Logs on 2025-11-11 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:10:07 | <Sidney> | Hi, I am trying to learn how to think in the Haskell way (I don't know the precise term), but I am having difficultly solving leetcode problem which require stateful operations such as problems which requires the two pointers technique. Is there pattern/mindset to solve inherently stateful problems elegantly and with good time complexity? I tried |
| 00:10:07 | <Sidney> | recursion but I does not feel like the right tool. Thanks! |
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| 00:15:27 | <L29Ah> | Sidney: there's ST if you find you want to have a state for efficiency in your black-boxable algorithm |
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| 00:35:07 | <mange> | While Haskell has ST and the like, if you're trying to think "in the Haskell way" then you probably don't want to be using ST. |
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| 00:41:31 | <EvanR> | Sidney, if the algorithm specifically calls for something like an array of A and numerical indexes, you can pretty easily translate that to a Map Int A and some Ints |
| 00:41:57 | <EvanR> | (or IntMap A) |
| 00:43:04 | <EvanR> | for the stateful part, there are several ways to "keep the current state", whatever it is. E.g. pass the latest values to a recursive function which stands for the loop body |
| 00:44:43 | <EvanR> | another way is to use a State monad, there are other ways |
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| 00:49:18 | <jreicher> | Sidney: what do you need stateful operations for? (Really this is just a polite way for met to ask, are you really really sure you need stateful operations? You might be wrong, and if you're wrong, it's easier to do things without them.) |
| 00:52:27 | <mange> | In general I would say "the Haskell way" is to avoid state, and to think about functional transformations/reductions instead. Even if it's possible to write programs with state in Haskell, you're usually going against the grain of the language. |
| 00:59:57 | <Sidney> | I agree, I don't want to use stateful operations. I'm missing something because I don't see an alternate. For example `move zeros` (https://leetcode.com/problems/move-zeroes/description/) requires constant space complexity and I don't how `two sum` (https://leetcode.com/problems/two-sum/description/) could be solved with less than O(N^2) time |
| 00:59:58 | <Sidney> | complexity without a for loop and a hash table. |
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| 01:19:28 | <mange> | Sidney: You can use recursion, building up a hash table as you go. The two sum problem, for instance, could be like this: http://paste.debian.net/1405577/ (I'm using Map because it was easier, but you can see the idea). |
| 01:20:26 | <mange> | The move zeros one you linked to is explicitly about mutating an array, so obviously you can't do that without mutation. |
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| 01:23:58 | <mange> | Oh, wait, sorry, I misread your message. You don't want to use a hash table. That makes sense. |
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| 01:28:17 | <int-e> | sorting can help with two-sum |
| 01:30:36 | <int-e> | > let (xs,ys) = partition (/= 0) [0,1,0,3,12] in xs ++ ys -- yes it's not in-place, but whatever |
| 01:30:37 | <lambdabot> | [1,3,12,0,0] |
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| 01:40:27 | <jreicher> | two-sum doesn't have to be in-place I think. So you can ignore the "array" part and just think in terms of lists. |
| 01:40:43 | <monochrom> | partition is probably still constant-space and linear-time. |
| 01:40:58 | <mange> | Sidney: still not in-place (because it would require changing the input), but this should solve the two-sum problem by iterating through the list in both directions: http://paste.debian.net/1405581/ |
| 01:41:07 | <mange> | ... After sorting it, that is. |
| 01:41:31 | <int-e> | jreicher: yes, but the code snippet was for move-zeroes |
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| 01:42:04 | <Sidney> | Okay, thank you for the help. |
| 01:42:05 | <Sidney> | Regarding two-pointer questions: is it possible to use recursion to get a single pass with the left and right pointers as function parameters? |
| 01:42:05 | <Sidney> | I tried to solve the "Best Time to Buy and Sell Stock" problem (https://leetcode.com/problems/best-time-to-buy-and-sell-stock/description/) using a fold to calculate the profit each day, but that resulted in O(n²) complexity because I needed to calculate the maximum value for the remainder of the collection. Lastly I have heard some people say |
| 01:42:06 | <Sidney> | that some things are 'inherently stateful' so functional programming is not capable of solving the problem elegantly. Is that true? It seems arbitrary that a `for loop` is the only tool that can solve these problems compared behaviors in mathematics such as recursion but I am ignorant and would like to know what you have to say. |
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| 01:42:25 | <monochrom> | "in-place" is an over-specification. Externally you can only observe space growth or lack-of, not how it is achieved. |
| 01:42:27 | <EvanR> | whether you are using explicit recursion or a folding combinator or whatever it's still stateful in spirit |
| 01:42:51 | <int-e> | mange: well those indices are wrong, because sorting changes the order of things |
| 01:42:52 | <EvanR> | actually "state" is heavily overloaded and can mean many things |
| 01:43:11 | <int-e> | mange: reconstructing indices makes this a tad annoying |
| 01:43:13 | <jreicher> | Sidney: coincidentally I recently watched this. https://youtu.be/QNM-njddhIw?t=970&si=tWEcEVmsr44nKlVs |
| 01:43:19 | <EvanR> | Sidney, yeah, that's incorrect |
| 01:43:27 | <mange> | Oh yeah, obviously! Thanks int-e. I'm not going to fix it, because I can't be bothered right now. |
| 01:43:29 | <jreicher> | The middle of that section of the video covers something very similar to move-zeroes |
| 01:43:45 | <int-e> | mange: That's okay :P |
| 01:44:33 | <int-e> | mange: FWIW, I'd probably just search for the found elements in the original list. |
| 01:44:56 | <int-e> | :t findIndex |
| 01:44:57 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe Int |
| 01:45:10 | <int-e> | :t elemIndex |
| 01:45:12 | <lambdabot> | Eq a => a -> [a] -> Maybe Int |
| 01:45:40 | <EvanR> | there's much less difference between mutating an array and updating a Map than you think there is. There much less difference between a recursive program and a for loop than you think there is |
| 01:45:51 | <jreicher> | Sidney: In my opinion (and not everyone will agree with this I think) even if you write "statelessly", the computation is still stateful. That's never in doubt. A computer executes in the real world by changing state moment to moment. So the question is not whether you have state, but whether you have to write it explicitly or whether the language (Haskell) can figure it out for you. A lot of the time it can. |
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| 01:47:38 | <EvanR> | folding over a list of things using "a state" accomplishes the same thing as looping over the things and mutating variables |
| 01:47:52 | <monochrom> | I feel like "there is no royal road" applies. How to think in French? By immersing in French for weeks, months, years. How to think in Japanese? By immersing in Japanese for weeks, months, years. How to think in Haskell? By immersing... you get my point. |
| 01:47:56 | <EvanR> | sometimes it's more convenient sometimes it's not |
| 01:48:30 | <EvanR> | yes keep writing programs (and reading programs) |
| 01:48:57 | <monochrom> | But I do tell my students: Think of Haskell functions as math functions, not C "functions". Think algebra. |
| 01:50:05 | <EvanR> | ^ this very good advice has no effect on people who hate math |
| 01:50:38 | <monochrom> | Oh if you hate math, there is nothing in Haskell for you. |
| 01:50:45 | <EvanR> | though maybe subjecting them to enough haskell gives them a better appreciation for mathematical thinking |
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| 01:51:56 | int-e | wonders when he last used the term "procedure" for an imperative "function". |
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| 01:52:17 | <monochrom> | We should do that more! |
| 01:52:27 | <int-e> | (A Pascal remnant, though Pascal's distinction based on whether a function returns a value or not is odd too.) |
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| 01:52:51 | <monochrom> | If foo :: IO Int, what do you call foo, i.e., what is the name of the kind of things like foo? Answer: procedure. |
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| 01:53:07 | <int-e> | And sorry, I believe "function" is too ingrained in my brain by now. |
| 01:53:18 | <int-e> | It's an overloaded concept, one of many. |
| 01:54:00 | <monochrom> | The Algol people got it wrong in the first place. They said "side-effecting functions" [sic], just because there is a "return value". |
| 01:54:56 | <EvanR> | returning a value was undervalued all the way even until ruby |
| 01:55:07 | <monochrom> | If the null pointer was a billion-dollar mistake, I invoke Sapir-Worf and call that a priceless mistake. |
| 01:55:09 | <EvanR> | so many forms in ruby return nothing useful and so can't be combined |
| 01:55:34 | <int-e> | EvanR: can't wait for the paper on the trillion-dollar mistake in about 50 years |
| 01:55:53 | <EvanR> | the 1 TRILLION dollar mistake *crowd laughs* |
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| 01:56:41 | <int-e> | (adjusted for inflation relative to 2025) |
| 01:56:59 | <int-e> | (and possibly new currencies) |
| 01:57:23 | <EvanR> | or old currencies, because the euro was abandoned |
| 02:01:00 | <jreicher> | monochrom: I think Haskell functions are a third kind of function. Math functions are often (infinite) sets. Haskell functions describe a construction of the set, which is a little. But they do it declarative, which is why they're not like C functions. |
| 02:01:11 | <jreicher> | ...a little different... |
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| 02:01:46 | <monochrom> | About many ruby forms can't be combined. Yeah even the javascript community discovered long ago that if an object method returns the object itself, then you can write obj.method1().method2().method3(), it's pretty neat. |
| 02:03:37 | <int-e> | jreicher: I think the point is that math functions are a better model for what Haskell functions are than C functions. |
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| 02:04:13 | <int-e> | (they do a decent job capturing purity) |
| 02:05:20 | <jreicher> | No argument with that, but there are still problems with the math model. You can define a non-computable function mathematically. |
| 02:05:43 | <int-e> | I didn't say that you're wrong (you aren't) |
| 02:05:57 | <monochrom> | No worries. I say "think math functions, algebra" to students who are too used to imperative thinking. They already can't escaping thinking of recipes for explicit construction. So telling them "like algebra" will get the right result. |
| 02:06:01 | <int-e> | monochrom's teaching this stuff |
| 02:06:30 | <jreicher> | monochrom: do you teach Haskell, or some of the other languages and/or lambda calculus/semantics? |
| 02:06:53 | <int-e> | And it's common that you use flawed analogies for new concepts when teaching. |
| 02:06:56 | <monochrom> | For students who are too used to pure math, especially the non-constructive one, I will have to bias them towards more explicit construction, even constructivism, yeah. |
| 02:07:14 | <jreicher> | It cheers me even that those words might enter the classroom. |
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| 02:09:40 | <monochrom> | I teach basic Haskell and basic Curry. And some PL topics, e.g., grammars, parsing, type inference, parametricity. |
| 02:10:04 | <monochrom> | Actually this! https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-latest/ |
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| 02:13:28 | <jreicher> | Thanks for the link! |
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| 02:26:35 | <jreicher> | What's the current implementation of delimited continuations in Haskell? Is it CC-delcont? |
| 02:28:24 | <jreicher> | I thought there were ghc primops for them now... |
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| 02:31:17 | <geekosaur> | there are, but they have some limitations (for example, they have to be used in IO) |
| 02:32:32 | <jreicher> | Do you know what happens if there's a different prompt between a control and its matching prompt? I imagine that "foreign" prompt is captured, but I wouldn't mind finding an explicit discussion of that case. |
| 02:32:53 | <jreicher> | (I should rewatch Alex King's talk, probably) |
| 02:32:56 | <jreicher> | Alexis |
| 02:33:25 | <Leary> | Of course, it's captured. |
| 02:33:48 | <monochrom> | Captured in the middle. The control searches for the matching prompt, captures everything between now and that. |
| 02:34:36 | <EvanR> | jreicher, a function is not always implemented as a set in math |
| 02:35:13 | <Leary> | jreicher: You might be interested in my (as yet unpublished) https://github.com/LSLeary/native-cont library; it provides a safe non-IO interface to the primops. |
| 02:35:14 | <jreicher> | monochrom: yeah, that's what I expected. Can't shake the feeling it deserves explicit discussion, but maybe not. |
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| 02:35:42 | <EvanR> | e.g. it could be implemented as a relation plus the functional condition, where relations are primitive |
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| 02:35:45 | <jreicher> | Leary: yes, thank you. |
| 02:35:58 | <EvanR> | it could even be abstractified using category theory |
| 02:36:21 | <jreicher> | EvanR: true, but I think even for relations I've seen more set-theoretic presentations than not. |
| 02:36:31 | <EvanR> | which gives haskell room to call functions functions |
| 02:36:35 | <monochrom> | Oh, type theory says functions are primitive. :) |
| 02:37:27 | <jreicher> | I'm tempted to say that's because the type theory doesn't need to know the details... ;) |
| 02:37:42 | <EvanR> | the structural set theory with sets elements and relations gets closer to type theory by emphasizing the domain and codomain of functions (relations) as the important part |
| 02:37:56 | <EvanR> | instead of the implementation |
| 02:38:58 | <EvanR> | even in "normal math" you really rarely care about what a function "really is" |
| 02:39:49 | <EvanR> | even in normal programming, you rarely care about what an array "really is", hence the big O 1 array myth |
| 02:40:10 | <monochrom> | Hell, s/array/hash table/g |
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| 02:40:29 | monochrom | is looking at Python and Perl. |
| 02:41:38 | <EvanR> | so perl and PHP were justified in calling their hashtable "array" xD |
| 02:42:31 | <geekosaur> | perl didn't call it array, @x is not %x |
| 02:42:42 | <geekosaur> | they called it list |
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| 02:44:09 | <EvanR> | oh list is a hashtable? |
| 02:44:20 | <EvanR> | even better |
| 02:44:31 | <monochrom> | What have I done?! >:) |
| 02:45:02 | <geekosaur> | you're still stuck somewhere insane |
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| 02:45:15 | <geekosaur> | there are three types: scalar, list, hash |
| 02:46:11 | <geekosaur> | you would not normally use a hash as a list unless it's sparse |
| 02:47:00 | <jreicher> | I thought the original sin belonged to awk? |
| 02:47:07 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 02:47:19 | <jreicher> | Personally I'm a fan of that bad boy. |
| 02:47:37 | <geekosaur> | awk doesn't have arrays/lists, so you use its "associative arrays" as if they were |
| 02:47:39 | <monochrom> | No no no, the original sin belonged to BASIC and Lisp. Yes I'm putting them on the same line. |
| 02:48:03 | <monochrom> | Lisp: Every name has two independent bindings: value and function. |
| 02:48:16 | <monochrom> | BASIC: Every name has two independent bindings: number and string. |
| 02:48:17 | <jreicher> | That's Lisp-2. Lisp-1 is not like that |
| 02:48:50 | <monochrom> | Criminals. |
| 02:49:14 | <EvanR> | every [capitalized] name has two independent bindings, type and constructor |
| 02:49:32 | <geekosaur> | module name/qualifier |
| 02:49:33 | <EvanR> | shoot |
| 02:49:46 | <EvanR> | up to three |
| 02:50:11 | <jreicher> | The thing that really broke my brain when I looked at Lisp (after doing functional) is that there isn't an implicit eval of an expression in head possition. |
| 02:50:14 | <geekosaur> | and patsyns |
| 02:50:18 | <jreicher> | Took me ages to unlearn that expectation |
| 02:50:21 | <geekosaur> | typeclasses |
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| 03:02:30 | <EvanR> | also haskell has "infinite sets" (types with infinite inhabitants) so that's not a deal breaker |
| 03:02:47 | <jreicher> | Are they only denumerable? |
| 03:03:12 | <EvanR> | depends on your metatheory? |
| 03:04:18 | <EvanR> | if you tried to form a list of all Sequence of Bool, you'd fail to list them all |
| 03:05:08 | <EvanR> | diagonalization could be used to construct a missed sequence |
| 03:05:32 | <EvanR> | I meant Stream of Bool |
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| 03:06:19 | <jreicher> | That's why I was asking about what haskell is representing with these "infinite sets". |
| 03:06:48 | <EvanR> | I saw a constructive notion of "uncountable" floating around called "sequence avoiding" set, maybe could be repurposed for types |
| 03:07:41 | <jreicher> | It can be countable but still not recursive. That's the really surprising case IMO. |
| 03:08:04 | <EvanR> | for all streams of A, say xs, there exists an x such that for all i, x "does not equal" xs !! i |
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| 03:09:55 | <EvanR> | then A is sequence avoiding |
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| 03:13:10 | <EvanR> | A = Stream Bool would satisfy this using diagonalization to prove the existence part, if you could somehow get the "does not equal" to make sense |
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| 04:32:21 | <Square2> | I'm going to give a talk at my company about Haskell to inspire some people to learn it, cause we'll be needing it for a DSL library. How would you pitch Haskell to middle age people that might not be you most curious programmers? |
| 04:32:48 | <Square2> | be your* |
| 04:33:21 | <mange> | What DSL library are you using that needs Haskell, if you're not already using Haskell? |
| 04:34:22 | <jreicher> | Square2: what language(s) do they already know? |
| 04:34:26 | <Square2> | It's a DSL written in Haskell. It's not in production yet. |
| 04:34:34 | <Square2> | jreicher, java |
| 04:34:46 | <jreicher> | "Impossible to have a null pointer exception" |
| 04:35:00 | <Square2> | That's a good one! |
| 04:35:20 | <jreicher> | This I would not repeat, but it's how I think about this stuff... |
| 04:36:02 | <jreicher> | What garbage collection did for memory management, pure functional languages do for every aspect of data structure management. So the entire class of reference-management mistakes get eliminated. Null references is the most common of those. |
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| 04:38:45 | <jreicher> | The type system SHOULD be a selling point for Haskell too, but I'm not sure it is. |
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| 04:39:19 | <Square2> | Personally I feel learning Haskell was a milestone of my work life. Wo exaggerating. It made me better creating programs I wanted and also gave me a better sense of what is possible (and what's not) when it comes to modeling. |
| 04:39:47 | <Square2> | But I guess that's a bit vague. |
| 04:40:26 | <jreicher> | Does your audience care about being better at creating programs? (I know that's a cynical question.) |
| 04:41:13 | <geekosaur> | "writing code with fewer bugs" |
| 04:42:00 | <Square2> | It's not your worst devs, but some are definitely more interested in the daily coffee break than learning new things. |
| 04:42:04 | <jreicher> | Not all programmers do, unfortunately. And even worse, not all jobs require it. |
| 04:42:38 | <Square2> | geekosaur, good point. Sleep better. I actually already had that in my list. |
| 04:42:56 | <Square2> | ...or less stress, imho. |
| 04:43:24 | <geekosaur> | more time writing code, less time debugging |
| 04:43:39 | <geekosaur> | (doesn't work if they can push debugging off onto the junior in the group…) |
| 04:46:49 | <jreicher> | Square2: if you can find a way to describe the composability of Haskell then they might see how much more reuse you can get out of existing code. That appeals to lazy (in a good way) programmers. |
| 04:48:08 | geekosaur | suddenly wonders f we could adopt or mangle lwall's triptych |
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| 04:58:43 | <Square2> | jreicher, Great point. I semi had that in my list. |
| 04:58:59 | <Square2> | thank you all for your input appreciated |
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| 05:00:32 | <Leary> | Square2: See what you can steal from the OG: John Hughes's "Why Functional Programming Matters" |
| 05:02:35 | <Square2> | Leary, this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGQAP0GxlW8 ? |
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| 05:05:01 | <Leary> | There's an old paper, and various versions of the talk. If you're going to watch one of the talks, best to pick the most recent you can find. |
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| 05:22:37 | <fgarcia> | pitching haskell? :O one that could be nice is supporting both prefix and infix notation |
| 05:22:58 | <fgarcia> | pattern matching is amazing as well |
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| 05:30:27 | <jreicher> | Java is getting pattern matching. :) |
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| 05:42:31 | <EvanR> | I know, tell them how you can define arbitrary brand new operators |
| 05:42:38 | <EvanR> | everybody loves that |
| 05:48:36 | <Square2> | Everyone's nostalgic from learning C++? =D |
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| 05:50:20 | <jreicher> | I miss having a compiler I can crash |
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| 07:07:50 | <dibblego> | data X f a b = X (a, f b) -- what is X? |
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| 07:34:25 | <jreicher> | I think this is what I was after earlier https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.13.0/docs/GHC-Prim.html#g:24 |
| 07:34:35 | <jreicher> | dibblego: what's the context for your question? Where did that snippet come from? |
| 07:34:57 | <dibblego> | I made it up, I want the data type X from a library |
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| 07:39:22 | <jreicher> | I think the answer might be X can be anything then? I'm not sure I understand the question... |
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| 07:43:11 | <dibblego> | found it, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/comonad-5.0.9/docs/Control-Comonad-Trans-Env.html#t:EnvT |
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| 10:46:44 | <kuribas> | Haskell typelevel is this weird combination of untyped prolog, intricacies of type classes, and ad hoc extensions (generics, TH). |
| 10:47:14 | <merijn> | kuribas: I don't think TH really counts as type level? |
| 10:48:27 | <kuribas> | merijn: generating types, freemonads, lenses. |
| 10:49:00 | <kuribas> | Not necessarily type level, but usually there to avoid the boilerplate that comes with haskell type level stuff. |
| 10:49:23 | <kuribas> | I usually go with generics, but they have a big compile time cost. |
| 10:49:32 | <kuribas> | And possibly runtime as well. |
| 10:51:43 | <kuribas> | Then again, type level programming in other languages is strictly worse. |
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| 10:51:50 | <kuribas> | Python, Typescript. |
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| 10:53:39 | <kuribas> | I just feel dependent types are the logical conclusion of any advanced type system. |
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| 11:03:17 | <merijn> | Those bring a lot of disadvantages too |
| 11:03:25 | <merijn> | So I'm not yet convinced that's what I want |
| 11:03:34 | <merijn> | You know what I do want? |
| 11:03:52 | <merijn> | I want my damn rowtype polymorhpism in a production language! >.< |
| 11:04:04 | <merijn> | Ideally one not as niche and obscure as Ur/Web |
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| 11:05:42 | <kuribas> | merijn: typescript? |
| 11:06:34 | <merijn> | typescript doesn't have row type polymorphism |
| 11:06:56 | <merijn> | typescript just does structural subtyping |
| 11:07:03 | <merijn> | Which is, like, the opposite of what I want |
| 11:07:20 | <merijn> | The entire point of rowtype polymorphism is to have structural subtyping that doesn't suck |
| 11:07:40 | <merijn> | So I don't have to think about covariance/contravariance |
| 11:08:37 | <kuribas> | purescript then? |
| 11:08:37 | <merijn> | Especially since subtyping ruins all good things |
| 11:09:02 | <arahael> | I'd just be happy having sum types. |
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| 11:09:20 | <arahael> | Still annoyed I can't tell C# that the enums I have should only be defined for the values they're specified for. |
| 11:09:34 | <merijn> | Purescript does have rowtype polymorphism, but compiling to JS means I can't practically use it |
| 11:10:51 | <jreicher> | kuribas: I don't think there's any "logical conclusion" to a type system. A type system is whatever assertions you want the compiler to check for you, in which case you need to be able to express the assertions, and you need the system to be able to check them. |
| 11:11:14 | <jreicher> | I think that will always be a moving target. |
| 11:11:39 | <kuribas> | jreicher: yes, but they always explode in complexity. |
| 11:11:49 | <kuribas> | Lookup at python types. And you don't even have hkts. |
| 11:12:11 | <kuribas> | Which is somewhat mitigated with subtypes. |
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| 11:12:47 | <mreh> | Do associated types in a Constraint also imply their typeclass? I guess they would have to. |
| 11:13:43 | <mreh> | e.g. `Enum (AssociatedType t) => ...` |
| 11:14:04 | <kuribas> | mreh: yes |
| 11:14:30 | <kuribas> | mreh: constraints, are only checked after resolving the instances. |
| 11:15:15 | <kuribas> | in a class or instance definition I mean. |
| 11:16:29 | <kuribas> | mreh: so "class Eq a => Ord a", means everytime you use "Ord a", it implies "Eq a". |
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| 11:17:36 | <kuribas> | mreh: "Eq a" isn't even checked when resolving the instance, if it resolves to "Ord a", then "Eq a" must be met, or it is a type error. |
| 11:21:33 | <mreh> | I think you misunderstand. |
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| 11:22:20 | <kuribas> | What do you mean then? |
| 11:22:29 | <mreh> | I haven't told GHC to look for the typeclass that AssociatedType is from. |
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| 11:22:40 | <mreh> | But I guess it works it out. |
| 11:22:53 | <kuribas> | mreh: You mean it's a type family inside a typeclass? |
| 11:22:53 | <mreh> | Is that what you thought I meant? |
| 11:23:06 | <mreh> | kuribas: yeah, isn't that called an "associated type"? |
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| 11:24:01 | <kuribas> | idk |
| 11:24:31 | <mreh> | it was just a little unexpected, |
| 11:24:36 | <mreh> | to see GHC do that |
| 11:25:08 | <kuribas> | Well, if the type family is inside the class definition, the GHC will know it must be an instance. |
| 11:25:53 | <mreh> | yup |
| 11:26:20 | <kuribas> | Why would that be surprising? |
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| 11:26:37 | <kuribas> | Everything inside the class definition implies the class constraints. |
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| 11:27:07 | <mreh> | I guess because I'm used to supplying contraints when using type class methods |
| 11:27:15 | <mreh> | but that's only when you have an exmplicit type signature |
| 11:28:11 | <mreh> | the associated type is in the type signature already |
| 11:28:25 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Row polymorphism sounds like really unsafe idea. Because you can't be really sure that doing something on a subset of rows of ANY record just because they have particular types will do anything useful. |
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| 11:43:50 | <kuribas> | loonycyborg: It's the same with putting type classes on every possible type. |
| 11:44:06 | <kuribas> | It's easy to get wrong behaviour, since it picks the wrong instance. |
| 11:44:14 | <kuribas> | For example Monad and Applicative on (->) |
| 11:44:47 | <kuribas> | It should not exist, because the few times you need it, you can just wrap ReaderT, and it will be also easier to understand the code. |
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| 14:30:58 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I'm looking for excercises for learning and mastering haskell. I remembered two and I lost both |
| 14:31:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> exercism is good |
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| 14:31:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> There was a popular github repo with several very hard excercises, like «write function that when used with traverse will only go N steps deep into a tree», does anyone remember it? |
| 14:32:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> There was also a whole book for learning haskell, with similar tasks, but more for beginners, and I also forgot its name, would appreciate the guesses |
| 14:33:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://github.com/l-Shane-l/haskell-katas |
| 14:33:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> is another |
| 14:34:48 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://joyful.com/Haskell+map#courses or https://joyful.com/Haskell+map#books might jog the memory |
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| 14:37:28 | <Leary> | Morj: Perhaps https://github.com/effectfully-ou/haskell-challenges |
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| 14:38:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Leary: Thanks, this is the challenges I was thinking about |
| 14:39:16 | <merijn> | @where exercises |
| 14:39:16 | <lambdabot> | http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/H-99:_Ninety-Nine_Haskell_Problems https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/ http://www.reddit.com/r/programmingchallenges/ |
| 14:40:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> sm: Those are the style I'm looking for, but the quality is not great |
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| 14:41:43 | <Zemyla> | So both covariant and contravariant Functors have notions of two different monoids. |
| 14:43:29 | <Zemyla> | class Times f where { one :: f (); times :: f a -> f b -> f (a, b) }; class Plus f where { zero :: f Void; plus :: f a -> f b -> f (Either a b) } |
| 14:44:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> merijn: 99 problems are cool, I'll use them too. But they're lacking lazyness and other haskell-specific things |
| 14:45:09 | <Zemyla> | You'd need a way to witness the isomorphisms ((), a) ~ a ~ (a, ()) and Either Void a ~ a ~ Either a Void, which is difficult to do with both covariant and contravariant functors. |
| 14:46:47 | <Zemyla> | I don't know if this is useful at all, but I'm thinking class Isofunctor f where { isomap :: AnIso' a b -> f a -> f b; (<$>#) :: Coercible a b -> p a b -> f a -> f b; (<$>#) = isomap coerce } |
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| 14:58:24 | <Sidney> | Hi, I asked a few questions here last night but my computer crashed and now I don't have access to the answers I received. They were really high quality, so is there a way I can get access to them? I checked the logs for last night but I did not see any of the conversation. Thanks! |
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| 14:59:31 | <merijn> | Sidney: See the logs in the topic |
| 14:59:52 | <merijn> | ah, you did >.> |
| 15:00:23 | <merijn> | Are you sure you checked the right time? |
| 15:00:49 | <merijn> | Note that the log timestamps are UTC+1, which might differ from wherever you are |
| 15:01:38 | <Sidney> | Okay I will go back and check. Are you saying everything in the IRC is recorded so it should be there? |
| 15:02:00 | <merijn> | Everything in this channel is |
| 15:02:13 | <merijn> | Incidentally, I do see a question from you at 02:42 |
| 15:02:19 | <merijn> | Not sure if that's the one you meant |
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| 15:02:54 | <merijn> | And one earlier at 1:00: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell?id=1693741#trid1693741 |
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| 15:03:39 | <Sidney> | Just found it! Thank you so much |
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| 15:54:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Thanks to links shared above and some googling, I found some really good exercises, but not really any that utilize lazyness meaningfully. Does anyone have tasks specifically for implementing algorithms using lazy evaluation? |
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| 16:02:02 | <merijn> | Morj: I'm not sure if there's any good exercises for that |
| 16:02:03 | <lucabtz> | what does haskellbridge bridge to? |
| 16:02:11 | <merijn> | lucabtz: matrix |
| 16:02:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> To matrix |
| 16:02:21 | <lucabtz> | ah i see |
| 16:03:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Ok, I guess I'll have to put a mental checknote to start gathering real life problems to create a set of such tasks... |
| 16:03:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> But I'm pretty sure I've seen a small set of such when I was studying myself. I just lost it now |
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| 16:07:15 | <merijn> | Morj: You can have a look at the reverse state monad and tardis monads to get your mind broken |
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| 16:55:21 | <Zemyla> | I've got a matrix.org account, but when I try to join the rooms, I can't find them. How do I join? |
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| 17:05:38 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Zemyla : all the haskell rooms can be found under https://matrix.to/#/#haskell-space:matrix.org |
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| 17:24:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Thanks! |
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| 17:30:05 | <geekosaur> | search is disabled on matrix.org still |
| 17:30:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> the matrix.org room directory is still locked to a small subset of rooms, to be precise |
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| 17:45:01 | <EvanR> | trapped in the matrix |
| 17:56:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I hope they'll get it together and open the darn thing by 2026 >:/ |
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| 18:33:58 | <tomsmeding> | should I expend the effort to have the logs be in UTC |
| 18:34:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> How much effort would it be to rewrite old logs? |
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| 18:40:26 | <EvanR> | what timezone are they in now? |
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| 18:48:51 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: whatever my VPS was already in, which is Europe/Amsterdam, which even has DST in summer |
| 18:49:26 | <EvanR> | lovely |
| 18:49:48 | <EvanR> | I vote to convert it to aztec calendar |
| 18:50:15 | <tomsmeding> | and I now see that means that we lose one hour of logs every october? |
| 18:50:22 | <EvanR> | what |
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| 18:50:38 | <EvanR> | you mean if you convert to UTC? |
| 18:50:42 | <sm> | no! atlantean calendar |
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| 18:50:49 | <tomsmeding> | anyway you can see the opposite jump here https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2025/03/30?id=1517022#trid1517022 |
| 18:51:00 | <EvanR> | we lost logs or we will lose logs |
| 18:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | well the logs are still there in the plain znc logs |
| 18:51:14 | <tomsmeding> | but the website drops them |
| 18:51:18 | <EvanR> | nice |
| 18:51:35 | tomsmeding | checks if they're in the database |
| 18:51:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> I'm pretty sure it's impossible, then. |
| 18:51:52 | <EvanR> | how many haskell programmers does it take to get time and date right |
| 18:52:25 | <tomsmeding> | well this is a combination of 1. the original author of ircbrowse creating this hideous postgres setup |
| 18:52:31 | <humasect> | it will be evaluated when necessary |
| 18:52:36 | <tomsmeding> | and apparently assuming that the server is in UTC |
| 18:52:43 | <tomsmeding> | and 2. me not doing that |
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| 18:56:19 | <tomsmeding> | ok so the logs are there in the znc log files but the import to postgres borks |
| 18:56:41 | <tomsmeding> | the issue is this: the import to postgres assigns IDs to the events, and those IDs are not necessarily stable when you do a clean re-import of everything |
| 18:56:55 | <tomsmeding> | and people might have bookmarks to specific events, which have the ID in the URL |
| 18:57:14 | <tomsmeding> | I have wanted to rewrite this system for years but I never had the motivation to |
| 18:57:33 | <tomsmeding> | Zemyla: so possible, but rather a nuisancve |
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| 18:59:50 | <tomsmeding> | another part of the problem is that on a system with system time with DST, znc logs are technically ambiguous since it just contains the HH:MM:SS time for every message |
| 19:00:26 | <EvanR> | it would need a multi-part migration which does something to make a translation table of old IDs, reimports, then fixes all the IDs |
| 19:00:27 | <tomsmeding> | so when you switch from summer time to winter time and the clock goes back an hour, you get times between 01:00 and 02:00 twice |
| 19:01:04 | <tomsmeding> | if there are enough messages you can spot the jump and it's not ambiguous, but if there's, say, only one message in that two-hour slot, it's ambiguous where it is |
| 19:01:11 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: possibly |
| 19:01:36 | <EvanR> | if there's only 1 message during the ambiguous period, may it's not that important what time it happened xD |
| 19:01:40 | <EvanR> | flip a coin |
| 19:01:45 | <tomsmeding> | that's a point |
| 19:02:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Yeah, you just have to make sure the overlap isn't a problem. |
| 19:02:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Very few people will care whether a message took place in the summer 1:30 or the winter 1:30. |
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| 19:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | it's whether it happened at 01:30 or 02:30 UTC |
| 19:04:44 | <tomsmeding> | you know what? I'm going to think about this later and you guys will have to live with the current mess a while longer :p |
| 19:05:23 | <EvanR> | the fascinating problems we put ourselves in |
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| 19:07:15 | <tomsmeding> | DST should be abolished |
| 19:08:10 | <tomsmeding> | without DST I could just leave everything as-is and translate on-the-fly when serving the web page |
| 19:08:55 | <tomsmeding> | in a way it's weird in the first place that ircbrowse has the notion of "day", and that day is whatever matches the system timezone on the server it runs on |
| 19:09:48 | <tomsmeding> | for me, being in UTC+1/UTC+2, the UTC day would match closely enough with my calendar day that it's intuitive, but if you're, say, in California or in New Zealand, the ircbrowse "day" is something completely weird |
| 19:10:59 | <tomsmeding> | does anyone here remember what the old ircbrowse, when it was still hosted by its original creator (Chris Done), used as the timezone for events? |
| 19:11:13 | <EvanR> | yeah day (unless you're talking NASA MJD stuff) is really a localization thing |
| 19:13:23 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: is this the authoritative reference on what the MJD is? https://core2.gsfc.nasa.gov/time/ Because it defines it as intrinsically linked to a _calendar_ day, with no timezone specified |
| 19:14:00 | <EvanR> | wow nice css |
| 19:14:16 | <tomsmeding> | "Last modified 17/3/00" |
| 19:15:35 | <EvanR> | since MJD is a specific number that I've seen in relation to interplanetary objects I presume it's defined specifically enough to get within the day, otherwise what's the point of the decimals |
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| 19:15:57 | <EvanR> | now I'm going down a rabbit hole |
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| 19:18:19 | <tomsmeding> | ok so this table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_day#Variants seems to interpret it as relative to UTC |
| 19:18:25 | <tomsmeding> | (I just refreshed it) |
| 19:18:59 | <tomsmeding> | > (floor (0.80278 * 24), floor ((0.80278 * 24 - 19) * 60)) |
| 19:19:01 | <lambdabot> | (19,16) |
| 19:19:04 | <EvanR> | wikipedia page has references to noon = noon in UT |
| 19:19:18 | <tomsmeding> | oh right |
| 19:19:33 | <tomsmeding> | ok good, so it makes sense |
| 19:27:30 | <monochrom> | Oh, time leaps in IRC logs? They are awesome, please don't kill them! >:) |
| 19:27:31 | <EvanR> | (where UT is not exactly equal to UTC but close) |
| 19:28:04 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: are they? :P |
| 19:28:55 | <monochrom> | We need to confuse future archaelogists by leaving around records that can be misinterpreted as evidence for we having figured out time travel! |
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| 19:30:10 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think this is a particularly convincing exhibit to that end :p |
| 19:31:04 | <monochrom> | OK OK, s/archaeologists/ufologists/ ! >:D |
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| 19:40:11 | <gentauro> | EvanR: define "get time and date right" ;) |
| 19:40:17 | <gentauro> | it's actually not trivial |
| 19:40:41 | <sm> | he knwos |
| 19:40:46 | <tomsmeding> | so, many, apparently |
| 19:41:00 | <gentauro> | sm: everybody does ;) |
| 19:47:17 | <gentauro> | follow-up question, how many bits do you need to store `date` and `time` right? I vote for 96-bits (32 bits for date and 64 for time) |
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| 19:56:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that must be a trick question. The only right answer is to not answer :) |
| 19:57:10 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 20:07:45 | <darkling> | Number of Planck times since the Big Bang. :) |
| 20:08:47 | <darkling> | Signed integer, of course. Just in case. |
| 20:09:23 | <tomsmeding> | so how many bits? :P |
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| 20:12:23 | <darkling> | Wikipedia says the Universe is about 8*10^60 Planck units old right now, so that's about 204 bits for present use. |
| 20:13:06 | <monochrom> | I was hoping that 128 would b enough. |
| 20:13:21 | <monochrom> | It's OK! We can go 512. :) |
| 20:13:34 | <darkling> | Max number of bits would depend on your favourite theory on the fate of the universe. |
| 20:14:08 | <monochrom> | Oh I just need a theory on the fate of this civilization. |
| 20:14:29 | darkling | checks watch |
| 20:14:34 | <darkling> | About 25 minutes? |
| 20:15:06 | <monochrom> | You are so generous :) |
| 20:15:12 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: if you use planck time you already lose about 146 bits just describing one second |
| 20:16:17 | <tomsmeding> | ok 144, more precisely |
| 20:18:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> In 10^200 years, all protons and neutrons in the universe will have likely decayed. Unless you plan on porting your data to diffuse electron-positron-photon clouds, I wouldn't worry about it. |
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| 21:05:51 | <EvanR> | gentauro, depends on the calendar |
| 21:06:56 | <EvanR> | Zemyla, sounds like a job for plasma based lifeforms |
| 21:10:16 | <tomsmeding> | > logBase 2 ((1e200 + 13.787e9) * (1/5.391e-44)) |
| 21:10:18 | <lambdabot> | 808.1199022429475 |
| 21:10:26 | <tomsmeding> | just 809 bits :) |
| 21:10:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> At that point, just use bignums. |
| 21:11:13 | <tomsmeding> | > logBase 2 ((1e200 + 13.787e9) * 365.2425 * 24 * 3600 * (1/5.391e-44)) |
| 21:11:14 | <lambdabot> | 833.0313567732568 |
| 21:11:21 | <tomsmeding> | apologies, forgot to convert years to seconds |
| 21:12:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> And even then, the universe will keep going. |
| 21:12:04 | <EvanR> | the apple core audio API uses 64-bit numbers measured in nanoseconds and is good enough for jazz |
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| 21:12:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Pun intended? |
| 21:12:24 | <tomsmeding> | > 2 ^ 64 / 1e9 / 3600 / 24 |
| 21:12:26 | <lambdabot> | 213503.9823346013 |
| 21:12:35 | <tomsmeding> | I think 213503 days is enough for jazz, yes |
| 21:13:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Not enough for Bull of Heaven, though. |
| 21:13:21 | <EvanR> | good enough for government work |
| 21:13:33 | <tomsmeding> | yes, because they don't last that long |
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| 21:17:35 | <EvanR> | > 213503 / 365.25 |
| 21:17:36 | <lambdabot> | 584.539356605065 |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-11-11.