Logs on 2025-10-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:32:43 | <haskellbridge> | <doc> was messing with SIMD on 9.12.2 native codegen and ran into an assembler error (different errors on -O0 and -O2, succeeds on -O1), reproducible on the playground. is this my bad, or should this be reported somewhere https://play.haskell.org/saved/G4GJ8ZKe |
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| 00:40:31 | <geekosaur> | I think any asm error should be reported on ghc's gitlab |
| 00:40:51 | <geekosaur> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues |
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| 08:08:44 | <[exa]> | so `ghcup` has the `set` command which sets up the paths, is there also some kind of `unset` for the case when I want to use a system ghc for a moment? |
| 08:09:01 | <[exa]> | (wondering if it doesn't exist or I just don't see it) |
| 08:09:37 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> try it |
| 08:09:38 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lol |
| 08:10:44 | [exa] | wipes out his eyes in disbelief |
| 08:10:50 | <[exa]> | ok, well, f |
| 08:10:52 | <[exa]> | thanks |
| 08:11:00 | <[exa]> | I could swear it wasn't there 5 minutes ago |
| 08:11:10 | tomsmeding | doubts |
| 08:11:22 | [exa] | departs to find a stone to hide under |
| 08:11:29 | tomsmeding | hugs [exa] |
| 08:11:44 | <[exa]> | ah it's not present in the tui |
| 08:11:52 | <[exa]> | probably confused myself on that one |
| 08:12:27 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 08:12:39 | <[exa]> | (now I just tried pressing `u` if it would `u`nset, and voila, it's `u`ninstall. nice find :D ) |
| 08:13:07 | <tomsmeding> | to be fair, u is documented at the bottom of the tui :p |
| 08:13:21 | <tomsmeding> | I guess it does work for the purpose |
| 08:13:28 | <[exa]> | this situation reminds me of monday morning |
| 08:13:45 | <[exa]> | how come it drags with me all the way to well, thursday |
| 08:16:00 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> tui is running out of shortcuts |
| 08:16:01 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> and I'm not a fan of popups |
| 08:16:11 | <tomsmeding> | doc: that's a very weird error, there are no floats whatsoever in your program, why is a movsd (move single to double precision float) instruction being emitted? |
| 08:17:55 | <[exa]> | maerwald: maybe pressing s again? or better leave that as "retry setting" and go shift-s ? |
| 08:18:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> well |
| 08:18:41 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-hs/issues/1294 |
| 08:19:14 | <tomsmeding> | why would they want that? |
| 08:19:34 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> capslock on |
| 08:19:39 | <tomsmeding> | yes I read that |
| 08:19:54 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> for quit, it's indeed annoying |
| 08:20:19 | <tomsmeding> | if accidental capslock is the first time they tried a capital letter hotkey, then I fail to see why one would capitalisation to not matter across the board immediately |
| 08:20:32 | <[exa]> | ctrl-s? |
| 08:20:34 | [exa] | dodges |
| 08:20:46 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps indeed for q it's nice to allow Q too, if only to make it as easy as possible to quit the app |
| 08:21:02 | <tomsmeding> | (prevent people going "I can't exit vim" on ghcup) |
| 08:21:12 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lmao |
| 08:21:49 | <[exa]> | "in this video I'll show 5 easy ways to quit ghcup tui if you're stuck installing haskell" |
| 08:22:05 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, this is your call and I don't care enough to really complain about it if you do make hotkeys case-insensitive, but if I maintained ghcup I would limit this change to q at least |
| 08:22:11 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: lol |
| 08:22:14 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I actually recorded a video for windows installation, lol |
| 08:22:27 | <[exa]> | maerwald: anyway I guess all this is just me whining ^, don't take it very seriously |
| 08:22:56 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://youtu.be/bB4fmQiUYPw |
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| 08:23:30 | <[exa]> | the main problem was that the lack of "unset" in UI is kinda surprising, maybe the easiest solution is to hint after `set` completes that "you can force unset via commandline" or so |
| 08:23:44 | <tomsmeding> | I'd remove "force" from that sentence |
| 08:24:07 | <[exa]> | I meant like, "as opposed to weak unset by setting something else" |
| 08:24:10 | <[exa]> | am I overdoing it? |
| 08:24:14 | <[exa]> | can it be afternoon finally? |
| 08:24:17 | <tomsmeding> | I don't see how that's strong vs weak |
| 08:24:39 | [exa] | slams a nice flat stone over himself and enjoys the hideout |
| 08:24:41 | <tomsmeding> | I think wanting to unset is relatively uncommon |
| 08:25:08 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: be careful, don't hit your head |
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| 08:36:14 | <tomsmeding> | the assembly generated by ghc on doc's example looks weird anyway |
| 08:36:34 | <tomsmeding> | how is it useful on x86_64 to do `pxor %xmm0,%xmm0 ; movhlps %xmm0,%xmm0`? |
| 08:36:48 | <tomsmeding> | zero the xmm0 register, then proceed to copy the high half of it to the low half |
| 08:37:06 | <tomsmeding> | moving a bunch of zeros around without accomplishing anything? |
| 08:37:23 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> yeah, mapping all of the cli to the tui is hard... although with the new advanced install menu, that's partially done |
| 08:37:35 | <tomsmeding> | possibly this is just an assembly template that ghc fills in and it ends up generating redundant instructions here |
| 08:37:51 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> if you press Enter, we could show the less common options (like unset) |
| 08:38:18 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: about that: why is it called "advance options" instead of "advanced options"? |
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| 08:38:43 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> artistic freedom? |
| 08:38:48 | <tomsmeding> | the current phrase reads rather awkward in english, I think :p |
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| 11:38:52 | <tomsmeding> | is there a way to make the Append type family "half-injective"? |
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| 11:39:27 | <tomsmeding> | type family Append a b where { Append '[] b = b ; Append (x : xs) b = x : Append xs b } |
| 11:39:52 | <tomsmeding> | now this thing is not injective in any of the standard ways, but we do have the property that Append a b ~ Append a c implies b ~ c |
| 11:40:04 | <tomsmeding> | is there a way I can tell GHC to use this implication in type inference? |
| 11:54:27 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: Perhaps you can piggyback off `FunctionalDependencies`? Say: `class Append xs ys ~ xys => HasAppend xs ys xys | xs xys -> ys, ys xys -> xs where { type Append xs ys }` |
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| 12:02:57 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: I can write that type class, but GHC doesn't seem to accept the dependencies: https://play.haskell.org/saved/EGhc89zh |
| 12:03:08 | <tomsmeding> | uncommenting either of line 15 or 16 makes compilation fail |
| 12:03:12 | <tomsmeding> | did I make a mistake? |
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| 12:04:16 | <tomsmeding> | (if you put the dependency declarations on the same line as the class keyword, as they would normally be, this module has more language pragmas than lines of useful code) |
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| 12:31:17 | <Leary> | I'm not sure what the error message is actually complaining about (and I can't be bothered reading the manual to find out), but GHC will at least accept the first dependency with `UndecidableInstances`: https://play.haskell.org/saved/5T5D4ys5 |
| 12:31:35 | <Leary> | (see also, the style I've recently adopted for too many LANGUAGE pragmata) |
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| 12:32:52 | <tomsmeding> | yes I know you can merge LANGUAGE pragmata :) |
| 12:33:05 | <tomsmeding> | let me try that |
| 12:37:23 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: that works and the rest of my code compiles (after some messing around to let Append's kind be linked to the kind of the arguments), but it doesn't seem to help in practice |
| 12:38:32 | <mauke> | proposal: every language pragma should have an associated unicode character/emoji. then you could say {-# LANGUAGE 🫃😅🤡💌💯👁️🗨️👌🫦🧑🦲 #-} |
| 12:41:10 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: I think this is a faithful abstraction/simplification of the behaviour that I'm looking for: https://play.haskell.org/saved/UAIlXBxX |
| 12:41:43 | <tomsmeding> | note that foo1 typechecks because with the first list literal, Append reduces and the list~list equality resolves to a l2~_ equality |
| 12:41:52 | <tomsmeding> | but foo2 does not because the semi-injectivity is not used |
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| 12:45:36 | <tomsmeding> | this is not _necessary_ to be able to write my code but it would be good for developer ergonomics in my case |
| 12:46:12 | <tomsmeding> | (hole-driven development becomes more useful if GHC can actually derive what the type of a hole should be) |
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| 12:49:24 | <Leary> | This is the best I was able to do (lol): https://play.haskell.org/saved/IIKMopeT |
| 12:49:39 | <Leary> | You might have to give up on this one. |
| 12:51:28 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: the l12 can still be replaced by (Append l1 l2) in the body |
| 12:51:33 | <tomsmeding> | but yeah, this won't fly :p |
| 12:51:42 | <tomsmeding> | thank you for trying though! |
| 12:51:48 | <tomsmeding> | I figured that the answer would be no |
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| 13:00:15 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: type classes are the biggest impediment in hole driven programming, the same in idris. |
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| 13:00:33 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: I don't get why it cannot create a hole for a type class instance that depends on another hole. |
| 13:00:39 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: in my original code there aren't even any classes! |
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| 13:01:08 | <tomsmeding> | this is about type family injectivity; the type classes were brought in in an attempt to abuse FunctionalDependencies, which are apparently slightly stronger than tyfam injectivity |
| 13:01:53 | <kuribas> | But why do this in haskell at all? |
| 13:02:03 | <tomsmeding> | good question |
| 13:02:04 | <kuribas> | If you are doing lots of type level computation, maybe idris is a better language. |
| 13:02:16 | <kuribas> | (or agda, lean, ...) |
| 13:02:18 | <tomsmeding> | I have considered multiple times to rewrite this in agda |
| 13:02:46 | <kuribas> | What is it exactly you are doing? |
| 13:02:55 | <tomsmeding> | but I concluded each time that the increase in convenience for type-level stuff would not be offset against the loss of convenience when actually doing something useful |
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| 13:03:09 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: writing a compiler |
| 13:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | with a well-typed well-scoped De Bruijn AST |
| 13:03:31 | <kuribas> | ah :) |
| 13:03:38 | <tomsmeding> | and I'm implementing a highly nontrivial code transformation in it that changes types a bunch |
| 13:03:43 | <[exa]> | oh man. |
| 13:03:46 | <[exa]> | :) |
| 13:03:51 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: prototype it in idris/agda, then port to haskell? |
| 13:03:59 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: sunk cost, at this point |
| 13:04:10 | <tomsmeding> | it may or may not have been a good idea |
| 13:04:31 | <kuribas> | idk, haskell to idris may not be too hard? |
| 13:04:32 | <tomsmeding> | a taste: https://git.tomsmeding.com/chad-fast/tree/src/CHAD.hs |
| 13:04:52 | <tomsmeding> | (this is the most complicated file in the project) |
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| 13:06:57 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: does that mean that you commiserate? |
| 13:07:02 | <kuribas> | Edwin Bradey said that using dependent types helped a lot in getting the Debruyn indexes correct in his code. |
| 13:07:09 | <kuribas> | In the idris2 compiler. |
| 13:07:12 | <tomsmeding> | yeah so this is the same thing |
| 13:07:16 | <tomsmeding> | but with singletons |
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| 13:07:23 | <tomsmeding> | (or at least, I assume it's the same thing) |
| 13:08:04 | <kuribas> | singletons are a good sign you want dependent types :) |
| 13:08:08 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
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| 14:06:03 | <bwe> | what's the equivalent for Text as input? `readMaybe :: Read a => String -> Maybe a` |
| 14:10:23 | <kuribas> | readMaybe . unpack? |
| 14:10:34 | <kuribas> | Or specific parser for Text |
| 14:11:38 | <Leary> | bwe: If you want to use the `Read` typeclass, you can only `unpack` to `String`. If it's just for a number, there are some `Reader`s in `Data.Text.Reader`. |
| 14:12:54 | <bwe> | Leary: That's what I was looking for. Thanks. |
| 14:13:15 | <bwe> | kuribas: I felt bad at just using unpack to get it to String. |
| 14:14:04 | <kuribas> | bwe: it is likely to be inefficient, unless the instance get inlined. |
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| 15:36:18 | <haskellbridge> | <doc> tomsmeding: I took a look on the gitlab, the assembly error I ran into may have already been fixed with https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/25658 seems the same error |
| 15:37:26 | <tomsmeding> | doc: That sounds highly relevant, yes. If you feel adventurous, you may be able to try a 9.14 alpha :) |
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| 17:25:27 | <chromoblob> | so. i want to develop Linux apps in Haskell. if i use GHC, how do i distribute my app (e.g. what are dependencies)? |
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| 17:31:09 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It's about the same as C++: there are multiple options. If a distro packages your program, they choose one for you |
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| 17:31:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> For example, arch linux has a policy of dynamically linking even the haskell deps themselves. While I distribute either nix derivations, or completely statically linked binaries |
| 17:32:31 | <chromoblob> | ok, i want to have a fully static binary. how to? |
| 17:33:43 | <EvanR> | that's been the default in ghc for a long time |
| 17:34:04 | <EvanR> | build your haskell program and check the linkage of the resulting binary |
| 17:34:23 | <chromoblob> | okay, thanks |
| 17:35:39 | <chromoblob> | i don't have Linux at the moment. does it even not depend on libc? |
| 17:35:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> That still links libc and gmp afaik, no? |
| 17:36:35 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> To statically link system libraries themselves it was somewhat more involved, and I've lost an example >_> |
| 17:36:44 | <EvanR> | yeah it does |
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| 17:37:03 | <EvanR> | though I'm not sure the wisdom of attempting to static link your own libc |
| 17:37:23 | <EvanR> | in the case of gmp you could avoid it by using the haskell version of the Integer implementation |
| 17:37:25 | <chromoblob> | philosophical reasons... |
| 17:37:45 | <EvanR> | the compiled libc is usually highly dependent on the OS |
| 17:38:04 | <EvanR> | it's the mediator between normal C code and the kernel |
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| 17:38:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> If you're just targeting linux and don't dlopen, you can linux musl and be happy, no? |
| 17:38:27 | <chromoblob> | i thought Linux had a standard ABI |
| 17:38:39 | <EvanR> | yes if you cross your fingers correctly |
| 17:38:53 | <chromoblob> | omg... |
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| 17:38:57 | <EvanR> | binary distribution on linux is a hope and pray |
| 17:39:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Linux has a stable abi. The problem is your deps |
| 17:39:23 | <EvanR> | C standard library is also a stable API |
| 17:39:28 | <EvanR> | but here we are |
| 17:39:42 | <chromoblob> | note, A*B*I |
| 17:39:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yeah, except for little unstable parts that someone will surely get their little library fingers in =) |
| 17:39:56 | <EvanR> | you traded "philosophical problems" for actual problems |
| 17:40:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> In theory if everyone was a good citizen, you could dynamically link to glibc and have no problems |
| 17:40:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I think on BSDs they do just that, except it's another libc |
| 17:40:41 | <EvanR> | that's usually how I've seen it done |
| 17:40:45 | <chromoblob> | no, glibc is not Linux, it is GNU |
| 17:41:07 | <chromoblob> | if only Linux shipped a standard libc... |
| 17:41:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> As I say, the syscalls are incredibly stable. You won't see a breakage in /them/ |
| 17:41:31 | <EvanR> | there's a reason there's a standard API, so it should work with any implementation |
| 17:42:13 | <EvanR> | alternative libc implementations seem to be about memory usage, but you're on some random persons linux with a spinning cube desktop |
| 17:42:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> If you write from scratch targeting linux without libc, you can fear no breakage. Unfortunately, you 1) usually don't have enough time for that, 2) want to integrate with the system, and some integrations require using shared libraries. One example of that is DNS resolution |
| 17:42:58 | <EvanR> | and it's a pain in the ass |
| 17:43:10 | <EvanR> | it's the ultimate form of "never use dependencies" |
| 17:43:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Go world went with rewriting the world, and it sort-of works for them. They produce completely static binaries, and it's very convenient to use |
| 17:43:59 | <EvanR> | they can just recompile if things change |
| 17:44:08 | <EvanR> | and redistribute |
| 17:44:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Anyway, to the original question of statically linking: I don't have a complete answer, but look into the docs of ghc options «-static -optl-static -staticlib» |
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| 17:51:55 | <EvanR> | I'm also linked against the vdso |
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| 18:28:01 | <chromoblob> | what was wrong with Haskell Platform? why was it replaced with Ghcup? |
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| 18:50:15 | <geekosaur> | keeping it reasnably up to date without causing massive churn |
| 18:50:57 | <geekosaur> | with the result that it was always too old to be practicably usable |
| 18:52:29 | <geekosaur> | the Haskell ecosystem (and especially ghc) moves way too fast for a "Debian stable" setup to work |
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| 19:57:01 | <EvanR> | fun fact, heinrich apfelmus's profile picture on disqus.com appears to be an apple in the process of turning into applesauce |
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| 19:57:33 | <monochrom> | "meltdown" >:) |
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| 20:48:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> geekosaur: well, it works great in stackage., but you need a range of freshness to suit your need |
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| 20:51:06 | <geekosaur> | stackage also updates more often than HP did |
| 20:51:27 | <geekosaur> | (which I never understood; someone had to be pretty dedicated to keep it fresh enough to be usable) |
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| 20:52:23 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> stackage + ghcup is kind of the Haskell Platform, logically extended for 2025 - a lts snapshot about yearly and a "nightly" every few days works well |
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| 20:54:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> though I think the HP gave more of a "single install" experience |
| 20:55:43 | <geekosaur> | it did, it's just that it never seemed to update 🙂 |
| 20:55:55 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> someone could much more easily build that experience now, on top of stackage + ghcup |
| 20:56:03 | <geekosaur> | a new LTS appears every year-ish, but point releases of that happen every few days |
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| 20:56:29 | <geekosaur> | which keeps it more usable than HP |
| 20:56:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> i didn't realise lts updated that much |
| 20:56:53 | <geekosaur> | pretty often, yes |
| 20:57:02 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sounds like debian testing maybe |
| 20:57:26 | <geekosaur> | stackage.org used to show it, I think now it's compressed down to just the most recent one because the list was getting pretty big |
| 20:57:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> HP was debian stable, ie always old |
| 20:57:53 | <geekosaur> | but the minor release numbers and last-updated dates still make it pretty obvious |
| 20:58:04 | <geekosaur> | yes, I specifically referenced that earlier |
| 20:58:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> me is chatting on a very small screen |
| 20:58:52 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> at the beach 🏖️ 😎 |
| 20:59:04 | <geekosaur> | lol |
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| 21:00:26 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sending the Aloha from Maui 🙌🌺 |
| 21:01:26 | <EvanR> | you don't have your entire coding rig deployed at the beach? |
| 21:01:31 | <EvanR> | weak |
| 21:02:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> my wife would grumble 😅 |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-10-23.