Logs on 2025-10-31 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:02:19 | → | L29Ah joins (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) |
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| 00:09:31 | trickard__ | is now known as trickard |
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| 02:11:39 | → | L29Ah joins (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) |
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| 02:18:26 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I'd like to see that |
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| 02:50:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | sm: go for it, it ran faster than i expected |
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| 03:52:13 | trickard__ | is now known as trickard |
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| 04:06:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I was hoping you might share yours :) |
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| 08:19:19 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: Coming back to our discussion yesterday, the thing about "effect systems" using free monads that I don't like, is that in the end just have a bunch of closures, which are black boxes. |
| 08:19:35 | <kuribas> | You don't end up with code that is easier to understand, easier to manipulate. |
| 08:19:49 | <kuribas> | On top of the ineffeciencies of the free monad approach. |
| 08:20:27 | <kuribas> | And what it boils down to, injecting closures in your code, has existed before as "dependency injection". |
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| 09:25:33 | <tomsmeding> | @tell kuribas Sure, free monads end up as a bunch of uninspectable closures, but that's because (>>=)'s typing does that: there are monad operation calls inside a closure argument to (>>=). With applicatives, there are no (<*>) or pure calls inside a closure, so there is still black-box computation, but the Applicative structure is all visible |
| 09:25:33 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 11:25:16 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding kuribas: are there free selectives already in the libraries? (just saw the messages above so kinda wondering) |
| 11:29:15 | tomsmeding | doesn't know |
| 11:30:59 | <tomsmeding> | sm: bitwise AND is enough https://lcamtuf.substack.com/p/sierpinski-triangle-in-my-bitwise |
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| 11:35:04 | <kuribas> | [exa]: I don't know. I like the applicative inside monad pattern. |
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| 11:38:51 | <tomsmeding> | %% putStr$unlines[["#."!!fromEnum(i.&.j>0)|j<-[0..31]]|i<-[0..31::Int]] -- sm |
| 11:38:52 | <yahb2> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GlIradAP |
| 11:41:36 | <[exa]> | what is this %% sorcery |
| 11:42:22 | <tomsmeding> | the original yahb did it too, and someone requested the functionality |
| 11:42:37 | <[exa]> | cool |
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| 11:43:32 | <tomsmeding> | the pastes expire, though |
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| 11:45:42 | <tomsmeding> | ooh it can be golfed: fromEnum(i.&.j>0) -> signum(i.&.j) |
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| 11:49:16 | <__monty__> | I was going trying ('#':repeat '.')!!(i.&.j), my golf is weak. |
| 11:54:37 | <tomsmeding> | well you did shorten it :) |
| 11:54:59 | <tomsmeding> | because it allows removing the ::Int annotation |
| 11:55:12 | <tomsmeding> | though the signum trick also does, and it's also shorter, so signum does win |
| 11:56:01 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: a little bit shorter (though still longer than signum): '#':cycle"." |
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| 11:58:36 | <__monty__> | Darn, you put me to shame again, found `['.','.'..]`. |
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| 12:41:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> tomsmeding: With an import Data.Bits. Thanks! |
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| 12:52:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> needs a console so we can run tiny games |
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| 13:00:09 | <__monty__> | Can't get this any more golfed (trying to more faithfully reproduce the original), `putStr$foldMap(foldr(++)"\n")[[["██"," "]!!signum(i.&.j)|j<-[0..31]]|i<-[0..31]]`. |
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| 13:00:51 | <__monty__> | Of course I copied a line break in the middle of `" "` >.< |
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| 13:05:05 | <tomsmeding> | putStr$unlines$concat<$>[[["██"," "]!!signum(i.&.j)|j<-[0..31]]|i<-[0..31]] |
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| 13:08:33 | <tomsmeding> | putStr$unlines[["█ "!!signum(i.&.j)|j<-[0..31],_<-"ab"]|i<-[0..31]] |
| 13:10:53 | <int-e> | same here, plus `signum` -> `min 1` |
| 13:11:11 | <tomsmeding> | oo nice |
| 13:12:46 | <int-e> | > map length ["mapM putrStrLn", "putStr$unlines"] -- also this if you don't care about the return type |
| 13:12:48 | <lambdabot> | [14,14] |
| 13:13:10 | <tomsmeding> | the typo broke it :p |
| 13:13:20 | <int-e> | oops |
| 13:14:54 | <tomsmeding> | if you allow an additional import, forM[...]putStrLn |
| 13:18:08 | <__monty__> | Darn, was gonna say I beat you by one character `for_(concat<$>[[["██"," "]!!signum(i.&.j)|j<-[0..31]]|i<-[0..31]])putStrLn` but you already got there. (Modulo the Data.Foldable import, but who really cares about a couple characters?) |
| 13:18:09 | <tomsmeding> | oh but you can do the same to the `min` without imports |
| 13:19:05 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: oops, that's so obvious now that you said it |
| 13:19:25 | <tomsmeding> | without imports I think this is the shortest so far: |
| 13:19:27 | <tomsmeding> | mapM putStrLn[["█ "!!min(i.&.j)1|j<-[0..31],_<-"ab"]|i<-[0..31]] |
| 13:19:54 | <int-e> | well you still have the Data.Bits import :) |
| 13:20:00 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: concat<$>[ can be shortened to [concat |
| 13:20:15 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I know, but you ain't going to implement .&. in less than that import costs |
| 13:21:39 | <int-e> | . o O ( more like Data.Nits ) |
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| 13:28:23 | <__monty__> | Even if we could golf out .&., it wouldn't be faithful to the blog anymore. |
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| 13:38:45 | <Leary> | %% putStrLn.unlines$[0..31]<&> \i->replicate i ' '++do{j<-[0..31-i];["\\/"," "]!!min(i.&.j)1} |
| 13:38:45 | <yahb2> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/mHsRpiqc |
| 13:38:55 | <tomsmeding> | oooo |
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| 13:44:43 | <int-e> | $$ putStr$do i<-[0..31];i`drop`do{j<-[-i..31-i];["\\/"," "]!!min(i.&.j)1}++"\n" |
| 13:44:48 | <int-e> | %% putStr$do i<-[0..31];i`drop`do{j<-[-i..31-i];["\\/"," "]!!min(i.&.j)1}++"\n" |
| 13:44:48 | <yahb2> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kuTDCPQV |
| 13:45:17 | <int-e> | (is that ++"\n" trick applicable to the other one... mm) |
| 13:46:43 | <int-e> | yes and no; `putStr$do i<-[0..31];["█ "!!min(i.&.j)1|j<-[0..31],_<-" "]++"\n"` is the same length |
| 13:46:58 | <tomsmeding> | "╲╱" is nicer |
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| 13:47:48 | <int-e> | sure. |
| 13:48:04 | <tomsmeding> | haven't been able to find suitable diagonal half filled blocks in unicode |
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| 13:50:37 | <int-e> | yeah I think all Unicode has is ╲╱ and the blocky ▜▛ |
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| 13:52:11 | <tomsmeding> | sm: https://play.haskell.org/saved/tmon1vAt |
| 13:52:58 | <int-e> | tbh the latter looks fairly decent: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/b4Fwo1Sg |
| 13:53:10 | <tomsmeding> | oh that's fair |
| 13:58:21 | <__monty__> | "◥◤" also comes close but not high enough. |
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| 14:14:45 | <__monty__> | The Sierpiński Carpet doesn't reduce as nicely, does it? |
| 14:18:41 | <tomsmeding> | that one seems to be most natural in base 3, which is not something we have available easily |
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| 15:30:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ooh! beautiful |
| 15:31:03 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> what's the difference between https://play.haskell.org and https://haskell-wasm.github.io/ghc-in-browser again ? ghcjs and wasm respectively ? |
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| 15:45:18 | <geekosaur> | doesn't play.haskell.org use regular ghc? it can dump amd64 asm output |
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| 15:49:29 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh.. play is running ghc on the server, not in the browser |
| 15:49:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> right |
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| 19:06:45 | <tomsmeding> | sm: yep! which means you don't have to download a 50 MB wasm payload to use it :p |
| 19:06:56 | tomsmeding | is actually astonished it's just 50MB |
| 19:07:11 | <tomsmeding> | with a full local GHC installation being 2GB |
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| 19:10:08 | <boonochrom> | Oh! Does it mean I downloaded 50MB of wasm the other day when I first tried out GHC-in-browser? :) |
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| 19:11:39 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 19:42:03 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: to be fair, that's really like 5 GHCs in one :p |
| 19:42:15 | <tomsmeding> | is it? |
| 19:42:38 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: all the different flavours are shipped together |
| 19:42:49 | <merijn> | static, static + profiling, dynamic, dynamic + profiling |
| 19:43:01 | <tomsmeding> | isn't there tremendous overlap between them? |
| 19:43:15 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: all of base exists once per flavour |
| 19:43:15 | <tomsmeding> | why would I need a completely separate GHC to be able to compile with profiling? |
| 19:43:20 | <tomsmeding> | oh the libraries, right |
| 19:43:56 | <merijn> | the RTS has all of those and then also debug flavour |
| 19:44:18 | <merijn> | there's A LOT of duplication and in the absence of linking being a thing at all in wasm you can collapse a lot of that |
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| 19:45:09 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: though libHSghc-9.8.4-c895.a is 272 MB on my system |
| 19:45:15 | <tomsmeding> | that's just one flavour |
| 19:45:35 | <tomsmeding> | (the .p_a is 447 MB, yes) |
| 19:45:57 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Oh, I forgot mentioning you ship "GHC-as-library" in all flavours too :p |
| 19:46:14 | <tomsmeding> | > 50 / 272 |
| 19:46:16 | <lambdabot> | 0.18382352941176472 |
| 19:46:26 | <tomsmeding> | which 82% of GHC does the wasm playground get to cut? |
| 19:47:23 | <merijn> | Well, presumably literally all of the GC and multi-threading? :p |
| 19:47:37 | <boonochrom> | I fear that RTS also has to have those 4 flavours. |
| 19:47:56 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Also, don't forget debug symbols |
| 19:48:32 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: okay very good point, stripping that .a yields 124 MB |
| 19:48:54 | <boonochrom> | OK OK GHC-in-browser probably can choose just one flavour and stick to it. |
| 19:49:00 | <tomsmeding> | still, cutting >50% still seems much |
| 19:49:59 | <boonochrom> | Some years ago someone in the local Haskell group eventually suggested "use a standard exe compressor" >:) |
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| 19:50:47 | <tomsmeding> | ghc-in-browser only needs to do bytecode interpretation; not sure if the process is smart enough to cut the native code generator, but it could in principle |
| 19:51:14 | <tomsmeding> | maybe GC + some of the RTS + native codegen starts being sizeable? |
| 19:51:51 | <tomsmeding> | my GHC 9.12 is actually 3.6 GB |
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| 19:52:52 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ouch |
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| 19:57:23 | <merijn> | sm: I mean, that's still nothing compared to clang |
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| 19:57:42 | <merijn> | Which is like a solid 6.5 GB and that's not even with all bells and whistles |
| 19:59:44 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: I happen to have a full install of clang 15 here in a prefix directory, and it's 584 MB |
| 19:59:56 | <tomsmeding> | yes, clang 15 is old, but it hasn't become 6.5 MB in a few years |
| 20:00:03 | <tomsmeding> | s/MB/GB/ |
| 20:00:16 | <tomsmeding> | (yes, the build directory is 11 GB) |
| 20:00:59 | <tomsmeding> | though you're right that 584 is larger than 124 |
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| 20:02:30 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I have a full install in my homedir (multiple actually) and the smallest is 5GB |
| 20:02:41 | <tomsmeding> | 1. rip your disk |
| 20:02:56 | <tomsmeding> | 2. apparently you have many more bells 'n whistles enabled than I have |
| 20:02:56 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Just clang or clang++ too? |
| 20:03:09 | <tomsmeding> | this is just clang, though with the NVPTX backend, I think |
| 20:03:27 | <tomsmeding> | oh no there's clang++ too |
| 20:03:46 | <tomsmeding> | and all the llvm-* tools, though I expect they share most of the code with clang |
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