Logs on 2025-10-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:02:58 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 00:05:22 | × | Googulator59 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-d161-d36f-e0e5-1b0a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 00:11:23 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 00:20:42 | Lears | is now known as Leary |
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| 00:31:32 | × | haltingsolver quits (~cmo@2604:3d09:207f:8000::d1dc) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 00:31:46 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 00:35:46 | × | Googulator58 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-03fa-d161-d36f-e0e5-1b0a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 00:49:23 | × | gabiruh_ quits (~gabiruh@vps19177.publiccloud.com.br) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 04:08:57 | Dhark8 | is now known as Shark8 |
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| 05:11:32 | fgarcia | is now known as fgidim |
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| 09:35:06 | <Square2> | Is it just me or is this definition of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currying the opposite of haskells curry/uncurry. I suspect the error lies with me. |
| 09:39:39 | <Square2> | Oh nvm, the haskell wiki explained it to me. |
| 09:40:25 | <sprout> | yah, it's consistent with the wikipedia page |
| 09:40:42 | <sprout> | from axb->c to a->b->c |
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| 10:19:56 | <tomsmeding> | is there a way to tell ghc to don't raise an unused binding warning for one specific function? |
| 10:20:05 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps some "unused" pragma? |
| 10:21:08 | <sshine> | tomsmeding, it seems there's only CLI params |
| 10:21:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Ah yes, rust pragmas have also spoilt me |
| 10:21:33 | <sshine> | no #[allow(...)] equivalent |
| 10:21:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> For unused variables, can't you just use it vacuously? Like in a "const" somewhere ekse |
| 10:22:24 | <srazkvt> | that's kind of ugly though |
| 10:22:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Back in C++ we would "(void*)the_var" that shit |
| 10:25:19 | <mauke> | named it with an underscore? |
| 10:25:31 | <mauke> | s/d\b// |
| 10:25:52 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: use underscore? |
| 10:26:07 | <kuribas> | _foo |
| 10:26:07 | <tomsmeding> | oooh |
| 10:26:09 | <tomsmeding> | that works! |
| 10:26:14 | <tomsmeding> | thank you mauke kuribas |
| 10:26:19 | <srazkvt> | Morj: void* ? you sure not just void ? at least in c we just do void |
| 10:26:29 | <tomsmeding> | definitely (void) |
| 10:27:03 | <tomsmeding> | though with modern (?) compilers you can __attribute__((unused)) |
| 10:27:10 | <tomsmeding> | which IMO is neater than (void)'ing it somewhere |
| 10:27:16 | <mauke> | s/modern/gcc/ |
| 10:27:20 | <tomsmeding> | clang does that finew |
| 10:27:23 | <kuribas> | (void*) is unsafecast |
| 10:27:24 | <tomsmeding> | s/w// |
| 10:27:34 | <mauke> | s/gcc/gcc and imitators/ |
| 10:27:45 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: yes which makes no sense and may well be rejected by the compiler if the thing is not a scalar in the first place, such as a struct |
| 10:27:47 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: ah |
| 10:28:27 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: is __attribute__ in general syntax that is parsed by other compilers, even if not this particular 'unused' attribute? |
| 10:28:39 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: does C distinguis between scalar and compound? I thought it's just all addresses for C. |
| 10:28:40 | <tomsmeding> | because if this is just warning management, I wouldn't care so much about proper cross-compiler compatibility |
| 10:28:50 | <mauke> | AFAIK __attribute__ is a GNU invention |
| 10:28:54 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: C distinguishes very much between values and pointers |
| 10:29:05 | <tomsmeding> | pointers are just scalars, but structs are not scalars |
| 10:29:20 | <mauke> | because they didn't like #pragma because you can't generate it from a macro |
| 10:29:39 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: you can convert pointer to int, no? |
| 10:29:40 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: `error: cannot convert to a pointer type` |
| 10:29:48 | <tomsmeding> | yes but you cannot convert a struct to an int |
| 10:30:11 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: what if you cast the pointer, then back? |
| 10:30:15 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: ah I see -- a viewpoint that I agree with, by the way, though that's beside the point here |
| 10:30:47 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: maybe intel cc (is that still a thing?) might support it |
| 10:30:48 | <kuribas> | (int *(int*)(&my_struct)) or something... |
| 10:31:08 | <tomsmeding> | lol ok yeah |
| 10:31:14 | <srazkvt> | icc is still a thing, but i don't know of anyone who uses it |
| 10:31:24 | <tomsmeding> | you can just &my_struct; if you want |
| 10:31:47 | <tomsmeding> | I guess (void)&my_struct; |
| 10:32:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> srazkvt: Yeah you're right, I was misremembering. In any case, for the last how many years of C++ for me it was Q_UNUSED(thevar) |
| 10:32:29 | <srazkvt> | yea i usually make it a macro too |
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| 10:47:34 | <kuribas> | Why does always the argument that you can implement the wrong business logic comes up when talking about formal languages? In my experience, the majority of bugs (in those languages) or not business logic related. |
| 10:48:35 | <kuribas> | Also, if the code reflects the business logic cleanly, it's easier to change when required, rather than have an dynamic, spagetty mess of imperative side-effects. |
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| 10:49:18 | <kuribas> | Of course, full on formal verification can be a huge time wast if you implement the wrong business logic. |
| 10:49:59 | <kuribas> | But I find static types a nice middle ground, usually not a huge extra effort. |
| 10:51:02 | <__monty__> | I do think it's fair to say the most impactful bugs are ones in the logic as implemented. The if statement that didn't actually guard its body comes to mind, was that Apple or Heartbleed? |
| 10:52:01 | <__monty__> | That doesn't mean that I'm willing to waste time tracing through a dynamic OOP codebase to figure out where a number is being passed rather than a string. |
| 10:52:32 | <mauke> | that was "goto fail" |
| 10:52:33 | <__monty__> | But for some changing code and the type feels like too big a waste of time, I suppose. |
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| 11:11:58 | <kuribas> | __monty__: word |
| 11:13:06 | <kuribas> | IMO types also help greatly with understanding a codebase better. |
| 11:13:12 | <kuribas> | Especially if you have a good IDE. |
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| 11:47:04 | <__monty__> | Hoogle is a killer feature that's only possible due to Haskell's type system. |
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| 12:02:54 | <[exa]> | kuribas: people tend to ignore the 80-20 rule when talking about programs |
| 12:03:29 | <[exa]> | in the case of business logic vs. stupid bugs that prevent you to refactor to new business logic, it becomes 99.99999-0.00001 rule |
| 12:05:57 | <[exa]> | kuribas: btw the types are a good counter-argument, in haskell most of the "business logic" tends to get implemented in `data` definitions instead of functions. :D |
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| 12:06:55 | <__monty__> | Like the interpreter pattern? |
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| 12:07:09 | <__monty__> | IME it's definitely not most business logic. |
| 12:08:35 | <[exa]> | ok not "most" but it constraints the implementation pretty well, esp. if you manage to have the interpretish types, and esp. if you manage to separate the issue into nice blobs that only touch each other's `data` |
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| 12:11:23 | <[exa]> | is there actually some tech docs behind hoogle? in particular, how complex queries it can handle |
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| 12:13:25 | <[exa]> | (doc refers to papers from 1995-ish) |
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| 12:17:17 | <kuribas> | [exa]: I see "data" as modelling the entities of the business logic. |
| 12:17:45 | <kuribas> | [exa]: Without data, like in clojure, it's just loosely modelled "somewhere". |
| 12:18:23 | <kuribas> | IMO even worse if it comes from the database, and you don't even know the shape of data without inspecting the database. |
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| 12:21:35 | <Lycurgus> | biz logic and hs - culturally discordant / cognitively dissonant |
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| 13:37:45 | <kuribas> | it doesn't have to be, haskell is a tool to codify behaviour, that should work for any problem. |
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| 13:43:41 | <kuribas> | I don't see why haskell should be limited to blockchain and fast traiding. |
| 13:44:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> In my company haskell is limited to rewrite bash scripts longer than 20 lines |
| 13:44:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Either with shh or shake |
| 13:45:34 | <kuribas> | no pandoc? |
| 13:46:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> We use pandoc periodically, it's not load-bearing. Easier to just write the docs in the final format directly, you know ;-) |
| 13:47:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> We've been recently trying to write new internal papers with typst instead of latex, and I like it |
| 13:48:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> But I mean that shh (and shake) provide the load-bearing part of the small scripts that we have. They are then ran the way you would run a bash script, with a shabang line being "#!/usr/bin/env nix-shell" |
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| 14:09:49 | <gf35> | hi all, i'm trying to get up and running with Yesod on nix, but i'm hitting some crazy build errors when `shakespeare` (and a couple others) are being compiled. namely undefined symbols in GLIBC_PRIVATE. i'm wondering if this is because the yesod stack templates are a little too old or if this is something common than nix users run into |
| 14:10:42 | <gf35> | i've used nix with a couple other small haskell learning projects without issue, which makes me think it is something specific with the Yesod stack templates |
| 14:11:44 | <gf35> | (also, in this case, i'm not using nix's ghc. i'm using the ghc managed by stack without any system/nix integration) |
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| 14:43:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> gf3: that's a weird situation. I take it your system is not nixos? Did you try compiling with stack's nix integration to use ghc from nix too? |
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| 14:47:34 | <gf3> | Morj: yes, i've tried that as well. i spent some time reading about stack's nix integration and apparently it's pretty brutal. i'd have to re-specify all the cabal deps in nix (or use a tool like cabal2nix) |
| 14:47:56 | <gf3> | currently i'm only using nix to get stack |
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| 14:59:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> gf3: I don't think it's right: you only need to specify /system/ deps in nix integration, all the haskell deps are still gotten from the regular cabal file and stack snapshot |
| 15:00:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Like system zlib-dev package you specify in the nix section of the stack file, but haskell's zlib you don't |
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| 15:39:41 | <gf3> | well, any advice would be appreciated. as that's what i'm doing and running into issues |
| 15:40:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Sorry, I'm also compiling yesod with shakespeare templates with stack with nix integration on a non-nix system, but I don't have those issues <_< |
| 15:41:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> My only thought was that since you're seeing glibc errors, it might be related to how you got ghc on the system - either it's a nix system and ghc is not, or your system has a way too old libc version (debian old old old old ancient old stable) |
| 15:43:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> «a non-nix system» - mac and opensuse tumbleweed in my case, both with very fresh packages |
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| 15:54:49 | <gf3> | my ghc is coming from stack (using the default yesod/postgres template). here's the GLIBC error (this symbol was removed in modern glibc): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/5qK2IJmg |
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| 16:00:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Huh, so it uses glibc from nix. Also it's a weird place for such an error. When you compile other binaries, do you get the same error? Try running for example "stack build fourmolu" in the project directory |
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| 16:01:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Also I didn't find yesod-dev very useful (= The reload speed was too annoying |
| 16:01:15 | <geekosaur> | that looks like TH linking in a binary dependency |
| 16:01:31 | <geekosaur> | so that needs to be rebuilt against a newer glibc |
| 16:01:54 | <geekosaur> | you'd have to look at what TH the Devel module uses to track down the dep |
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| 16:03:13 | <geekosaur> | (that's also why "<command line>": ghci and TH both use the bytecode linker, whose error messages therefore assume ghci |
| 16:03:17 | <geekosaur> | ) |
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| 16:25:19 | <gf3> | Morj: same problem → https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Cg6RW1AC |
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| 16:27:32 | <gf3> | geekosaur: what's TH in this context? |
| 16:28:28 | <geekosaur> | Template Haskell |
| 16:28:49 | <geekosaur> | Yesod uses it heavily |
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| 16:31:36 | <gf3> | ahh, that's probably why the quickstart guide recommends installing the "build-essential" debian package |
| 16:32:43 | <gf3> | FWIW i'm on Fedora Silverblue, which is why i'm using nix for the system-level deps |
| 16:36:07 | <gustrb> | hey is there a good way to get haskell in arch? Couldn't find a good way of installing it |
| 16:36:15 | <gustrb> | (not using nix) |
| 16:36:56 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> ghcup if you dont want to do nix |
| 16:38:00 | <gustrb> | nvm my message, had some issues with ghcup but working as expected now |
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| 17:56:34 | <gf3> | ahh, still pulling my hair out with this (nix + stack + yesod) setup |
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| 19:50:35 | <Ptival> | Does someone know a tool / CI script / whatever that checks for discrepancies between a stack.yaml and a cabal.project? e.g. listing the same source repos at the same tags |
| 19:56:28 | <merijn> | I doubt such a thing exists. I suspect the overlap of those two use-cases is practically the empty set |
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| 20:14:06 | <tomsmeding> | well, a use case is having a project that you want to be conveniently buildable by as many people as possible. But I also don't know of such a tool |
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| 20:23:39 | <Ptival> | That's my use case. Main dev is a stack user, I prefer cabal, and things gets out of sync. In CI, it's easy to check that the current .cabal matches package.yaml by calling hpack, and essentially I'd want the same checks for the files I mentioned. It's a pretty easy script, just don't want to reinvent the wheel if it exists. |
| 20:24:30 | <merijn> | I mean, stack also works with just a cabal file and no hpack, eliminating one level of potential mismatches |
| 20:25:43 | <Ptival> | Here the main dev wants to keep writing package.yaml |
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| 20:28:36 | <merijn> | Unfortunate, but I think you'd have to hack something together yourself |
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| 21:04:14 | <talismanick> | Has anyone tried ghc->wasm->android? |
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| 21:34:17 | <sm> | Ptival is the main issue keeping the cabal.project file in sync ? And why is that needed - because of depending on unreleased software on github ? |
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| 21:46:58 | <Ptival> | sm Yes. Mainly an issue because the stack devs don't remember to update tags in cabal.project when they update them in stack.yaml. |
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| 21:51:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> aha. Have a script that bumps the tags in both files ? |
| 21:52:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I bet there's other places those should be bumped too (docs) |
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| 22:35:13 | <Ptival> | I bet the stack devs would just not remember about the script and just update the package.yaml directly manually. Pretty much the problem is the stack devs forgetting that their workflow is not the only workflow, so the CI acts as a reminder that they should update the workflow for others too. :D |
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| 22:41:55 | <jackdk> | Do it in a pre-commit hook imho so you get the feedback immediately |
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| 23:31:03 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> also add a loud comment in the stack.yaml telling people to use the script |
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| 23:31:30 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (or manually keep the cabal.project synced) |
| 23:31:46 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (likewise in the cabal.project of course) |
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| 23:35:58 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that should be enough, to be honest; a pre-commit hook is nice in theory but I bet will create headaches |
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| 23:56:27 | × | Zemy_ quits (~Zemy@72.178.108.235) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:56:37 | → | Zemy joins (~Zemy@2600:100c:b0a9:3cf3:de:3dff:fe32:3d35) |
| 23:57:10 | → | Zemy_ joins (~Zemy@72.178.108.235) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-10-28.