Logs on 2025-11-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:03:09 | ← | anselmschueler parts (~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) () |
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| 00:40:49 | × | Googulator88 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-8127-ba79-55a7-6f29.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 01:43:55 | → | DetourNe- joins (DetourNetw@user/DetourNetworkUK) |
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| 13:54:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> yesod-auth-hashdb is marked as broken in latest nixos-unstable. Huh |
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| 13:56:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> "test/TestSite.hs:134:18": "Ambiguous occurrence ‘show’.", apparently |
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| 14:07:47 | <tomsmeding> | unqualified unfiltered import of Data.Text, surely |
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| 14:08:47 | <tomsmeding> | Morj: text-2.1.2 added 'show' to Data.Text |
| 14:11:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yeah I just suffered a mandela effect and thought it was there forever |
| 14:12:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Also another data point to why you should always do import lists |
| 14:12:39 | <tomsmeding> | this particular change to Data.Text produced an array of breakage all across the ecosystem; far from all packages were affected, naturally, because most people import Data.Text qualified as they should, but some were, naturally, because some people doin't |
| 14:12:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Oh cool, and it's not show :: Text -> String, it's a -> Text |
| 14:12:51 | <int-e> | Data.Text clashes so pervasively that you should really import is qualified |
| 14:13:02 | <tomsmeding> | it even says so in the _package_ description, not even in the module description |
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| 14:13:20 | <tomsmeding> | (well, also in the module description, of course) |
| 14:13:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Also yes, how didn't they experience ambiguity with length and null and everything else |
| 14:13:45 | <tomsmeding> | they just happened to not use those functions |
| 14:14:09 | <tomsmeding> | a different perspective on this event is that it's great that GHC raises an error when ambiguous references are encountered, instead of just picking one |
| 14:14:24 | <int-e> | it worked because yesod is its own DSL, essentially. But they worked outside the sandbox here: https://github.com/paul-rouse/yesod-auth-hashdb/blob/master/test/TestSite.hs#L136 |
| 14:14:35 | <tomsmeding> | because now you _can_ actually just `import Data.Text` and live on the edge; your code will just cease compiling when things change |
| 14:14:49 | <int-e> | s/worked/stepped/ (nicer image that way) |
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| 14:16:24 | <int-e> | (heck maybe either `show` would work there, surely the template injects some type class method that converts the result to HTML and is implemented for both Text and String) |
| 14:16:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> BTW all my life I've only used yesod and servant (and happstack once). What other framework should I try? Any cool newcomers? |
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| 15:08:56 | <EvanR> | show = pack . P.show |
| 15:09:36 | <EvanR> | mmkay |
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| 15:10:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I did hope a little that it would be more optimal, but this is exactly the same as my current situation with tshow |
| 15:11:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It's hard to do otherwise when Show is in base, and text isn't |
| 15:11:35 | <EvanR> | "optimality" aside my first thought was is this expanding the encouraged uses cases for Show |
| 15:12:22 | <EvanR> | since Text is more serious and String is often used for informal / throw away / demonstration code |
| 15:12:34 | <EvanR> | and Show is for "debugging" |
| 15:13:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Interesting point. But a lot of logging uses Text as well, so one might think it's just a quality of life improvement |
| 15:13:40 | tomsmeding | . o O ( Show/Read is a perfectly viable file format ) |
| 15:13:46 | <tomsmeding> | (actually no it isn't) |
| 15:14:02 | <EvanR> | haha yeah |
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| 15:14:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I'm almost sure you can't read HashMap's show (= |
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| 15:14:50 | <EvanR> | it comes out like fromList [(k1,v1),(k2,v2),...] |
| 15:14:55 | <EvanR> | right |
| 15:15:07 | <tomsmeding> | what's the problem? |
| 15:15:10 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers-0.2.20.1/docs/src/Data.HashMap.Internal.html#line-381 |
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| 15:16:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Oh it does skip fromList? I'm almost sure this wasn't the case =) |
| 15:16:25 | <tomsmeding> | that would've been a bug then :p |
| 15:16:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> *the case in the past |
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| 15:24:03 | <EvanR> | "skip" ? |
| 15:24:49 | <EvanR> | requires "fromList" then applies fromList |
| 15:25:02 | <EvanR> | to the rest |
| 15:26:01 | <EvanR> | so the text version of the value appears like a legitimate expression which would compute it |
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| 16:19:09 | <SrPx> | it is really annoying that there is no way in Haskell to create a map from Int to a user-defined ADT that 1. indexing is O(1) and as fast as array, 2. has O(1) initialization. in C, we can mmap an array of pointers and achieve that just fine. in Haskell, native arrays have O(N) initialization and O(1) indexing, and IntMap has O(1) initialization but O(log(N)) indexing... |
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| 16:37:17 | <EvanR> | SrPx, off the top of my head, if you stored an array in a compact region, serialized it and static linked it into the exe, then used FFI to get it and restore it as a region |
| 16:37:59 | <EvanR> | not sure how IntMap has "O(1)" initialization |
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| 16:42:29 | <acarrico> | In emacs, in the dante minor-mode source code, C-c C-c is bound to 'dante-exec, but in my buffer it is bound to haskell-process-cabal-build (from haskell-mode). I thought that the minor mode binding should trump the major mode, no? |
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| 17:05:13 | <int-e> | EvanR: for that use case you can start out with an empty map. |
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| 17:05:46 | <int-e> | mmap being O(1) should be questioned also |
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| 17:07:43 | <EvanR> | O(1) program start time |
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| 18:07:21 | <monochrom> | There is an mmap binding on hackage. |
| 18:07:34 | <monochrom> | But C is an unfair example because C has no ADT. |
| 18:08:03 | <monochrom> | Also because mmap is OS-specific, not part of C. |
| 18:08:31 | <monochrom> | (In Mac Classic, the language would be Pascal.) |
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| 18:11:48 | <monochrom> | vector has an "O(1)" "initialization" too when you don't mind array content starting as arbitrary. |
| 18:12:27 | <monochrom> | I'm sorry but it's against my ethics to call it "initialization". I can only call it allocation. |
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| 18:37:32 | <SrPx> | but it wouldn't work with haskell pointers right |
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| 18:48:25 | <int-e> | What is a "Haskell pointer"? (There's nothing in the language that prevents you from having an array type with optional entries with absence represented by 0 words; it's a matter of runtime support) |
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| 18:53:33 | <int-e> | I think it's less that Haskell can't have it and more that if you worry about performance at this level, you're *probably* not using Haskell for your project anyway because garbage collection is another big costly thing that'll cause you trouble. |
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| 19:51:57 | <EvanR> | O(0) uninitialization |
| 19:55:09 | <EvanR> | does anyone know what specific algorithm the Show instance for Float and Double use, I know there's been a few in the past few decades |
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| 20:05:33 | <int-e> | EvanR: Looks like this at the core: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/ghc-internal/src/GHC/Internal/Float.hs?ref_type=heads#L1100-1206 |
| 20:07:24 | <EvanR> | amazing |
| 20:08:13 | <int-e> | (almost all integer arithmetic, so no dragon/grisu influence) |
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| 20:11:15 | <EvanR> | interesting remark about long double |
| 20:11:24 | <EvanR> | which we still don't have right |
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| 22:25:54 | <dpk> | haskell.org SSL certificate is expired 🧐 |
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| 22:29:18 | <EvanR> | for me it says valid not after Thu, 15 Jan 2026 15:59:00 GMT |
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| 22:35:03 | <geekosaur> | same here |
| 22:35:12 | <geekosaur> | dpk, what browser and platform? |
| 22:35:44 | <dpk> | Firefox, Mac OS, Vodafone Germany |
| 22:36:37 | <dpk> | hmm, i think the problem may be limited to haskell.org without the www. |
| 22:36:52 | <geekosaur> | that's what I tried here |
| 22:37:07 | <geekosaur> | (I rarely bother with the "www." any more |
| 22:37:10 | <dpk> | usually the non-www. version redirects (presumably without touching HTTPS yet), but i found an old link that didn’t |
| 22:37:10 | <geekosaur> | ) |
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| 22:37:17 | <dpk> | i think |
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| 22:37:42 | <geekosaur> | no, I landed on https://haskell.org |
| 22:37:45 | <dpk> | try entering this link: http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html#t:Functor |
| 22:37:48 | <geekosaur> | no redirect |
| 22:37:49 | <EvanR> | my firefox does flag haskell.org |
| 22:37:54 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 22:37:59 | <EvanR> | when typed exactly |
| 22:38:25 | <geekosaur> | it did remove a trailing / I forgot to remove when my browser autocompleted to haskell.org/ghc |
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| 22:39:12 | <geekosaur> | oh, that'll be different, there's some magic redirection going on |
| 22:39:27 | <EvanR> | also for haskell.org/ghc |
| 22:39:33 | <geekosaur> | all those pages got moved to haskell-content.haskell.org or something like that |
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| 22:41:30 | <geekosaur> | in any case I'm sending this to the infrastructure team. dunno if anyone's around right now to deal with it though |
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| 23:42:11 | <tccq> | Anyone know of a C compiler in simple haskell? I see some educational resources but nothing that looks super usable / better than doing it from scratch myself |
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| 23:44:06 | <glguy> | I'm not aware of anyone talking about one |
| 23:45:25 | <tccq> | I'll grant it's a tad backwards |
| 23:46:12 | <tccq> | but my thought it to have a 2 step bootstrap loop of haskell->C (unknown) and C->haskell (Microhaskell) |
| 23:46:26 | <tccq> | much nicer than writing a 1 step in either |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-11-08.