Logs on 2025-10-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:36:22 | <Square> | I had a unpleasant behavior of nix flakes + cabal that might not be fixable or trivial. 1) I made some changes in flake A. 2) started a nix dev shell in B that depnds on A. 3) Run B using `cabal run` wo seeing the changes made to A. |
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| 02:37:25 | <Square> | Turns out cabal wasn't detecting changes in A and utilized old build results. |
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| 06:28:58 | <dminuoso> | @tell Square what kind of changes did you make to that flake? |
| 06:28:58 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 06:54:25 | <_________> | @pl \w -> length . filter (==w) . words |
| 06:54:26 | <lambdabot> | (length .) . (. words) . filter . (==) |
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| 07:01:40 | <fgidim> | huh, i guess lambdabot really does turn functions tacit. cool |
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| 08:59:17 | <mreh> | is it not possible to mix ApplicativeDo syntax in with normal do syntax or something? |
| 09:00:48 | <mreh> | do { x <- foo; y <- (runA $ do { z <- bar; w <- baz; return (f z w) }); return y } -- I've got this kind of situation going on. |
| 09:02:17 | <mreh> | actually, I've got something like `bar x` going on... so many that precludes ApplicativeDo |
| 09:05:25 | <tomsmeding> | mreh: if it's `bar x`, how would you want that to be converted to applicative syntax? |
| 09:05:50 | <mreh> | tomsmeding: I guess it can't, right? |
| 09:06:06 | <mreh> | silly me |
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| 09:14:19 | <tomsmeding> | not saying that ApplicativeDo is perfect, but I think in this case it's correct |
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| 10:46:44 | <titusg> | how can I make cabal repl load the modules from my project, without having to do it with :m +? |
| 10:50:40 | <[exa]> | titusg: as in, you'd want it to do the :m +... for you automatically? |
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| 10:50:58 | <[exa]> | there was a shortcut for that somewhere |
| 10:52:03 | <titusg> | [exa]: yes |
| 10:53:16 | <titusg> | It has always bugged me that it isn't default behaviour. Not sure why else you'd be starting cabal repl. |
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| 11:01:59 | <[exa]> | titusg: I'm usually doing it to try some stuff with the package environment, not necessarily the modules |
| 11:02:19 | <[exa]> | (also the modules may conflict in the namespace) |
| 11:02:39 | <[exa]> | anyway there's a way to do that iirc, I saw it somewhere |
| 11:03:41 | <[exa]> | maybe something like this? https://discourse.haskell.org/t/define-custom-command-for-a-cabal-repl-session/12088/2 |
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| 11:04:09 | <titusg> | fair enough. I'm usually just wanting to play around with the code I'm working on... |
| 11:05:25 | <titusg> | thx for finding that, I'll have a play :) |
| 11:06:37 | <[exa]> | yeah I never used it but looks like you can just stuff custom commands to a local .ghci |
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| 11:14:01 | <tomsmeding> | titusg: cabal repl loads the first module listed in the cabal file for that component |
| 11:14:48 | <tomsmeding> | also, in case it's helpful: try `:set prompt "%s> "` to always show what modules are currently in scope |
| 11:15:00 | <tomsmeding> | in GHC 9.0 the default changed away from that and I hate it |
| 11:15:26 | <tomsmeding> | also on :r it re-adds that first-module-in-the-component back into the scope list |
| 11:16:13 | <tomsmeding> | (I actually have `:set prompt "\ESC[1m\STX%s>\ESC[0m\STX "` to make the prompt more visible, too) |
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| 11:24:31 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Regarding ApplicativeDo, Im not sure how `bar x` would be an issue - function application by itself is not forbidden inside ApplicativeDo. |
| 11:24:47 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: well the x is bound in the outer do |
| 11:24:52 | <dminuoso> | So? |
| 11:25:00 | <tomsmeding> | ... fair point |
| 11:25:18 | <tomsmeding> | (\x -> ...) <$> foo |
| 11:25:48 | <tomsmeding> | if the 'return y' also referenced x, then we'd be in trouble |
| 11:25:56 | <tomsmeding> | I think? |
| 11:26:03 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 11:26:05 | <dminuoso> | Even then, I dont see why |
| 11:26:31 | <dminuoso> | I mean it may be that there is a very naive heuristic that just looks at x and sees that its bound in do-notation. |
| 11:26:47 | <dminuoso> | But because its the outer do-notation, as far as the inner do-notation is concerned is just some variable. |
| 11:27:04 | <tomsmeding> | do { x <- foo; y <- f x; return (g x y) } |
| 11:27:10 | <tomsmeding> | how would you write that in applicative combinators? |
| 11:27:26 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: That's not related. |
| 11:27:35 | <dminuoso> | Lets ignore the outer do notation for a second. |
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| 11:27:51 | <tomsmeding> | I was assuming that the ApplicativeDo is supposed to apply to the outer do |
| 11:28:13 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Given the mention of runA I think they wanted it in the inner one. |
| 11:28:17 | <tomsmeding> | _right_ |
| 11:28:23 | <tomsmeding> | okay that's weird |
| 11:28:46 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: But perfectly in line with how frequently ApplicativeDo fails. Not that it should. |
| 11:29:26 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes I wonder whether a `doA` with an explicit error instead of silent monad degradation would have been better. |
| 11:30:03 | <tomsmeding> | works for me though |
| 11:30:03 | <dminuoso> | An example like this should work more easily |
| 11:30:19 | <tomsmeding> | https://play.haskell.org/saved/9myEpOls |
| 11:30:21 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Who knows, I've experienced so many ApplicativeDo -> Monad degradations in the past. |
| 11:30:39 | <tomsmeding> | I never use ApplicativeDo |
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| 11:31:08 | <dminuoso> | I usually use it for optparse-applicative. |
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| 11:34:20 | <dminuoso> | (And I still have optparse-selective on my todo stack) |
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| 11:37:12 | <tomsmeding> | ah right, makes sense |
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| 11:58:23 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: re optparse-selective, that would be a rewrite of optparse? |
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| 11:58:51 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: (perhaps related: https://github.com/pcapriotti/optparse-applicative/pull/505 ) |
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| 12:21:08 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: Yes, some years ago I started a huge rewrite for no practical reason other than idealism. |
| 12:21:21 | <dminuoso> | But because it was just idealism there was no inherent need that kept me going. |
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| 12:42:24 | <kuribas`> | I use applicativeDo for records. |
| 12:42:45 | <kuribas`> | Much more readable and robust than positional. |
| 12:43:20 | <kuribas`> | do foo <- fooExpr; bar <- barExpr; ... ; pure (MyRecord {..}) |
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| 15:15:19 | <dminuoso> | kuribas`: You can use let-in for that usecase though, however. |
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| 15:28:53 | <mauke> | dminuoso: how so? |
| 15:29:10 | <ski> | not really |
| 15:31:01 | <dminuoso> | % let f1 = "foo"; f2 = 2; in Foo{..} |
| 15:31:01 | <yahb2> | Foo {f1 = "foo", f2 = 2} |
| 15:31:37 | <ski> | that doesn't help when you want to perform actions to generate the values of the fields, though |
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| 15:32:01 | <dminuoso> | Sure, but then you're no longer picking ApplicativeDo for just RecordWildcards, but for whatever it is that you're doing. |
| 15:32:25 | <ski> | yes |
| 15:32:30 | <ski> | [> MyRecord { foo = [<fooExpr>],bar = [<barExpr>] } <] -- my "(local) reflective effect syntax" |
| 15:32:42 | <int-e> | I think the "positional" variant would be Foo <$> makeF1 <*> makeF2 |
| 15:32:49 | <ski> | yes |
| 15:32:55 | <dminuoso> | Ah I see what you're getting at. |
| 15:34:00 | <dminuoso> | I've tried to use it as well because its less brittle than positional, but bitten over and over again with slightly nuanced versions and then ApplicativeDo would just break apart. :( |
| 15:34:14 | <dminuoso> | I really want a doA. |
| 15:34:40 | <ski> | i should try working a bit more on my TH implementation of my syntax |
| 15:35:01 | <int-e> | . o O ( ado ) |
| 15:35:27 | <dminuoso> | int-e: Something tells me that ado has more uses in hackage than doA. :-) |
| 15:35:48 | <ski> | `ado' <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/applicative-quoters-0.1.0.8/docs/Control-Applicative-QQ-ADo.html> |
| 15:35:50 | <dminuoso> | Who knows, maybe neither are used - I should get a hackage copy at some point. |
| 15:36:31 | <ski> | what would the `doA' do differently ? |
| 15:36:56 | <int-e> | dminuoso: but "much doA about nothing" just isn't the same |
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| 15:37:09 | <dminuoso> | :) |
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| 16:02:54 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: how would doA help you? |
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| 16:03:39 | <tomsmeding> | getting an error because doA can't manage to construct an Applicative expression for it, or getting an error because Monad is not satisfied -- how are these fundamentally different, apart from being potentially confusing to a newcomer? |
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| 16:25:19 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: The `Applicative` could have a `Monad` instance you don't want to use. |
| 16:25:35 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso was talking about optparse-applicative though |
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| 16:31:04 | <Leary> | dminuoso: You could use `A.do` with `QualifiedDo`, where `module A` provides `join` and `>>=` imposing `Unsatisfiable` constraints. |
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| 17:36:59 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Well thats what I ended up using as its reliable enough for that (because it has no Monad instance) |
| 17:37:12 | <dminuoso> | Though in combination with some features like pattern matching it still breaks. |
| 17:37:38 | <dminuoso> | i.e. when you do stuff like `Only a <- ...` |
| 17:41:21 | <tomsmeding> | sure, but doA wouldn't fix that, would it? |
| 17:41:26 | <tomsmeding> | it would just throw a different error |
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| 17:57:03 | <EvanR> | it's interesting how something "as simple as" |
| 17:57:12 | <EvanR> | :t Control.Exception.catches |
| 17:57:13 | <lambdabot> | IO a -> [Control.Exception.Handler a] -> IO a |
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| 17:57:42 | <EvanR> | requires understanding "existential" style polymorphism |
| 17:57:57 | <EvanR> | so much for simplehaskell.org |
| 18:01:09 | <EvanR> | (existential style wouldn't be so bad if it was explained somewhere obvious when you're trying to learn the language. It's unfortunately not in "a gentle introduction" xD) |
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| 18:18:41 | <monochrom> | Unfortunately the Gentle Introduction predated existential types. |
| 18:19:26 | <monochrom> | Or fortunately? I feel like the problem is caused by mentioning existential types, not by not mentioning. |
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| 18:20:11 | <tomsmeding> | which problem? |
| 18:20:40 | <monochrom> | Misusing existential types, and/or taking it as the go-to technique. |
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| 18:21:02 | <EvanR> | the haddock for catches just say you need to use the Handler type, and shows an example, but does not mention the existential or what that means, just assumes you know how to use it |
| 18:21:24 | <EvanR> | and now I only just noticed xD |
| 18:21:41 | <tomsmeding> | yeah the haddocks for catches is pretty good |
| 18:24:19 | <monochrom> | SomeException also assumes you know existential types. |
| 18:24:32 | <EvanR> | eh? |
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| 18:25:01 | <monochrom> | SomeException is an existential type. |
| 18:25:16 | <EvanR> | fromException and toException are how you convert the exceptions, how they work isn't really required knowledge |
| 18:25:38 | <EvanR> | but if you try to construct the example for catches you run into extentions needing to be enabled |
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| 18:26:22 | <EvanR> | and perhaps still not working if you customize it wrong, and violate some rules of existential types |
| 18:26:45 | <EvanR> | like the my brain exploded escaped skolem or something |
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| 18:59:59 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: one can see SomeException as an existential type, but in a programmer's brain, it's more a dynamic type |
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| 19:00:34 | <tomsmeding> | a dynamic type is a statically untyped thing that you interact with using functions that may fail if the dynamic type is wrong |
| 19:00:41 | <tomsmeding> | it may be _implemented_ using an existential |
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| 19:01:01 | <tomsmeding> | existentials, on the other hand, introduce skolem type variables into your type system |
| 19:01:14 | <tomsmeding> | from a suitably abstract perspective they're the same, but in practice they're not :p |
| 19:02:53 | <EvanR> | a sufficiently abstract perspective is indistinguishable from magic |
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| 19:05:45 | <EvanR> | an existential type used wrong breaks at compile time |
| 19:05:51 | <EvanR> | a dynamic type used wrong breaks at runtime |
| 19:06:10 | <EvanR> | don't try to convince me otherwise |
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| 19:08:34 | <monochrom> | Interpreters unify compile time with runtime. |
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| 19:11:04 | <EvanR> | moving the time posts |
| 19:11:15 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 19:12:41 | <EvanR> | dynamic languages have been positing a set theory theory of types, where they have the set of all possible values upfront |
| 19:13:10 | <EvanR> | not sure what polymorphism or existentials would mean there |
| 19:14:38 | <EvanR> | (the set of all possible values probably includes some wilds stuff like javascript's ability for arrays to contain themselves in non trivial ways) |
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| 20:08:39 | <tomsmeding> | % data Fix f = In (f (Fix f)) ; deriving instance (forall a. Show a => Show (f a)) => Show (Fix f) |
| 20:08:39 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 20:08:47 | <tomsmeding> | % let x = In [x] in x |
| 20:08:47 | <yahb2> | In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [I... |
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| 20:09:33 | <monochrom> | Would you like to s/data/newtype/ ? :) |
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| 20:10:16 | <tomsmeding> | % newtype Fix f = In (f (Fix f)) ; deriving instance (forall a. Show a => Show (f a)) => Show (Fix f) |
| 20:10:16 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 20:10:18 | <tomsmeding> | % let x = In [x] in x |
| 20:10:18 | <yahb2> | In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [In [I... |
| 20:10:34 | <tomsmeding> | more efficient pointlessness! |
| 20:10:57 | <mreh> | looks pointless to me :P |
| 20:11:01 | <monochrom> | Infinite types lead to Infinity Wars. >:) |
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| 20:16:06 | <mreh> | I think I just made a new pb. Three day refactor, compiles, two runtime errors, and then everything just works. |
| 20:16:14 | <tomsmeding> | hm, perhaps I should have written `repeat x` instead of `[x]`, for more recursion. :) |
| 20:16:25 | <tomsmeding> | mreh: congrats! |
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| 20:53:27 | <monochrom> | Hot take: Lean/Agda programming is type tetris, Haskell dependent type programming is Proxy tetris. :) |
| 20:53:56 | <geekosaur> | I'd say singleton tetris |
| 20:54:40 | <tomsmeding> | I concur with singleton tetris |
| 20:54:45 | <monochrom> | (I have been doing that for type-assured modulus arithmetic, e.g., a+b `mod` m, where m is determined by a phantom type.) |
| 20:54:54 | <tomsmeding> | if you can suffice with Proxy then you aren't doing enough tetris |
| 20:55:50 | <monochrom> | OK, I have also been doing withDict tetris. Is that OK? :) |
| 20:56:05 | <monochrom> | (It's the only reason why Proxy suffices.) |
| 20:56:07 | × | inline quits (~inline@2a02:8071:57a1:1260:1c9a:31b4:1f4:c0dc) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 20:56:11 | <tomsmeding> | oh you're taking the typeclasses approach to type-level haskell masochism |
| 20:56:24 | <int-e> | monochrom: you need to be carefule when doing that; if things fit too well, your code disappears. |
| 20:56:34 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 20:57:01 | <EvanR> | GHC deletes your code if it type checks |
| 20:57:09 | <EvanR> | in the modern version of that bug |
| 20:57:21 | <tomsmeding> | I find singletons more verbose but also more powerful; my experience (doing type tetris) is that if the inference system is not clever enough to do what you want, you're suddenly in a bind, whereas with singletons it's limited by your programming (and tetris) skills only |
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| 20:58:07 | <EvanR> | there are ways to trick the type class system into "inferring" things right |
| 20:58:26 | <EvanR> | which is where it gets dicey to understand |
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| 21:01:20 | <tomsmeding> | suppose you have two type-level naturals that you want to add. If they're peano SNats and there's no library function for that, you just do the stupid peano addition |
| 21:01:37 | <tomsmeding> | if they're type-level Nats with KnownNat constraints around, how are you going to conjure up a KnownNat (a + b)? |
| 21:01:43 | <tomsmeding> | you... don't |
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| 21:01:51 | <tomsmeding> | unless you bring in a GHC plugin that does it for you |
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| 21:02:56 | <monochrom> | No, I have (a+b) `mod` (natVal (Proxy :: Proxy m)). Only the modulus needs come from a type-level Nat. |
| 21:03:10 | <tomsmeding> | right, so maybe you're in the fragment where typeclass-based masochism works very well :) |
| 21:03:21 | <tomsmeding> | if you manage to stay there, it's a good place to be |
| 21:04:00 | <monochrom> | For that one, KnownNat, SomeNat and someNatVal suffice. |
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| 21:07:02 | <tomsmeding> | another example where singletons worked for me where typeclasses didn't: I was writing a interpreter-ish thing where the object language had some built-in concept of a monoid. I wanted to implement a code transformation in there that also modified types; among other things, it mapped monoid types to different monoid types. If you represent monoidness with a Monoid constraint in the AST, then how |
| 21:07:04 | <tomsmeding> | are you going to magic up a Monoid constraint on the (type family transformed) type? Not sure. If the types in the AST are singletons and the zero/plus operations are just functions that recurse on the singleton and do the right thing (the other side of the expression problem), then you just mirror the type family on the singleton values, and you apply the zero/plus functoins to the result and |
| 21:07:05 | <monochrom> | But next, I also have (Z mod prime)[x] mod (x^2+x+1). I am not going to define a singleton type for polynomials! So I use withDict if the polynomial is a runtime input. (I have a class Modulus m where type Carrier m; modulus :: p m -> Carrier m. In that example, modulus _ = x^2+x+1.) |
| 21:07:06 | <tomsmeding> | everything just works |
| 21:07:12 | <tomsmeding> | sorry for the wall |
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| 23:09:07 | ski | 'sn't convinced `Exception SomeException' is a good thing |
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| 23:09:26 | <ski> | % catch (error "foo") (\e -> return ((fromException . toException . toException) (e :: ErrorCall) :: Maybe ErrorCall)) |
| 23:09:26 | <yahb2> | Just foo |
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| 23:09:36 | <ski> | this doesn't really make sense, to me |
| 23:09:54 | <ski> | (also, i don't like the `Show' instance) |
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| 23:19:19 | <int-e> | ski: I get the complaint about the Show instance, but what is your complaint about the Exception instance? It enables you to use `throw` with SomeException |
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| 23:21:37 | <ski> | if i convert a `SomeException' to `SomeException' with `toException', i expect that `fromException' will only give a `Just' when the result type is `Maybe SomeException' |
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| 23:22:30 | <ski> | iow, `fromException . toException :: E0 -> Maybe E1' is `const Nothing', when `E0' is distinct from `E1', and is `Just' when they're equal |
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| 23:25:19 | <int-e> | I don't want to know all the things that would break if the toException would re-wrap a SomeException a second time. |
| 23:27:05 | <ski> | without `Exception SomeException', you'd need `catchSome :: IO a -> (SomeException -> IO a) -> IO a' or so, but the re-wrapping couldn't happen |
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| 23:28:05 | <ski> | (and, i guess, a `throwSome :: SomeException -> IO a', for convenience) |
| 23:28:07 | <int-e> | And how would you re-throw that SomeException? |
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| 23:28:32 | <int-e> | (overlapping trains of thoughts) |
| 23:29:47 | <ski> | (you could alternatively unwap the `SomeException' yourself, and call `throwIO' as usual) |
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| 23:34:55 | <int-e> | I guess I can see the complaint. Oh well, if you want onions, you can still wrap any exception in a newtype of your own. |
| 23:35:36 | <int-e> | or existential? |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-10-15.