Logs on 2025-10-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:14:11 | <yin> | what's this type tetria I hear about? |
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| 02:14:22 | <yin> | tetris |
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| 03:23:56 | <fgidim> | if you have some functions you want to change the type signatures of, you can have the compiler help you out |
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| 05:43:25 | <dminuoso> | yin: So we have an extension called RankNTypes that gives you multiple levels of GHC to beat (rank 1, rank 2, etc..)? Upon reaching rank N there is an endboss - a mysterious dark wizard named Skolem. Be careful not to zonk his type minions too early, or you will not defeat him. One done you achieve eternal unification and make it onto a global leaderboard. |
| 05:44:23 | <dminuoso> | Maybe a Haskell-themed roguelike wouldn't be the worst of ideas. |
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| 06:06:31 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: ascension message: "You reach immutability" |
| 06:06:47 | <dminuoso> | Not bad. |
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| 07:11:44 | × | annamalai quits (~annamalai@2409:4042:4cb7:e799::9e8a:bd0a) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 07:12:04 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 07:18:53 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 07:23:58 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
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| 08:15:41 | × | Googulator quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 08:44:22 | × | Googulator quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 08:44:38 | → | Googulator joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 09:15:38 | → | Googulator42 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 09:20:53 | → | YawnyYak joins (~YawnyYak@185.209.196.135) |
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| 11:00:02 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 11:00:04 | × | caconym747879 quits (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 11:00:15 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 11:00:55 | → | __monty__ joins (~toonn@user/toonn) |
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| 11:04:24 | × | sord937 quits (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 11:04:43 | → | sord937 joins (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) |
| 11:12:14 | × | trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 11:12:28 | → | trickard_ joins (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 11:25:43 | → | Googulator20 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 11:25:43 | × | Googulator42 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 11:30:21 | <yin> | I got excited but understood nothing |
| 11:35:31 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 11:35:59 | → | Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 11:37:36 | → | CiaoSen joins (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) |
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| 11:46:10 | → | chiselfuse joins (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) |
| 11:54:53 | × | divlamir quits (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 11:55:18 | → | divlamir joins (~divlamir@user/divlamir) |
| 12:00:46 | → | Googulator34 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 12:00:46 | × | Googulator20 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 12:04:12 | × | fp quits (~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::10c5) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 12:05:48 | → | fp joins (~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-140-195.open.aalto.fi) |
| 12:06:48 | × | arandombit quits (~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 12:07:04 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 12:07:39 | → | arandombit joins (~arandombi@user/arandombit) |
| 12:10:25 | × | chromoblob quits (~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 12:18:47 | <tomsmeding> | I think that was the intent |
| 12:18:58 | × | bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "") |
| 12:19:00 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@77.242.116.146) |
| 12:25:49 | × | Googulator34 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 12:25:52 | → | Googulator8 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 12:28:08 | → | chromoblob joins (~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) |
| 12:28:32 | → | kuribas joins (~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) |
| 12:28:38 | × | fp quits (~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-140-195.open.aalto.fi) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 12:33:58 | Googulator8 | is now known as Googulator |
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| 12:45:40 | → | Googulator joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 13:02:23 | → | rekahsoft joins (~rekahsoft@70.51.99.245) |
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| 13:28:05 | → | markasoftware joins (~quassel@107.161.26.124) |
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| 14:30:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Guys can you imagine I met Vitaly Bragilevsky at a conf today |
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| 14:42:40 | [exa] | googles vitaly bragilevsky |
| 14:43:32 | <[exa]> | google returns no conclusion |
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| 14:48:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> The author of «haskell in depth» book |
| 14:48:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> More well known for appearing on normie shows and podcasts and advocating for mathematical thinking and functional programming |
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| 15:03:32 | <Hecate> | nice, Morj |
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| 17:15:34 | <dminuoso> | yin: Type tetris is not a well defined term, but usually refers to some act where you shuffle/turn things until they type check, much like you would rotate pieces in tetris until they fit. |
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| 17:16:24 | <dminuoso> | Some people use them in different cases, but they all usually somehow revolve around making things fit to please the type checker, sometimes (but not always) without even knowing why or how it worked. |
| 17:16:55 | <dminuoso> | In some silly sense programming can be a kind of computer game in this way. |
| 17:17:07 | <dminuoso> | You win once your program type checks. |
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| 17:19:06 | <EvanR> | tetris is too hard |
| 17:19:13 | <EvanR> | much prefer making types fit |
| 17:19:46 | <EvanR> | a master of tetris might feel like he's playing type theory |
| 17:20:29 | <dminuoso> | I think it's most notable when you're relatively early in the haskell career (or early into stepping into more complicatedly typed libraries), where you dont really understand what you're doing, but sometimes if it type checks, its more likely to be correct than not. |
| 17:20:42 | <APic> | But the epic Alexei Paschitnow brought it to us in the 1984! |
| 17:22:23 | <EvanR> | I have noticed that in a complicated but well design library, just getting the types to check without knowing wtf you're doing "somehow works" |
| 17:23:16 | <EvanR> | 1984 corresponds to the development of martin-lof type theory |
| 17:23:23 | <EvanR> | coincidence? I think not |
| 17:23:30 | <dminuoso> | Personally I think it's an indicator of poor documentation or over complication, if the only way for you to interact is to randomly slap things together until they fit. |
| 17:24:06 | <EvanR> | for some highly algebraic systems, I do not envy anyone trying to use it or invent it without types |
| 17:24:13 | <dminuoso> | Imagine this is how you had to assemble anything, say a model car. |
| 17:24:29 | <EvanR> | which is why you see typeless system devolve into the dumbest common denominator "write the rest yourself" |
| 17:24:33 | <dminuoso> | Certainly good to waste ones time like puzzling, but I dont think people write Haskell to waste time. |
| 17:25:10 | <EvanR> | it really wins when the only sensible ways to combine things is the algebraically correct way |
| 17:25:24 | <EvanR> | without types, that's just hazardous |
| 17:25:30 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: It's good for robustness, but it shouldn't be the way we guide programmers to the conclusion. |
| 17:25:55 | <dminuoso> | Imagine Airbus had their engineers assemble helicopters this way. |
| 17:26:01 | <dminuoso> | "Slap things until they fit, it will be alright" |
| 17:26:04 | <EvanR> | whether any of this is actually good for programming might just reflect what we think programming even is |
| 17:26:15 | <dminuoso> | Even *if* it worked, it would be horrible in terms of efficiency. |
| 17:26:34 | <EvanR> | is it writing a random script to get some job done as fast as possible, or is it proving a theorem in a way that a computer could check it |
| 17:26:49 | <EvanR> | or many other scenarios |
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| 17:29:57 | <dminuoso> | Here's a fun set of interfaces: |
| 17:30:22 | <dminuoso> | f1 :: T r r -> T r' r; f2 :: ((a -> r) -> T r r) -> T r a |
| 17:30:59 | <dminuoso> | Now the type signatures pretty much tell you all there is to know. It's a terribly confusing API. |
| 17:32:23 | <dminuoso> | Now `T ~ Cont` of course. |
| 17:33:28 | <EvanR> | it doens't seem that confusing |
| 17:33:47 | <EvanR> | this mistakes one letter variable names with "intrinsically confusing" |
| 17:34:00 | <EvanR> | science and math works using them regardless |
| 17:34:22 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 17:34:22 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core says: <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded <mueval-core> lambdabot: stfu |
| 17:34:25 | <EvanR> | if someone doesn't know the subject matter then yeah they might be confused, personally |
| 17:34:28 | <shapr> | ow, burn |
| 17:34:55 | <tomsmeding> | lol shapr |
| 17:34:59 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: Dunno, I find the interface (and all of the resulting program structure) of delimited continuations pure confusion. |
| 17:35:02 | <shapr> | howdy tomsmeding, how's code? |
| 17:35:08 | <EvanR> | I can't argue with that |
| 17:35:26 | <shapr> | I've been playing with the TUI graph library granite, having fun recreating the graphs from Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows |
| 17:35:27 | <tomsmeding> | code is okay, phd thesis is also okay |
| 17:35:38 | <shapr> | oh nice, self education |
| 17:35:39 | <tomsmeding> | the latter will be handed in somewhere the coming few months |
| 17:35:44 | <shapr> | w00! what did you write about? |
| 17:35:49 | <tomsmeding> | automatic differentiation! |
| 17:35:53 | <[exa]> | oh cool |
| 17:36:07 | <shapr> | nice! any papers I can read? |
| 17:36:08 | tomsmeding | looks up granite |
| 17:36:22 | <shapr> | I'm doing this kind of thing: https://github.com/mchav/granite?tab=readme-ov-file#line-graph |
| 17:36:34 | <tomsmeding> | oh that thing, didn't that appear in the HWN at some point? |
| 17:36:41 | <tomsmeding> | yeah that's snazzy |
| 17:36:49 | <dminuoso> | Even with plain continuations with things like callCC it gets rather confusing. In C-world something like setjmp/longjmp is just far easier to conceptualize, and it feels easier when reading programs. |
| 17:37:03 | <shapr> | I dunno, I just found it last week or so |
| 17:37:06 | <dminuoso> | Just because you can express it with a function does not mean its the best of ideas. :-) |
| 17:37:24 | <[exa]> | granite was somewhat popular on discourse recently no? |
| 17:37:45 | <EvanR> | yes "everything is a function" is as dumb as "everything's an object" |
| 17:37:58 | <EvanR> | or everything is a set |
| 17:38:04 | <[exa]> | EvanR: ENTITY. |
| 17:38:05 | <dminuoso> | The "everything is an object" at least is introspectable easily. |
| 17:38:21 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: I'll do you a better one, here is an extremely-hot-off-the-press current draft of the entire bloody thing https://tomsmeding.com/vang/EZ5CNw/thesis-2025-10-09.pdf |
| 17:38:26 | <shapr> | w00! |
| 17:38:35 | <EvanR> | is it |
| 17:38:45 | <EvanR> | then introspect functions, which are objects, because everything is |
| 17:39:04 | <EvanR> | actually you can do this in idris, or at least you used to |
| 17:39:07 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: warning: it's long lol |
| 17:39:34 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: man that's LOONG |
| 17:39:38 | <shapr> | tomsmeding: I think you gotta `unset SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH` |
| 17:39:53 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: it is, send help |
| 17:39:57 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: hm? |
| 17:40:16 | <shapr> | mind you, my Dutch is terrible, is "geboren op 21 februari 1998" supposed to be the date you built the document? |
| 17:40:16 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: note that this is B5 paper size, not A4 |
| 17:40:25 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: "geboren" means "born" |
| 17:40:28 | <tomsmeding> | ;) |
| 17:40:34 | <shapr> | jaså, tack! |
| 17:40:37 | jgart | is now known as whereiseveryone |
| 17:40:38 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: you can't do the paperclip thesis? (you submit papers and write a <50pp commentary on the story behind) |
| 17:40:54 | <shapr> | maybe my Dutch will improve next year, it's my hope to end up in that country. |
| 17:41:08 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: it was an option, but neiter me nor my supervisors preferred that |
| 17:41:21 | <tomsmeding> | if this was to be an actual consistent book there'd be a whole lot more to be done |
| 17:41:41 | <tomsmeding> | as it is there's some content duplication between two papers, some stuff that doesn't really belong, etc. |
| 17:41:46 | <tomsmeding> | it's _mostly_ consistent |
| 17:41:48 | <[exa]> | like, this is insane amount of work |
| 17:42:04 | <tomsmeding> | ch. 3, 4 and 6 are copy-pasta from already-written publications though |
| 17:42:11 | <[exa]> | you might want to make a self-standing book out of that |
| 17:42:12 | <tomsmeding> | ch. 1, 2, 5, 8 are new |
| 17:42:25 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: ooh what are you going to do here |
| 17:42:49 | <shapr> | escape the USA, mostly |
| 17:42:59 | <shapr> | continue being self employed, maybe join a hackerspace? |
| 17:43:02 | <tomsmeding> | oh, to people here wanting to learn about automatic differentiation: I recommend section 2.2 in my background |
| 17:43:17 | <tomsmeding> | I wrote it as an intro to AD for functional programmers, and I have one good review already |
| 17:43:24 | <shapr> | that sounds exciting |
| 17:43:37 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: that makes sense |
| 17:44:04 | <tomsmeding> | I'm looking for postdocs and it's possible that I'll be leaving the country, but we'll see that after I submit :p |
| 17:44:12 | <tomsmeding> | in any case, let me know if you do end up here |
| 17:44:22 | <tomsmeding> | it's not a very big country |
| 17:44:48 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: re self-standing book: what I wrote above lol |
| 17:45:06 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure I want to spend the effort to make this an actual consistent book |
| 17:45:15 | <tomsmeding> | enough time went into those papers and the rest already |
| 17:45:25 | <[exa]> | ah okay :D |
| 17:45:34 | <shapr> | put up the source and solicit improvements? or just go on to the next publication? |
| 17:46:06 | <tomsmeding> | the latter in case I continue in academia, neither if I end up outside academia, I guess? |
| 17:46:20 | <tomsmeding> | would you like the source to be up? |
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| 17:46:53 | <tomsmeding> | all the code is public; do people really want a bunch of LaTeX too? |
| 17:46:57 | <shapr> | hm, I dunno if I'll have time to put up any fixes |
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| 17:47:12 | <shapr> | I'm a big fan of LaTeX, but that's me |
| 17:47:40 | <tomsmeding> | I guess you can look at my beautiful Ti kZ code then |
| 17:47:44 | <shapr> | yay! |
| 17:47:50 | <shapr> | I haven't learned TikZ yet |
| 17:48:16 | <tomsmeding> | Fig. 2.4 on page 13 actually uses a loop inside Ti kZ |
| 17:49:46 | <shapr> | re the unset comment from earlier, I have to do that to get today's date in my invoices in NixOS |
| 17:50:19 | <tomsmeding> | oh _right_ nix |
| 17:50:23 | <tomsmeding> | I don't use nix |
| 17:50:28 | <shapr> | fair enough |
| 17:50:32 | <tomsmeding> | but yeah makes sense |
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| 17:53:57 | <shapr> | I'm guessing EVM is not ethereum virtual machine? |
| 17:54:14 | <tomsmeding> | lol no |
| 17:54:17 | <tomsmeding> | Environment Vector Monad |
| 17:54:26 | <shapr> | Oh, I got my brain eaten by monoidal hashing last week |
| 17:54:27 | <tomsmeding> | it's an accumulation state monad |
| 17:54:32 | <shapr> | ah thanks |
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| 17:55:31 | <tomsmeding> | oh you were looking at the ToC I guess |
| 17:55:57 | <shapr> | and I jumped to the EVM code, didn't look like ethereum |
| 17:56:11 | <shapr> | It's so nice to be able to click the table of contents and jump to that location |
| 17:56:12 | <tomsmeding> | I expect it didn't, no |
| 17:56:15 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 17:58:37 | <tomsmeding> | the little TODOs in the margin are also kind of cute |
| 17:58:51 | <shapr> | yeah, got several smiles from them |
| 17:59:00 | <tomsmeding> | I switched to that halfway through the process or so, the nice thing is that they don't influence the layout of the text |
| 17:59:18 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: which ones made you smile? |
| 17:59:53 | <tomsmeding> | the boo part is that those margin notes (\marginpar) don't work in footnotes |
| 18:00:10 | <tomsmeding> | spawning a float from inside a float-like thing is apparently too floaty for TeX |
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| 18:06:15 | <shapr> | tomsmeding: "whatever fash CHAD ends up achieving" was the first smile |
| 18:06:29 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
| 18:06:39 | <tomsmeding> | that's in-progress work that may or may not partially end up in this thing |
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| 18:07:05 | <tomsmeding> | more fun TeX shenanigans: the "line numbers" in the big display math on page 215 |
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| 19:24:41 | <Anarchos> | how can i install ghc-7.10.3 on a recent ubuntu ? |
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| 19:31:29 | <fgidim> | i am doing something silly. a lot of my functions support Integral, but i want to go a little more general and add Fractional support if possible. can't resist the decimal point for some reason |
| 19:33:58 | <EvanR> | agreed |
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| 19:34:27 | <tomsmeding> | Anarchos: I assume you've tried ghcup and it didn't work? |
| 19:34:59 | <Anarchos> | it failed on libtinfo.so.5 |
| 19:35:17 | <tomsmeding> | you may be able to compile a ghc 7.10.3 from scratch |
| 19:35:48 | <tomsmeding> | you might try `ghcup compile ghc -v 7.10.3`, but no guarantees |
| 19:36:22 | <tomsmeding> | might need an older ghc to compile that; 8.4.4 still installs fine on ubuntu, if I remember correctly |
| 19:36:43 | <tomsmeding> | (that would then be `ghcup compile ghc -v 7.10.3 -b 8.4.4`; mind you, I've tried none of this) |
| 19:37:02 | <Anarchos> | tomsmeding i need 7.10.3 to bootstrap cabal with the same version available on my target OS |
| 19:38:18 | <tomsmeding> | I suggest you try `ghcup install ghc 8.4.4; ghcup compile ghc -v 7.10.3 -b 8.4.4` |
| 19:39:53 | <Anarchos> | ok thanks |
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| 20:23:20 | <geekosaur> | yeh, recent ubuntu (24.04 and later) doesn't hve back-compat packages for old terminfo any more |
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| 20:24:01 | <geekosaur> | cabal has to use 22.04 for validate so older ghc versions in our support window will work |
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| 23:18:29 | × | ttybitnik quits (~ttybitnik@user/wolper) (Quit: Fading out...) |
| 23:19:27 | → | Inline joins (~inline@2a02:8071:57a1:1260:905b:7310:2387:b6f5) |
| 23:20:39 | → | Googulator66 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 23:21:08 | × | Googulator84 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 23:22:42 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:26:19 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) |
| 23:26:55 | × | igemnace quits (~igemnace@user/igemnace) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0+deb2build3 - https://znc.in) |
| 23:27:49 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 23:27:55 | → | inline_ joins (~inline@ip-178-202-059-161.um47.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 23:28:55 | → | gustrb joins (~gustrb@191.243.134.87) |
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| 23:31:34 | × | Inline quits (~inline@2a02:8071:57a1:1260:905b:7310:2387:b6f5) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 23:33:10 | inline_ | is now known as Inline |
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| 23:38:29 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
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| 23:39:00 | → | lisbeths joins (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 23:43:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 23:43:28 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-187-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:45:37 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-148-214.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:45:51 | × | dyno quits (dyno@user/dyno) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 23:54:16 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:54:21 | × | Inline quits (~inline@ip-178-202-059-161.um47.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 23:55:35 | → | Googulator5 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 23:55:39 | × | Googulator66 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-5967-6f2a-1e2d-f05a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 23:59:04 | → | pavonia joins (~user@user/siracusa) |
| 23:59:17 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-10-09.