20:09 <haskellbridge> <Morj> sm: Cinny is fine, but cinny doesn't collapse room state changes, and there are a ton of them. Afaik the amount of events fetched by default when scrolling up history is somewhat low, so to see just one uncollapsed message would take a lot of fetching
09:22:05 <haskellbridge> <sm> that sounds like my IRC client (Textual, on mac) which if I leave join/leave events visible, shows page after page of those with scattered actual messages
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09:23:21 <haskellbridge> <sm> If I hide them entirely, I lose important presence hints. Still, I see I can do that in Element too, let's see if it helps performance
09:24:53 <haskellbridge> <sm> no; still takes tens of seconds to show a pageful of messages here
09:26:56 <haskellbridge> <sm> it makes rooms like this one or #GHC:matrix.org (https://matrix.to/#/#GHC:matrix.org) unattractive, which is unfortunate
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09:30:47 <haskellbridge> <sm> maybe Element's famous "fast sliding sync" has regressed..
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09:45:17 <haskellbridge> <Morj> sm: I'm itching to write an irc client that would show join/part events only for users that participated in the conversation recently
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09:46:43 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> you're talking about merijn? xD
09:46:54 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Ditto for a matrix client, but there are so so many things one could improve. You know what they say, those who never used telegram-desktop are doomed to repeat its competitor's mistakes
09:47:09 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Isn't mеrijn a person? (=
09:47:21 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> used to be
09:47:30 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> these days maybe just an IRC bouncer
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12:41:06 <mauke> Morj: sounds like something you could script in irssi
12:42:22 <bwe> *** Exception: Prelude.last: empty list
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12:42:43 <bwe> how can I get a little more context?
12:42:54 <bwe> (and why isn't it default?)
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12:48:34 <tomsmeding> bwe: haskell, being lazy, does not necessarily execute according to the lexical structure of your program; as a result, in contrast to e.g. C/C++, there is no hardware call stack that you can just read off and get something useful
12:49:23 <tomsmeding> there are two things you can do to get something useful: print the actual haskell evaluation stack (which is in order of forcing, not in order of "calls" in your program); you can get that by compiling in profiling mode and running with +RTS -xc
12:49:35 <tomsmeding> (cabal run --enable-profiling yourprogram -- +RTS -xc)
12:49:56 <bwe> would that automatically show a context (e.g. where the Prelude.last was called)?
12:50:27 <tomsmeding> alternatively, you can add additional annotations to your program that explicitly collect lexical call stack info; this slows down the program a little because it now does more work and also inhibits some optimisations
12:50:55 <tomsmeding> actually I think this latter thing is already done automatically if you --enable-profiling in cabal
12:51:33 <tomsmeding> bwe: yes, with --enable-profilng, optionally with +RTS -xc, you should get more backtrace info
12:52:14 <tomsmeding> -xc prints backtrace info on EVERY thrown exception though, even if it ends up being caught later -- this is a fun way to find out that the haskell standard library uses quite a bunch of exceptions internally sometimes
12:52:42 <tomsmeding> bwe: what GHC version are you on?
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12:53:38 <tomsmeding> you may need ghc 9.10 or higher to get the lexical profiling backtraces
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12:55:01 <tomsmeding> @tell morj that "join/part only for users that participated recently" is built-in behaviour in weechat in the irc.look.smart_filter* settings
12:55:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:56:06 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I really want to know how that at-tell is supposed to look without a bridge
12:56:15 <tomsmeding> oh brainfart
12:56:19 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Thanks for the info tоmsmeding and mаuke
12:56:33 <tomsmeding> that @tell is a lambdabot thing that sends that to you in a private message when you next join on irc
12:56:34 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I did think there already exist some that are reasonable, it's an old protocol
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12:56:58 <tomsmeding> I did that without thinking when Morj didn't autocomplete, but that was because you're over the bridge lol
12:57:32 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Lowercase morj is my irc nick, but I only use it from one PC which is not this one
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12:59:28 <tomsmeding> I consider this smart_filter stuff essential to even consider participating in a room like this :p
12:59:28 <bwe> tomsmeding: 9.12.2
12:59:34 <tomsmeding> bwe: nice
13:00:11 <bwe> tomsmeding: Well, I just eliminated any occurence of last and I am done. That's simpler than restarting repl with profiling options…
13:00:19 <tomsmeding> :)
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13:00:42 <tomsmeding> bwe: the low-tech alternative to all this is to add HasCallStack constraints to functions that call `last`
13:00:58 <tomsmeding> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/GHC-Stack.html#t:CallStack
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13:01:03 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Btw is there by chance a ghc option that will automatically collect evaluation stack in IO only?
13:01:26 <haskellbridge> <Morj> For now I have a vim macro that will insert HasCallStack everywhere and recompile
13:01:26 <tomsmeding> not that I know of
13:01:53 <tomsmeding> Morj: there is this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-project-description-file.html#cfg-field-profiling-detail
13:02:28 <tomsmeding> but that doesn't have the granularity that you're asking for
13:03:46 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I thought profiling is about execution time, not about error reporting, but it makes sense that annotations can work for both
13:03:57 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Cabal with their docs again :/
13:04:00 <tomsmeding> HasCallStack is separate from profiling
13:04:38 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I know, I'm talking about error location/backtrace reporting, that's what I'm after
13:04:45 <haskellbridge> <Morj> HasCallStack is location only
13:04:45 <tomsmeding> but yeah the cost-centre annotations for execution time profiling are very nice for error reporting too
13:04:57 <tomsmeding> people realised that and made it work :p
13:05:17 <tomsmeding> in a strict language this is all moot because you have a normal call stack to work from
13:06:15 <tomsmeding> Morj: and HasCallStack is also used for error reports
13:06:36 <tomsmeding> so if you have HasCallStack _and_ profiling, you may get two backtraces for every printed exception :p
13:07:05 <tomsmeding> and those are not necessarily the same
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13:08:10 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I think i misspoke, by annotations way above i meant compiler annotations inserted by profiling flags, not HasCallStack inserted by hand
13:08:25 <tomsmeding> yeah I got that, sorry
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13:08:50 <tomsmeding> the terminology is a little ambiguous around this topic
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13:15:04 <tomsmeding> oh and it's also possible to manually add cost-centre annotations with CCS pragmas
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15:55:50 <haskellbridge> <sm> bwe: 100%, removing such partial code from your program is the best when possible
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16:05:58 <__monty__> But the all the warnings about head and tail et al. are so noisy : (
16:07:22 <haskellbridge> <sm> for this reason ? Suppress them if you must
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17:22:04 <EvanR> unless the objective is to crash your program in a potentially hard to explain way
17:22:46 <EvanR> every use of tail or last etc has to come with a possibly invisible proof that the list isn't empty
17:23:08 <EvanR> which is often not that hard to come up with, it's just that it's invisible
17:23:57 <EvanR> in your case control F for last and check for proof
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17:30:16 <__monty__> Sometimes I don't have proof but there's also absence of proof of the contrary.
17:31:27 <EvanR> ain't that something
17:32:01 <EvanR> murphy's law corrolary, if you don't have the proof then it will crash
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17:34:28 <__monty__> I don't mind spending time on cases that aren't actually partial but there's lots of cases that are.
17:35:41 <tomsmeding> intentionally partial, you mean?
17:36:19 <EvanR> this is all avoided if you can structure it so the compiler checks all the cases for you
17:36:26 <__monty__> What I really mean is that the lists often end up never being empty where I call head.
17:36:48 <EvanR> yeah ideally you can prove it
17:36:56 <tomsmeding> doesn't that amount to an (unstated) proof that it isn't actually partial
17:37:04 <tomsmeding> i.e. the opposite of what you're saying :p
17:37:36 <EvanR> implicitly at some point dealing with non empty lists and so the restriction of head on that domain is total
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17:40:25 <__monty__> tomsmeding: Does it? I'm pretty sure I said I don't have proof of either case (yet). The yet falling into place when it errors.
17:41:19 <EvanR> crashing is empirical proof it's partial
17:41:43 <tomsmeding> __monty__: "the lists often end up never being empty where I call head" -- based on what?
17:42:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> If you don't want to remove partial code from your program yet, I would say at least handle the unexpected case with an error message admitting programmer error and naming the function
17:43:04 <haskellbridge> <sm> (and package)
17:43:20 <EvanR> [] -> error "I've been bad. So very very bad. __FILE__ __LINE__"
17:43:41 <tomsmeding> if this is to be public library code, yes
17:45:00 <haskellbridge> <sm> I would say in your own private code too, you'll thank yourself later
17:45:28 <haskellbridge> <sm> except throwaway stuff, fine
17:45:29 <__monty__> tomsmeding: Based on experience. I don't tend to go around willy nilly asking for heads to be chopped off.
17:45:39 <geekosaur> I have one place where I use `head` and I know it'll always be nonempty, but the library code it's coming from doesn't yet use `NonEmpty` to prove it
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17:45:52 <EvanR> I ask for heads to show their papers please
17:46:05 <geekosaur> (were the list to be emoty, the library would refuse to start up and therefore my code won't be run)
17:46:13 <geekosaur> *empty
17:46:33 <__monty__> But that's what `head` should do for me, sm!
17:46:55 <EvanR> it can't really
17:47:13 <tomsmeding> yes it can and it does because it takes HasCallStack
17:47:16 <haskellbridge> <sm> it would be nice if that was automatic, yes. (Except, you don't always want production code leaking such details)
17:47:16 <EvanR> unless you change the type signature to have a call stack constrain---
17:47:17 <__monty__> And that's a wart, IMO.
17:47:23 <EvanR> :t head
17:47:24 <lambdabot> [a] -> a
17:47:27 <tomsmeding> % :t head
17:47:27 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: warning: [GHC-63394] [-Wx-partial] ; In the use of ‘head’ ; (imported from Prelude, but defined in GHC.Internal.List): ; "This is a partial function, it throws an err...
17:47:33 <tomsmeding> ...
17:47:35 <tomsmeding> %% :t head
17:47:35 <yahb2> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/xLob5lz5
17:50:15 <EvanR> head :: GHC.Internal.Stack.Types.HasCallStack => [a] -> a
17:50:21 <EvanR> sweet
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17:50:44 <tomsmeding> that does beg the question why bwe got "*** Exception: Prelude.last: empty list" without anything else
17:50:49 <tomsmeding> % :t last
17:50:49 <yahb2> last :: GHC.Internal.Stack.Types.HasCallStack => [a] -> a
17:50:56 <tomsmeding> % last []
17:50:56 <yahb2> *** Exception: Prelude.last: empty list ; ; HasCallStack backtrace: ; error, called at libraries/ghc-internal/src/GHC/Internal/List.hs:2036:3 in ghc-internal:GHC.Internal.List ; errorEmptyList...
17:51:28 <tomsmeding> or maybe they did but just didn't find that callstack helpful enough, which is fair enough :p
17:51:40 <__monty__> So it already shows where the naughty instance is? And we're all just fantasizing that it's hard to pinpoint still?
17:51:49 <haskellbridge> <sm> tomsmeding I think monty was wishing that it would report where the bad partial code is (package, module, line number etc.)
17:51:55 <tomsmeding> __monty__: it shows where the naughty instance is, but not how the program got there
17:52:12 <tomsmeding> and if the instance is in some kind of often-utility function, sometimes that still tells you very little
17:52:19 <haskellbridge> <sm> such information is famously elusive in GHC's various back/stack traces
17:52:22 <__monty__> That's good enough for me, so I'm happier now than I was 20 minutes ago.
17:52:30 <tomsmeding> %% last []
17:52:31 <yahb2> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dg8lKLH8
17:52:33 <EvanR> control F also works
17:52:35 <__monty__> Also makes me more upset about the impartial warnings by default though.
17:52:39 <EvanR> assuming you didn't space heads
17:52:41 <EvanR> spam
17:52:44 <tomsmeding> sm: "last, called at <interactive>:79:1 in interactive:Ghci17"
17:53:00 <int-e> tomsmeding: Once upon a time, I had an empty list. It didn't last.
17:53:06 <tomsmeding> (:
17:53:22 <tomsmeding> EvanR: it doesn't if you have multiple uses of the function
17:53:42 <EvanR> I guess 2 is spam enough
17:53:56 <tomsmeding> for debugging, yes
17:53:59 <EvanR> if you have 2 heads, reconsider your ways
17:54:15 <tomsmeding> chasing false trails in debugging is a demotivating waste of time :p
17:54:16 <haskellbridge> <sm> tomsmeding: that one was good yes
17:54:58 <EvanR> control F and witnessing the proof for every result found would also work
17:55:02 <haskellbridge> <sm> in a production codebase it's much less likely (because of needing an unbroken chain of HasCallStack I guess)
17:55:25 <tomsmeding> well that's what I was saying: it shows you where the naughty instance is, but not how the program got there
17:55:39 <tomsmeding> which is sometimes very unhelpful
17:55:51 <tomsmeding> (I speak from experience)
17:56:13 <tomsmeding> the new automatic profiling backtraces are nice, though
17:56:24 <tomsmeding> requies you to rebuild the world, but then you do get better backtraces
17:56:31 <tomsmeding> lexical ones, even
17:56:42 <tomsmeding> or wait is that true?
17:56:52 <tomsmeding> no they're probably not lexical, so I lied to bwe
17:56:54 <tomsmeding> anyhow
17:56:54 <EvanR> the backtrack workflow in other languages is so powerful that dynamic language programmers write 100s of partial functions per file
17:57:03 <EvanR> and don't care
17:57:12 <__monty__> int-e: That's poetry.
17:57:41 <tomsmeding> the output of a model checker (which is considered "formal methods") on a counter example is, guess what, a backtrace
17:57:47 <tomsmeding> *counterexample
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20:06:10 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Anyone in this chat going to the eurorust conference tomorrow?
20:06:44 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I know it's not the right language, but still
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20:21:40 <monochrom> In type applications, the syntax "[] @ Int" is rejected, it has to be "[] @Int". :(
20:22:36 <monochrom> My real use case is Proxy @MyType
20:22:39 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I think it's a good thing, to disambiguate from a user-defined type operator
20:23:31 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Same for # in names, overloaded labels and an operator by itself
20:23:53 <haskellbridge> <Morj> That there is an overload may be a bad thing, but it can't be changed already, so
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21:15:36 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur> They did at least make it consistent in 9.x
21:16:41 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur> Before that #, !, @, etc. each had its own rules
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All times are in UTC on 2025-10-08.