Logs on 2025-11-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:46:16 | <jreicher> | @help |
| 02:46:16 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 02:46:21 | <jreicher> | @help tell |
| 02:46:21 | <lambdabot> | tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>. |
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| 02:48:20 | <jreicher> | @tell dolio I think also part of the problem is the way numbers are being treated in some lambda calculus dialects, which differs a lot from, e.g., Church numerals. If numbers are represented as abstractions, they can only be used when they are in head position as it's no longer possible to "inspect" them, which a primitive like + is trying to do. If you take that away I think the ambiguity of evaluation order with operands that might |
| 02:48:21 | <jreicher> | contain "shift" goes away also. |
| 02:48:21 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 02:48:37 | <jreicher> | @tell dolio contain "shift" goes away also. |
| 02:48:37 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 02:53:39 | <jreicher> | Oh, codolio I think you're the same person? If so, ^ |
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| 04:55:22 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 04:57:16 | × | gmg quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 05:10:38 | × | Googulator86 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 05:11:19 | × | Inline quits (~inlinE@2001-4dd7-ae97-0-4674-ae6d-2607-c022.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 05:12:19 | × | Googulator73 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Client Quit) |
| 05:12:24 | → | Googulator19 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 05:27:44 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 06:19:12 | → | deptype joins (~deptype@124.123.128.236) |
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| 06:45:38 | × | Googulator56 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 06:55:30 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:07:11 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 07:07:59 | × | annamalai quits (~annamalai@157.32.205.30) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 07:54:48 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 08:15:45 | × | Googulator59 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 08:15:56 | → | Googulator59 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 08:25:33 | × | Googulator59 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 08:38:26 | × | simplystuart quits (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 08:50:30 | × | infinity0 quits (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:52:32 | → | simplystuart joins (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
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| 08:58:29 | × | cgnarne quits (~pk@user/cgnarne) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 09:01:43 | × | Lycurgus quits (~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: alsoknownas.renjuan.org ( juan@acm.org )) |
| 09:02:31 | → | Tuplanolla joins (~Tuplanoll@91-159-187-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 09:06:04 | → | Googulator65 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 09:06:23 | × | Googulator16 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 09:16:24 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 09:30:41 | × | Googulator65 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 09:30:44 | → | Googulator24 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 09:33:59 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 09:34:57 | × | Sgeo_ quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 09:39:03 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 09:40:28 | × | petrichor quits (~jez@user/petrichor) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 09:53:48 | × | simplystuart quits (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 10:08:08 | → | simplystuart joins (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
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| 10:37:44 | × | tzh quits (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
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| 10:45:49 | × | Googulator52 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 10:50:35 | × | Googulator49 quits (~Googulato@80-95-87-101.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 10:53:34 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c1:1ab1:3da5:a5d5) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 10:54:26 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 10:54:33 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 10:57:51 | → | tromp joins (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c1:1ab1:3da5:a5d5) |
| 10:58:19 | → | __monty__ joins (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 11:03:45 | → | acidjnk joins (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7171920f5066731f9227f8d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:04:04 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-52-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 11:05:44 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 11:08:16 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c1:1ab1:3da5:a5d5) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 11:08:47 | → | tromp joins (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c1:1ab1:3da5:a5d5) |
| 11:09:44 | × | simplystuart quits (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 12:19:11 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 12:20:40 | → | Googulator19 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 12:20:53 | × | Googulator49 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 12:21:37 | → | karenw joins (~karenw@user/karenw) |
| 12:23:58 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 12:33:11 | × | DetourNetworkUK quits (DetourNetw@user/DetourNetworkUK) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 12:34:58 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 12:35:28 | × | Googulator19 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 12:35:42 | → | Googulator19 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 12:39:50 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 12:54:58 | × | oneeyedalien quits (~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 13:00:15 | × | Nachtgespenst quits (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 13:00:43 | → | Googulator75 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 13:15:44 | → | Googulator79 joins (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
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| 13:20:20 | → | takuan joins (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) |
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| 15:55:46 | <Guest2000> | Is it just me, or the link/thumb to "Functional Programming in Haskell by Graham Hutton" dead? |
| 15:55:52 | <Guest2000> | or is* |
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| 15:59:13 | <Guest2000> | at haskell.org frontpage that is. |
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| 16:01:08 | <Rembane> | This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzQTfh-Iuds&list=PLF1Z-APd9zK7usPMx3LGMZEHrECUGodd3&index=2 Yeah, it's private |
| 16:01:12 | <Rembane> | ...for me too |
| 16:01:26 | <mauke> | "Websites prove their identity via certificates, which are valid for a set time period. The certificate for haskell.org expired on 11/4/2025." |
| 16:02:19 | <int-e> | Guest2000: interesting. the play list still exists: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF1Z-APd9zK7usPMx3LGMZEHrECUGodd3 |
| 16:02:52 | <int-e> | (but the video ids have changed) |
| 16:03:14 | <int-e> | presumable they've been replaced by newer recordings |
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| 16:04:09 | <Guest2000> | Oh ok. Lets hope someone fixes it soon. Gives a bit of a bad look for anyone new arriving at the page. |
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| 16:06:20 | <int-e> | That seems overly dramatic. |
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| 16:07:30 | <mauke> | oh good, haskell.org has different ssl certificates on ipv4 and ipv6 |
| 16:07:47 | <int-e> | ...lol? |
| 16:08:04 | <mauke> | https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=haskell.org |
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| 16:17:51 | <int-e> | mauke: heh maybe lead with the fact that the IPv6 one has expired :) |
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| 16:21:06 | <int-e> | mauke: is it safe to assume that you've told #haskell-infrastructure about this? |
| 16:24:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> @irc_libera.chat_guest2000:kf8nh.com: certainly |
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| 16:25:25 | <mauke> | int-e: no |
| 16:25:35 | <mauke> | and I didn't know it was only the ipv6 one |
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| 16:25:53 | <mauke> | all I saw was that I couldn't open haskell.org anymore |
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| 17:57:40 | <codolio> | jreicher: That sounds like fixing an evaluation order. Like I said, you can do that, but then Church-Rosser becomes vacuous, because the fixed evaluation order means there is only ever one reduction step for each term, so there is no actual branching that needs to be reconciled. |
| 17:58:44 | <codolio> | It's not necessarily a bad solution. And you can have multiple evaluation orders in a single calculus. |
| 18:00:35 | <codolio> | But, it doesn't really fix what is hard to think about with regard to 'effects' and laziness. I think the aspect that makes it hard to think about is that you can no longer think about the delimiting lexically, because the shifts do not actually happen until they are evaluated. |
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| 18:02:02 | <codolio> | So when you write `reset (... shift ...)` that doesn't mean that the `shift` is actually delimited by that `reset`, because the expression within may not evaluate the shift. |
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| 18:04:35 | <codolio> | The systems I know of that have both laziness and continuations are significant departures from just lambda calculus. |
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| 19:28:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> tcard_ hi.. is the rust-focussed https://engineering.iog.io/2023-01-26-hs-bindgen-introduction/ the same as that being discussed at https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3759164.3759350 ? |
| 19:28:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or is it a name collision ? |
| 19:29:44 | <c_wraith> | pretty sure that's the same tool. |
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| 19:32:09 | <int-e> | https://github.com/well-typed/hs-bindgen looks quite different from https://github.com/yvan-sraka/hs-bindgen |
| 19:32:31 | <int-e> | (voting for name collision) |
| 19:34:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> for context: the entertaining https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhaBzbzEbKg video struggled to bring C structs across the FFI boundary and I wondered what's current best practice, and magic_rb pointed me to hs-bindgen |
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| 19:39:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> great links, thank you |
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| 20:21:22 | ChanServ | sets mode +o geekosaur |
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| 20:27:32 | <geekosaur> | I opped up because they're working on services. But I'm a little busy so ping me if needed |
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| 20:36:05 | <jreicher> | dolio: I take your point (two points, really), but I don't think it's like fixing evaluation order any more than the normal lambda calculus is. I think it's a confusion in the story we are telling about types and arguments. Take, for example, in a Church-numeral arithmetic, that we would probably have (* 0 (K 5)) -> 0, but (* (K 5) 0) -> 5 (or maybe (K (K 5)), etc. depending on implementation of *). What's going on here is (K 5) is not |
| 20:36:05 | <jreicher> | the sort of object that should be given to the usual story of *, but if we ignore that story what happened is perfectly fine, because abstractions are not commutative. |
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| 22:02:35 | <tcard_> | @sm Hi! It is indeed an unfortunate name collision. |
| 22:02:40 | <tcard_> | https://github.com/yvan-sraka/hs-bindgen is a project that creates bindings for Rust. |
| 22:02:45 | <tcard_> | https://github.com/well-typed/hs-bindgen is a project that creates bindings for C. |
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| 22:28:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> tcard_ oh hey! you're one of the hs-bindgen folk. Thanks for your work. I want to try to use hs-bindgen to bind to SDL, hoping itll be a better experience for cross than c2hs or hsc2hs. (yes, im asking how's cross with hs-bindgen :) very subtle ik) |
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| 22:50:56 | <tcard_> | @magic_rb Hi! Clang is targetable, so hs-bindgen can easily create bindings for a different target. Getting a cross-platform build pipeline working is of course not so easy, especially if there is any Template Haskell involved. Cross compilation support is planned, though! (I have already done some initial work on this, but working on some core functionality currently has priority.) |
| 22:50:56 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 22:51:12 | <tcard_> | magic_rb Hi! Clang is targetable, so hs-bindgen can easily create bindings for a different target. Getting a cross-platform build pipeline working is of course not so easy, especially if there is any Template Haskell involved. Cross compilation support is planned, though! (I have already done some initial work on this, but working on some core functionality currently has priority.) |
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| 22:52:25 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> The way im thinking about this, is that ive already managed to point hs-bindgen at a C header (i think it was sys/stat.h) and it spat out fine looking haskell bindings |
| 22:53:03 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I havent tested actually compiling them. But if im able to tell hs bindgen "please target X triplet" thats enough for. Ill just run that in a nix build as a preBuild command and all good :) |
| 22:54:12 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> The ghc side is a mess, but ive managed to get cross to windows even with TH involved. Along with the works ners has done for a nice Nix flake for cross to JS and WASM, the GHC side is covered. Current blocker for me is the FFI :) |
| 22:56:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> but yeah, my long term goal is to establish CI for my little game engine project for wasm, js, x86_64-linux and x86_64-windows-gnu |
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