Logs on 2025-10-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:27:02 | <EvanR> | mauke, 😱 |
| 04:27:10 | <EvanR> | ok |
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| 07:51:25 | <dminuoso> | L29Ah: I have to ask. "The openssl trainwreck" compared to self-rolled cryptographic primitives in crypton? |
| 07:55:25 | <dminuoso> | Is crypton fully implemented with all kinds of side-channel attacks in mind? Timing analysis, cache poisining attacks, power/EM attacks, speculative execution analysis, fault injection, entropy failure, misuse of CRT, missing modular invertibility checks, non-constant-time scalar multiplications within primitives, deterministic blinding |
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| 07:55:44 | <dminuoso> | Honestly, the list of all the various things you can screw up when doing cryptographic primitives is so long |
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| 07:56:50 | <dminuoso> | But given that crypton is not written in just primops but highlevel haskell, it means that any guarantee that you might think you get after you audit the code depends on precisely a) the GHC version chosen and b) the compiler flags. |
| 07:57:07 | <dminuoso> | And that's assuming a full cryptographic audit even occured. |
| 08:00:28 | <dminuoso> | crypton just is not something you should use if you want to rely on secure and robust cryptography. |
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| 08:08:34 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: to be fair, while that holds for Haskell, that holds for C too |
| 08:09:11 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Yes, and openssl has loads of code paths with these attacks in mind and defenses. |
| 08:10:11 | <tomsmeding> | I was thinking of the timing attacks in your list -- compilers normalloy do stuff with branches that may compromise attempts to write e.g. branchless code |
| 08:10:17 | <tomsmeding> | and even C compilers can do that |
| 08:10:35 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Much of the timing attacks require very explicit consideration and approaches. |
| 08:10:42 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not saying that openssl has not accounted for this somehow |
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| 08:15:52 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: For starters openssl handwires various primitives in assembly not just for performance but also to thwart compiler optimizations. https://github.com/openssl/openssl/tree/master/crypto/bn/asm |
| 08:16:55 | <tomsmeding> | right -- I was thinking you need something like that |
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| 08:18:15 | <tomsmeding> | interesting that these are perl scripts |
| 08:19:43 | <tomsmeding> | it seems everyone invents their own assembly macro language; with gmp using m4 if I remember correctly |
| 08:20:03 | <fgidim> | woah, using assembly to get around compiling wrong code is hardcore. |
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| 08:20:26 | <tomsmeding> | it _is_ reliable -- the assembler is not really going to introduce branches when you aren't looking |
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| 08:21:05 | <tomsmeding> | also, it's not just for safety, it's also for performance -- see the comment at the top of e.g. https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/bn/asm/x86-mont.pl#L27-L28 |
| 08:21:52 | <tomsmeding> | oh and there's even also a bunch of C inline assembly! https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/bn/asm/x86_64-gcc.c |
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| 08:26:18 | <fgidim> | dang, twice as fast? that is something |
| 08:26:30 | <__monty__> | Is it also in part to avoid timing side channels? |
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| 08:27:49 | <tomsmeding> | yes -- the "compiler optimisations" that dminuoso mentioned are mostly ones that inadvertently introduce timing side channels, I think |
| 08:29:07 | <mauke> | https://cr.yp.to/talks/2025.10.07/slides-djb-20251007-pickthree-4x3.pdf |
| 08:29:28 | <dminuoso> | fgidim: well "wrong code" depends on how you look at it. Generally the semantics of programming languages have nothing to say about performance, and often they do the opposite: they leave holes for compilers to exploit. |
| 08:29:40 | <dminuoso> | For most programs you them to execute as fast as possible. |
| 08:29:51 | <dminuoso> | But this goes very much against what you'd want in cryptography. |
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| 08:30:04 | <dminuoso> | You want cryptographic primitives to go as fast as you *require*. |
| 08:30:21 | <dminuoso> | Consider the most naive of cases: comparing two strings for equality. |
| 08:30:48 | <dminuoso> | A naive "character by character with shortcircuit" is very easily exploitable for timing analysis. |
| 08:32:18 | <dminuoso> | mauke's slike are really good :) |
| 08:32:27 | <dminuoso> | Or well, Bernstein's. |
| 08:34:38 | <tomsmeding> | that list on slide 6 is funny |
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| 08:41:24 | <tomsmeding> | okay yeah it's a good slide deck |
| 08:41:41 | <tomsmeding> | a lot of text for a talk, but that only makes it more readable after-the-fact :) |
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| 09:00:07 | <endokqr> | This may be the wrong place to ask but I'll try anyway. I have a Haskell development shell set up with Nix, where I have managed to install the profiling-enabled versions of the libraries I depend on. However, when I try to cabal build an executable with profiling enabled, I still get errors relating to missing .p_dyn_hi files for a few libraries. Some Google searches indicate that GHC shouldn't |
| 09:00:10 | <endokqr> | be dynamically linking when running with profiling and that the error is a red herring. However, even if I add -static to ghc-flags in the Cabal file, I still get the same error. Am I misunderstanding something? |
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| 09:02:49 | <dminuoso> | Besides, much of crypton(ites) is based on a single person who has abandoned the project. |
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| 09:03:50 | <dminuoso> | While Kazu Yamamoto has picked up the maintainer flag, there arent really any crypto folks around to actively work on this project |
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| 09:05:30 | <dminuoso> | The state of crypton right now is, if you supplied a PR that satisfied the tests it would likely get accepted. |
| 09:06:00 | <dminuoso> | It's dead trivial to inject malicious backdoors of any kind right now. |
| 09:06:43 | <dminuoso> | This isn't critique on behalf of Kazu Yamamoto, mind you. He's just trying to keep it alive because a fair chunk of hackage depends on crypto(nite) |
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| 10:06:42 | <jackdk> | The main guy who was working on the botan bindings has come back from hiatus, we should fund him to do another round of work |
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| 10:09:52 | <Hecate> | jackdk: I just read your blog post on Handles and free applicatives, well-written and well-done, thank you. |
| 10:10:42 | <Hecate> | jackdk: btw, don't hesitate to open discussion threads on the Effectful repo if you ever have some "exotic" use-cases / needs at Bellroy, we'd be happy to help you figure things out (and add stuff to make things easier) |
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| 10:13:21 | <jackdk> | Hecate: I'm glad you liked it. I personally really like effectful as I think it's closest to the sweet spot of type safety, performance, support for higher-order stuff, and zany type system features, but we'll see whether it's something we end up adopting at work. We try to keep an upper bound on the sort of Haskell that we write, and manual handles are an easier sell at this stage. |
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| 10:14:09 | <jackdk> | (Hecate is referring to https://discourse.haskell.org/t/free-applicatives-the-handle-pattern-and-remote-systems/13110 . I'll probably send it to the other aggregators in the morning because I like to give d.h.o a head start) |
| 10:15:40 | <Franciman> | jackdk: do you use GADTs in your lib? |
| 10:16:26 | <jackdk> | Franciman: yeah OneQuery is a GADT, is that what you meant? |
| 10:16:42 | <Franciman> | can you do without GADTs? |
| 10:16:56 | <Hecate> | jackdk: my own question would be: Do you use GADTSyntax or do you need the local existential proofs? |
| 10:18:49 | <jackdk> | Franciman, Hecate: for internal reasons which might have been shaved off too much when writing that post, we do need to carry around the internal `FromJSON x` dictionary. |
| 10:19:50 | <Hecate> | jackdk: got it ;) |
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| 10:59:46 | <Franciman> | thanks jackdk |
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| 15:42:05 | <dcpagan> | Is there a generic failure monad that fails with a given exception type? |
| 15:42:38 | <dcpagan> | A generic failure monad class, I mean. |
| 15:42:49 | <dcpagan> | I want to fail with something other than a string. |
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| 15:45:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> dcpagan https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.3.1/docs/Control-Monad-Except.html#t:MonadError ? |
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| 15:46:26 | <dcpagan> | Oh, that works. |
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| 23:50:01 | <dcpagan> | Codensity is missing a MonadError instance. |
| 23:50:12 | <dcpagan> | I had to roll one up with this: "catchError m k = lift $ catchError (lowerCodensity m) (lowerCodensity . k)" |
| 23:51:36 | <dcpagan> | Also, "shift" is defined as "shift f = Codensity (lowerCodensity . f)". I should look more into delimited continuations and their applications in exception-handling. |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-10-13.