Logs on 2025-11-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 09:27:57 | <[exa]> | is there any easy way to calculate integral `log2` with only bit operations and with just `base` (no integer-logarithms dependency or so) |
| 09:29:54 | <[exa]> | also wth is 0x7c4add? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bits-0.6/docs/src/Data.Bits.Extras.html#word32Log2 :D |
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| 09:45:21 | <kuribas> | [exa]: count leading zeros? |
| 09:46:05 | <kuribas> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/Data-Bits.html#v:countLeadingZeros |
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| 09:46:53 | <kuribas> | [exa]: should reduce to a single cpu instruction (if you have a bounded integer). |
| 09:47:26 | <kuribas> | Mutable hashtables seem quite a bit faster than immutable hashmaps: https://github.com/haskell-perf/dictionaries |
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| 09:49:44 | <kuribas> | Shame I cannot "freeze" a mutable hashmap, to use it from pure code. |
| 09:50:14 | <kuribas> | Well, probably easy to implement using copying and unsafe code. |
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| 09:51:05 | <[exa]> | kuribas: that looks mildly suspicious tbh |
| 09:51:15 | <kuribas> | why? |
| 09:51:45 | <kuribas> | [exa]: the benchmark, or the zerocount? |
| 09:52:44 | <[exa]> | the benchmark -- the int lookup for Data.HashMap.Strict should be essentially const-time like for the basic & linear hash tables, but it grows linearly |
| 09:52:54 | <[exa]> | I'd suspect they're measuring some laziness artifact |
| 09:53:13 | <[exa]> | either that or the Data.HashMap implementation is borked |
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| 09:54:27 | <kuribas> | maybe it measures n lookups? |
| 09:57:33 | <kuribas> | it does seem like that from the code https://github.com/haskell-perf/dictionaries/blob/master/Time.hs#L338 |
| 09:58:11 | <Leary> | [exa]: `GHC.Num.integerLog2`? |
| 09:59:30 | <[exa]> | Leary: oh I missed that one again. Thanks! |
| 09:59:32 | <kuribas> | Leary: that's probably slower on bounded integers. |
| 09:59:58 | <[exa]> | kuribas: yeah there's something weird there for sure |
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| 10:02:35 | <kuribas> | [exa]: devide by n gives: 13.29, 17.28, 22.42, 41.10, 85.40, 460 ns |
| 10:02:57 | <kuribas> | that looks logarithm-isch... |
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| 10:06:06 | <kuribas> | [exa]: it doubles, until 1000000, when it is suddenly X5. |
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| 10:10:14 | <kuribas> | maybe more log^2(n)? |
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| 10:13:15 | <[exa]> | kuribas: that's kinda expected because of cache effects |
| 10:14:02 | <kuribas> | maybe GC? |
| 10:14:51 | <kuribas> | I suppose no because lookup doesn't need GC... |
| 10:15:03 | <[exa]> | what's concerning is that the IO variants really seem to be measured differently (there's difference 500ms vs 14 ns, that's big right |
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| 10:15:42 | <[exa]> | no htat's a normal thing, if you have too much of an array and access it randomly, you'll eventually hit the cache size (8MB sounds expectable here) and it's going to get a few times slower |
| 10:16:06 | <[exa]> | notice the same happens for the LinearHashTable below, suddenly 3x slower (per query I assume) |
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| 10:17:57 | <kuribas> | right |
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| 10:22:40 | <[exa]> | anyway I assume the table building has leaked into the benchmark for the non-IO variant, half a second for selection in whimsy 1M table is....tooo much. |
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| 10:31:36 | <merijn> | kuribas: I mean, immutable hashmaps seems like a worst of all worlds |
| 10:31:58 | <merijn> | In generaly I'm a well-known hash map hater, though. Waaaay overrated data structure |
| 10:33:37 | <kuribas`> | merijn: good for strings? |
| 10:38:18 | <[exa]> | people who index stuff with unstructured strings truly deserve hashmaps |
| 10:38:38 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: how else, if you have strings? |
| 10:39:13 | <[exa]> | merijn: like, the immutability shouldn't be an issue at all in that precise benchmark, it's select-only |
| 10:39:23 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: tries? inverted indices? |
| 10:40:50 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: The trie is slower in that benchmark |
| 10:46:45 | <merijn> | kuribas`: Even then, meh |
| 10:47:13 | <merijn> | kuribas`: I mean, why would a hashmap be better at strings than a tree based map? |
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| 10:48:18 | merijn | will takes a tree based Map over a hashmap any day |
| 10:49:18 | <merijn> | Better worst case complexity, better space complexity, more flexible queries, negligible performance difference in 95% of scenarios (that might be a conservative percentage) |
| 10:51:12 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: the main point is that if you really want an index over strings with only Eq possible, you're likely pushed yourself into over-generalizing the situation, and you should use integers instead of the strings |
| 10:51:25 | <[exa]> | s/strings/variable-width keys/ |
| 10:52:36 | <[exa]> | merijn: in the "naive" tree case the strings are super annoying (generic tree algorithms do repeated compares on shared key prefixes etc) |
| 10:52:38 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: You build a sorted vector first? |
| 10:52:49 | <[exa]> | no, trie |
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| 10:53:42 | <merijn> | [exa]: Sure, but if you've got enough string keys for that to matter you should probably rethink your approach anyway :p |
| 10:54:07 | <[exa]> | y a p |
| 10:54:12 | <merijn> | At that point, just dump everything into SQLite |
| 10:54:42 | <kuribas`> | I have a nested dictionary with wildcards. |
| 10:54:46 | <kuribas`> | That doesn't go into SQL easily. |
| 10:54:59 | <kuribas`> | with entries like ("foo", *, 2) |
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| 10:55:29 | <kuribas`> | and strings for addresses, driver names, device models, etc.. |
| 10:55:44 | <merijn> | kuribas`: tbh 1) it's probably worth figuring out how to do it in SQLite anyway, 2) if you can turn it into a JSON encoding you can just store (and query) json blobs in SQLite :p |
| 10:55:55 | <kuribas`> | Sure I can intern all the strings, that would just be another hashmap... |
| 10:56:22 | <merijn> | kuribas`: Naah, with interned strings you could just use a tree map, since then [exa] comment about repeated compares goes away :p |
| 10:56:43 | <kuribas`> | merijn: yeah, but the interning needs another hashmap. |
| 10:57:40 | <merijn> | All I will say is that I've switched to SQLite from whatever I was using 3 times in projects, and every single time I have the same epiphany :p Which is, that I should use more SQLite in everything :p |
| 10:58:34 | <kuribas`> | I have sqlite in my python project, and I feel its just now untyped queries instead of typed data processing... |
| 10:58:40 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: no it requires a trie, hashmaps waste space for interning |
| 10:59:13 | <merijn> | kuribas`: Have you not heard the glorious news of SQLite STRICT mode? :p |
| 10:59:25 | <merijn> | https://sqlite.org/stricttables.html |
| 10:59:34 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: what if I care about time more than space? |
| 10:59:38 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: anyway you might have notice that you hit 2 professional hashmap haters today |
| 10:59:49 | <kuribas`> | right :) |
| 11:03:21 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: then you go patricia trees and/or precompiled string matchers (aho-corasick style) |
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| 11:06:02 | <[exa]> | like, there are great applications of hashes that actually make sense, like bloom filters and whatnot, why does everyone want hashmaps? |
| 11:06:20 | [exa] | sad |
| 11:06:52 | <merijn> | [exa]: JavaScript and Python popularised the use of maps. They use hashmaps, people get taught maps using the word hashmap. People internalise "hashmap good" |
| 11:07:27 | <merijn> | [exa]: Especially since neither python nor JS give you easy access to non-hashmaps, people just pretend non hashmaps don't exist. |
| 11:07:29 | <[exa]> | I already said "over-generalized" somewhere right. :D |
| 11:08:09 | <merijn> | IMO the fact that containers only ships tree maps is absolutely based and helps default people to a good map type |
| 11:09:00 | <merijn> | I also strongly approve C++ have std::map be a sensible map and requiring people to write std::unordered_map to get a hashmap |
| 11:09:24 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: tbh you should start professionally hating hashmaps just for the purpose of being cool way before it becomes popularly cool in 20 years from now |
| 11:09:43 | <[exa]> | ...at which point the cool thing is gonna be std::ai_map or so |
| 11:10:19 | <merijn> | The only reason I'm not a professional SQLite shill is that I haven't figured out how to get paid :p |
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| 11:10:36 | <[exa]> | merijn: I saw stuff like `using map = std::unordered_map;` from students, wasn't happy |
| 11:10:46 | <merijn> | [exa]: Fail them! |
| 11:10:55 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah the unordered wording is great there, tells nicely which property is lost |
| 11:11:27 | <[exa]> | merijn: I told them they failed me, don't worry. :D |
| 11:11:41 | <haskellbridge> | <doc> ai_map.. now that's just a hashmap where everything is hashed to embedding vectors :^) |
| 11:12:24 | <haskellbridge> | <doc> i am sure that has gone through a couple hype cycles already |
| 11:12:46 | <lucabtz> | merijn im a C++ developer as day job and always hated that std::map is not a hashmap but you are making me reconsider |
| 11:12:54 | <merijn> | doc: I mean, replace the hashmap with a metric tree and that's actually neat |
| 11:13:11 | <[exa]> | doc: no that's embedding_vector_map, that was popular 3 years ago. Behold: `insertAiMap k v = unsafePerformGemini $ "Please remember that " ++ show k ++ " saves " ++ show v` |
| 11:15:50 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: anyway the most formal argument against the hashmaps that I have is literally that cache bump that you saw there in the benchmarks. With hashmaps it's unavoidable if your map grows; with sensible maps you can make it disappear using some kind of locality on a map of any size. |
| 11:16:06 | <merijn> | lucabtz: A decent tree implementation like red-black or AVL tree guarantee O(log n) worst case lookup and insert (vs O(n) worst case for hashmap). Now hashmap can have better average case, but that depends on the ratio of keys to buckets. You need a certain percentage of empty buckets to avoid collissions, I don't know the optimal numbers but I'm betting at least 20-30%. So that means you must allocate |
| 11:16:12 | <merijn> | 20-30% more space than you have data |
| 11:16:48 | <merijn> | Additionally the ability of ordered maps to look up "smallest key bigger than X" or "smallest key larger than X" is super useful in many situations. |
| 11:17:04 | <lucabtz> | merijn yeah yeah your point is valid |
| 11:17:09 | <merijn> | Guaranteed stable ordering for traversals/iteration too |
| 11:17:11 | <merijn> | <3 |
| 11:17:15 | <[exa]> | <3 |
| 11:17:32 | <lucabtz> | though you need ordering for a tree map which you dont for a hash map |
| 11:17:42 | <lucabtz> | but you need a hash in the hash map |
| 11:17:47 | <lucabtz> | so it isnt very different |
| 11:17:48 | <merijn> | (important side note that containers indeed guarantees that foldable/traversable operation happen in ascending key order) |
| 11:19:52 | <[exa]> | lucabtz: like at wurst you can commit a heinous crime and order by the hash. Not sure if the other ways is doable universally tho. |
| 11:21:20 | <lucabtz> | [exa] yeah i didnt think of that, though it wouldnt work, what about hash collisions? |
| 11:22:54 | <[exa]> | multimap™ |
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| 11:24:18 | <[exa]> | technically you don't need short hashes because you don't need to minimize the hash table, so you can always have say 64b hash, so collisions won't hurt too much, and at worst you simply find the one key that you wanted from the tree range that the search returns |
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| 11:24:39 | <[exa]> | but don't :D |
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| 11:27:46 | <lucabtz> | but the tree would need to contain bins are leaves no? |
| 11:29:04 | <lucabtz> | the worst case complexity would still be O(n), maybe the worst case would incredibly unlickely given the key space is so big though |
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| 11:31:52 | <lucabtz> | and it still would be better space wise |
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| 11:53:57 | <[exa]> | lucabtz: not really, multimaps can have many same keys and you select the whole range |
| 11:54:28 | <[exa]> | also if you'd get the O(n) worst-case with this one, you'd be equivalently screwed with the hashmaps ("replace your hash") |
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| 12:23:35 | <kuribas`> | merijn: how would you query my keys, like ("foo", *, 3) in sqlite? With a CTE? |
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| 12:30:07 | <kuribas`> | "SELECT val FROM my_patterns WHERE (string_key == "foo" OR string_key IS NULL) AND (..) ORDER BY (string_key, string_key2, int_key) ASC NULLS LAST" |
| 12:30:13 | <kuribas`> | LIMIT 1 |
| 12:30:30 | <kuribas`> | Assuming NULL means "star" here... |
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| 12:34:20 | <kuribas`> | Storing * as NULL is a bit inelegant... |
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| 12:35:41 | <lucabtz> | [exa] yeah i was speaking about something distinct from multimap |
| 12:36:09 | <kuribas`> | Basically I have "data Wild a = Specific a | Wildcard", and map "Map (Wild key1, Wild key2, ...) val" |
| 12:37:26 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: how do you evaluate a wildcard on the hashmaps btw |
| 12:37:54 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: select everything with "foo" at position 1, everything with 3 at position 3, and intersect? |
| 12:37:56 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: I have "Hashable key => Hashable (Wild key)" |
| 12:38:35 | <[exa]> | so the * is essentially another constant? (I thought it's a query like "anything goes here") |
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| 12:39:06 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: basically yes. Wildcard means match anything. |
| 12:39:22 | [exa] | confused |
| 12:40:08 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: wildcard is only allowed when storing the keys, not when looking up. |
| 12:41:09 | <[exa]> | so these are keys that match all possible queries, as in, if you query for ("foo","haha",3) that thing with * is going to show up, right? |
| 12:41:39 | <kuribas`> | exactly |
| 12:42:14 | <kuribas`> | but ordered by * last. So first the specific thing, only * if no specific thing exists. |
| 12:42:49 | <[exa]> | so your query algorithm basically checks 2 hash values for each position, right? |
| 12:43:03 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: 3 |
| 12:43:13 | <kuribas`> | each position can have a wildcard. |
| 12:43:57 | <[exa]> | ah yes I meant that to get the result for ("foo","haha",3) you need to hash an dlookup the tuple as is, and then you need to hash and lookup (*, "haha", 3) and ("foo", *, 3), etc... |
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| 12:44:13 | <lucabtz> | kuribas` so when setting say (*, *, *) you would modify the whole table? |
| 12:44:28 | <[exa]> | (no other idea on how to map it to hashmaps) |
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| 12:45:19 | <kuribas`> | lucabtz: if you insert ((*, *, *) -> val), every lookup will succeed, but val only if everything else fails. |
| 12:45:34 | <merijn> | kuribas`: sorry, got distracted so missed half the context except the one question |
| 12:45:44 | <lucabtz> | ah i see okay |
| 12:45:51 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: is this RDF by the way? |
| 12:45:55 | <merijn> | kuribas`: Also, note that you can actually have SQLite run arbitrary custom functions mid query |
| 12:45:57 | <lucabtz> | the wildcard is like a fallbacl |
| 12:46:07 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: I have (HashMap (Wild a) (HashMap (Wild b) (HashMap (Wild c) val))) |
| 12:46:24 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: no, something we use for configuration. |
| 12:47:17 | <[exa]> | ok I see, so whenever the `a` is not matched you try also the wildcard at that level, which also gives ordering to wildcards |
| 12:47:56 | <kuribas`> | yeah |
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| 12:49:34 | <[exa]> | tree version: make * the lowest-ordering item, first select exactly, if that fails select minimum bound of ("foo","haha",whatever) to see if the wildcard is on the 3rd position (you can re-use the partial failed select!), then of ("foo", whatever, whatever) to see if it's on the 2nd position, ... |
| 12:49:51 | <kuribas`> | Maybe I can put an index at "a", and "b", since "c" (and d...) are sparse. |
| 12:50:51 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: why lowest? |
| 12:51:07 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: can be highest; any predictable position is OK |
| 12:51:42 | <kuribas`> | True, putting * in the dictionary is less efficient. |
| 12:52:58 | <[exa]> | lucene version: make occurence inverted indexes for all key parts that you have, select Very Very Quickly by intersecting the skiplists. (That also gives you infinite wildcard queries for free.) |
| 12:53:47 | <[exa]> | as in, in the 3-level map model, querying for (whatever, "bar", 3) requires traversing the whole first map; with inversion this is free |
| 12:54:10 | <kuribas`> | hmm, interesting... |
| 12:55:38 | <[exa]> | (PS. skiplists are magical) |
| 12:57:00 | <merijn> | something, something, lattice theory |
| 12:57:01 | <kuribas`> | [exa]: So you have three maps in parallel, then you intersect? |
| 12:59:47 | <[exa]> | yeah there's a very fast intersection algorithm for many skiplists |
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| 13:10:59 | <kuribas`> | Anyway, my current dict implementation is fast enough. For comparison, reading all the configuration files, and constructing this map in python takes less than a second, while in our legacy (lisp) system, it takes several minutes to load and store in the lisp ORM. |
| 13:19:57 | <__monty__> | That must be some implementation. |
| 13:21:11 | <kuribas`> | __monty__: it's a whole lisp system with its own type system, an ORM based on a triple store, our own (graphql like) xml query engine, timeseries computations based on linked lists, etc... |
| 13:22:10 | <kuribas`> | Also self-documenting values that are real-time inspectable in a UI (which hasn't been used for a decade now). |
| 13:22:37 | <kuribas`> | Also the system is being kept up to date by keeping a running system, then patching it as we go. |
| 13:22:54 | <kuribas`> | Since restarting the system takes an hour, to populate all the data in the ORM. |
| 13:23:23 | <__monty__> | The ORM loads all the data into memory? |
| 13:23:51 | <kuribas`> | __monty__: yes, everything except time series data. |
| 13:24:12 | <kuribas`> | And store in mysql on a triple store. |
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| 13:25:30 | <kuribas`> | I hope we get rid of it as soon as possible, since it's maintained by a single guy, who is the only one to understand the whole system. |
| 13:33:49 | <kuribas`> | If he leaves, the company will be in trouble. |
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| 14:15:07 | <__monty__> | That's not how ORMs work generally, no? Don't they keep everything in the database rather memory? |
| 14:15:58 | <kuribas> | __monty__: yes, but our ORM does both. |
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| 14:22:48 | <gentauro> | iirc, wasn't one of the op's of this channel also an op at Libera? |
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| 14:27:55 | <__monty__> | Think so, why? |
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| 14:28:13 | <kuribas> | __monty__: well, not everything, but most of the configuration I believe. |
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| 14:39:05 | <gentauro> | __monty__: cos of the EU chat 2.0 law "getting passed". I road the piece on the UK and Libera. I don't know if that will hold for EU :( |
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| 14:44:47 | <tomsmeding> | I assume they're already aware, as Libera is itself based in the EU :) |
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| 14:52:04 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: time to move it to Switzerland perhaps? |
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| 14:52:37 | <tomsmeding> | didn't CH have their own little thing going on? (I'm not staying up to date on this so may be wrong) |
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| 14:54:49 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: no clue :| |
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| 14:59:19 | <__monty__> | The regulation states that it's a "Text with EEA relevance," so I assume Switzerland would have to comply if it wants to benefit from EEA allowances. |
| 15:00:26 | <lucabtz> | does it really matter that much for libera though? its not like its a private chat in anyway, anyone can join in most channels |
| 15:00:30 | <lucabtz> | many are even logged |
| 15:00:43 | <[exa]> | +1 ^ |
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| 15:04:19 | <int-e> | AFAICS the concern would be being classified as a high-risk service and forced into doing age verification of users. |
| 15:04:54 | <[exa]> | what's "high risk" |
| 15:05:22 | <int-e> | that's left to an agency that would be established later |
| 15:05:43 | <lucabtz> | okay that is a better concern |
| 15:05:54 | <int-e> | Maybe -offtopic is a better place for this though :) |
| 15:06:03 | <[exa]> | aren't all computers super dangerous tho? |
| 15:08:09 | <int-e> | [exa]: That's why we'll switch them over to using Haskell only. |
| 15:11:42 | <[exa]> | <3 <3 <3 |
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| 15:38:56 | <gentauro> | "its not like its a private chat in anyway" reminds me of having an interaction with a public instance on why they use `Basic auth` over a non-secure channel (HTTP, jep). |
| 15:39:28 | <gentauro> | why do we (FP's) even bother? It's full of Daves everywhere anyway |
| 15:40:15 | <gentauro> | Like `base64` encoded usr/pwd over HTTP … |
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| 15:50:06 | <lucabtz> | the basic auth is different though |
| 15:50:22 | <lucabtz> | that is about identity not privacy |
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| 16:56:40 | <chromoblob> | if there's concrete, there should be distinuous |
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| 20:01:57 | × | Zemy_ quits (~Zemy@2600:100c:b0a0:aacc:4cd8:81ff:fece:b52f) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
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| 23:20:40 | <jreicher> | Does anyone have any practical experience, or know of a post that discusses it, for situations where shift/reset are adequate delimited continuation operators to use? The literature covers the situations where they're not enough, but I'm not sure there's much discussion about where they are? |
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| 23:24:19 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
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| 23:30:24 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-11-13.