Logs on 2025-11-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:23:41 | <yin> | I'm trying to understant FRP in haskell and the hypothetical Monad instance for Signals. My mind immediately went to call/cc from Scheme. Am I way off base? |
| 00:25:35 | <EvanR> | Signal doesn't sound like the original formulation of FRP. Which library is this from |
| 00:27:20 | <EvanR> | in conal's old blog, he mentioned maybe something about a monad instance for Events then later abandoned it |
| 00:28:44 | <yin> | EvanR: Signal would be Behaviour from Conal's. (>>=) :: Signal a -> (a -> Signal b) -> Signal b |
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| 00:30:25 | <EvanR> | oh |
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| 00:30:47 | <EvanR> | then monad can make sense in the same sense as the monad instance for Stream of Stream of a |
| 00:30:55 | <EvanR> | er, stream |
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| 00:31:02 | <EvanR> | join :: Stream (Stream a) -> Stream a |
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| 00:33:44 | <EvanR> | join :: Signal (Signal a) -> Signal a, assuming Signal = Behavior |
| 00:34:02 | <EvanR> | how useful that is I don't know |
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| 00:43:44 | <yin> | my intuition is that bind would offer a way to dynamically change the control flow or dependency graph |
| 00:43:46 | <yin> | https://paste.jrvieira.com/1763426541194 |
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| 00:45:09 | <EvanR> | Signal f <*> Signal x |
| 00:45:15 | <EvanR> | to make it more clear what's going on |
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| 00:45:37 | <EvanR> | would give you, basically (not actual syntax), Signal (f x) |
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| 00:45:45 | <yin> | right. i had that but (x t) looked weird to me :) |
| 00:46:36 | <EvanR> | the usual way to introduce a way to "dynamically" replace a behavior is to use an event |
| 00:46:55 | <EvanR> | something like Signal a -> Event (Signal a) -> Signal a |
| 00:47:16 | <EvanR> | the signal is replaced with the event payload when/if it happens. Before before any events, the first argument applies |
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| 00:49:59 | <monochrom> | If you think call/cc, you're a low-level person. It's not wrong, it just may be very helpful or very distracting depending on your purpose. |
| 00:51:40 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 00:52:33 | <jackdk> | I got a lot out of (in order): this old "FRP - Events and Behaviours" talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXW1jBijhlk, the diagrams in the reactive-banana package, and https://github.com/qfpl/reflex-workshop/ (for hands-on experience). They might help you get your head around the mental models |
| 00:52:35 | <yin> | monochrom: it just had the same smell in my purposeless mind, that's all |
| 00:53:01 | <monochrom> | It's OK. Lately I smelled Yoneda lemma everywhere anyway. :) |
| 00:54:10 | <yin> | jackdk: tyvm |
| 00:54:35 | <monochrom> | (The smell was correct. It really was Yoneda lemma. Know every angle, all of them are helpful.) |
| 00:57:05 | <EvanR> | was this a programming situation or category theory |
| 00:58:50 | <yin> | yes |
| 00:59:03 | <yin> | :) |
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| 01:07:46 | <monochrom> | Suppose σ permutes arrays of length n. I can apply it to the "identity array" [0 .. n-1], i.e., define e := σ [0 .. n-1]. Then I can use e instead of σ to permute other arrays: To permute v, (σ v)[i] = v[e[i]] for each i. In the vector library, you can just write `V.backpermute e v`. |
| 01:08:11 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 01:08:13 | <monochrom> | Turns out this was foretold by the Yoneda lemma too! |
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| 01:10:41 | <monochrom> | Model "array of length n with elements of type a" as N->a, N = {0 .. n-1}. Then permutations are a special cases of (N->a) -> (N->a). Then Yoneda embedding says that it's isomorphic to N->N, the forward mapping maps σ to σ id, id = [0 .. n-1]. |
| 01:11:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> So is there a type that represents a combination? |
| 01:12:01 | <monochrom> | And the backward mapping maps e to \v -> v ∘ e |
| 01:12:14 | <monochrom> | I don't know! Not interested for now. |
| 01:12:55 | <EvanR> | sounds like the theory of group action |
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| 01:15:25 | <monochrom> | Moreover, it also hints that σ id is "backwards": It maps new indexes to old indexes. How to see it: Use N for old indexes, N' for new indexes. Then (N->a) -> (N'->a) is isomorphic to N' -> N. |
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| 01:17:08 | <monochrom> | So yeah it's both programming and category theory. I was coding up LU factorization with pivoting, and I recorded the permutation of rows by performing the same permutation on [0 .. n-1] and returning it. |
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| 01:21:50 | <monochrom> | Combination may be N->2. Each of n elements may be chosen or not-chosen. |
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| 01:24:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> True. |
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| 10:55:03 | <kaol> | I'm looking at network library's source and I see lines like "sizeOf ~_ = #const sizeof(struct addrinfo)" in it. What's that #const thing? |
| 10:59:43 | <Leary> | kaol: Looks like a "label": https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_labels.html |
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| 11:04:27 | <tomsmeding> | is there some way I can obtain a Coercible Int Int64? I'm fine if it's in a Maybe that is Nothing whenever this is not a 64-bit system or something |
| 11:04:50 | <kaol> | I'm not seeing that extension mentioned anywhere in the library. |
| 11:04:59 | <tomsmeding> | kaol: c2hs? |
| 11:05:11 | <tomsmeding> | is this in a .chs file? |
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| 11:06:18 | <kaol> | tomsmeding: Thanks, that explains what's going on. I suspect you mean .hsc because that's what they are using. |
| 11:06:37 | <tomsmeding> | ah yes, I misremembered |
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| 11:07:35 | <kaol> | I need to do something similar but my use is limited enough that I think I'll just use capi for what I need. |
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| 11:24:55 | <mauke> | for reference, https://github.com/haskell/hsc2hs?tab=readme-ov-file#input-syntax |
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| 11:26:51 | <mauke> | and https://github.com/haskell/hsc2hs/blob/master/data/template-hsc.h |
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| 11:56:58 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: Only by cheating egregiously: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/91103a2fbb35d1c908802fa81d82c110 |
| 11:57:57 | <Leary> | Worse, since GHC can actually see the declarations for all types involves, it /knows/ the `Coercible` instances are bogus and raises all kinds of warnings ... not sure if that will cause issues in practice. |
| 11:58:02 | <Leary> | involved* |
| 11:59:53 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: right -- I tried something like this too, and got the same warnings |
| 12:00:14 | <Leary> | I mean, it considers the (useful) RHSs of `archWS` as unreachable, so it's free to compile them away. `_test` works in the REPL, but might segfault in actual use. |
| 12:00:22 | <tomsmeding> | beautiful! |
| 12:00:39 | <tomsmeding> | If it compiles, it works. |
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| 12:17:15 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: Looking at the core under optimisation, it does compile just fine on my GHC 9.10. But I don't see why a future GHC could not choose to treat it as: `archWS = case wordSize of { 32 -> case unsafeWord32 of {}; 64 -> case unsafeWord64 of {}; _ -> UNK }`, producing core `archWS = case patError "ArchWS.hs:20:66-88|case"# of {}`. |
| 12:18:57 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 12:19:40 | <tomsmeding> | we'd need some kind of guarantee from GHC that conjuring up custom Coercible evidence is okay and respected by GHC, and there is no such guarantee currently, I think |
| 12:19:53 | <tomsmeding> | especially in the context of it being explicitly disallowed to write manual instances for Coercible |
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| 12:37:59 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: I want to include (lightly edited) logs of this conversation in the gist as a warning to posterity; do you mind? |
| 12:38:14 | <tomsmeding> | sure, they are public anyway :) |
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| 12:40:40 | <Leary> | There is a certain irony in asking that of the guy who hosts public logs of the whole channel, but it just felt a bit rude to quote a casual conversation somewhere less transient without asking. |
| 12:42:25 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: heh. Thanks for asking though, I appreciate it :) |
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| 12:48:32 | <omidmash> | Good day. I need to install Haskell on lots of PCs that I manage using ansible playbooks. These computers are in computer labors, so I need GHC/I to work reliably. The official instruction installs in home folder (which I have set to reset on reboot), and needs user prompts. Is there a way to install Haskell systemwide that is automatable, for |
| 12:48:32 | <omidmash> | instance with ansible? |
| 12:53:49 | <omidmash> | Ah I have just noticed the haskell-ops channel |
| 12:54:01 | <tomsmeding> | omidmash: solves only half of your problem, but the ghcup install script responds to the BOOTSTRAP_HASKELL_NONINTERACTIVE environment variable |
| 12:54:15 | <kaol> | If this is about a linux distribution going with the package provided by them is one option. |
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| 13:54:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Is there no function in base to get the bit length of a positive Integer? |
| 13:54:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I would google myself but stackoverflow is down with cloudflare |
| 13:54:47 | <lucabtz> | isnt it just log2 |
| 13:54:56 | <lucabtz> | with some flooring or ceiling |
| 13:55:23 | <lucabtz> | maybe not efficient though |
| 13:59:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> There's logBase, but that's for Floating. I don't see a log2 function |
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| 13:59:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> That's fine, I already wrote "lb a = flip Data.Function.fix (abs a, 0) $ \go (x, r) -> if x == 0 then r else go (Data.Bits.shiftR x 1, r + 1)" |
| 14:00:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It's off by one but that's fine |
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| 14:07:37 | <lucabtz> | Morj by log2 i didnt mean anything specific about haskell, just the natural logarithm in base 2, but you are right it is for floating |
| 14:08:28 | <lucabtz> | that's why i said maybe not good for efficiency |
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| 14:13:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It's not only not good for efficiency, but logBase 2 (2^1024) == NaN |
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| 14:13:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I don't care about efficiency in ghci, more about usefulness |
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| 14:18:26 | <lucabtz> | sure sure, i just meant its related to log2, didnt know about the specific haskell functions |
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| 14:27:17 | <Leary> | Morj: `GHC.Num.integerLog2` |
| 14:29:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted |
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| 14:31:24 | <morj> | The tagging of my bridged account still doesn't work, but what if I write out @morj:morj.men ? |
| 14:31:35 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> morj: Hm |
| 14:31:40 | <morj> | Morj hm |
| 14:31:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Wait what, this one tagged me |
| 14:32:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> What are you all doing wrong? |
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| 14:39:58 | <tomsmeding> | Morj test |
| 14:39:59 | <dutchie> | Morj: there was no colon on the second one |
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| 14:47:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Um, now I see both (I was just afk) |
| 14:49:08 | <tomsmeding> | Morj: have you considered correlating matrix notification behaviour with the phase of the moon |
| 14:49:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yes, it's uncorrelated |
| 14:49:48 | <tomsmeding> | that's a relief |
| 14:50:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It's not the matrix itself (which also has a million problems), but the bridge misbehaving. But I believe this problem was reported |
| 14:50:20 | <tomsmeding> | oh right, I remember |
| 14:51:31 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/hifi/heisenbridge/issues/310 |
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| 14:52:26 | <tomsmeding> | Morj: so it's possible that it works _because_ you're now also here with your morj irc user |
| 14:52:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Huh |
| 14:52:43 | ← | morj parts (~morj@user/morj) (Konversation terminated!) |
| 14:52:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Try now plz |
| 14:52:54 | <tomsmeding> | Morj test |
| 14:52:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yep, no notif |
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| 14:57:48 | <lucabtz> | how about the colon? |
| 14:57:53 | <lucabtz> | Morj: test |
| 14:57:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Nope |
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| 16:35:11 | <geekosaur> | re matrix, yes, we ran into this issue some time ago and I filed a bug report against the bridge software |
| 16:35:21 | <geekosaur> | haven't heard anything back, of course |
| 16:35:42 | <geekosaur> | (symptoms make me suspect it's passing the wrong side of the bridge's user list to the function that checks for mentions) |
| 16:36:24 | <humasect> | error: symptoms: symbol not found |
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| 21:34:31 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 21:43:04 | × | takuan quits (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:43:55 | × | Pozyomka quits (~pyon@user/pyon) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 21:45:54 | → | Pozyomka joins (~pyon@user/pyon) |
| 21:46:28 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:07:38 | → | rata2 joins (~ohomecham@user/rata2) |
| 22:08:16 | → | humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) |
| 22:08:25 | × | rata2 quits (~ohomecham@user/rata2) (Client Quit) |
| 22:09:34 | → | rata2 joins (~ohomecham@user/rata2) |
| 22:10:35 | → | ljdarj1 joins (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) |
| 22:10:35 | × | ljdarj1 quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Client Quit) |
| 22:13:13 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 22:14:29 | × | ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 22:15:32 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:8d4:6354:928b:6095) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 22:16:29 | → | tromp joins (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:8d4:6354:928b:6095) |
| 22:30:51 | → | weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627) |
| 22:36:30 | × | vanishingideal quits (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 22:38:08 | → | vanishingideal joins (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) |
| 22:38:45 | × | divlamir quits (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:39:06 | → | divlamir joins (~divlamir@user/divlamir) |
| 22:50:32 | → | mange joins (~mange@user/mange) |
| 22:55:32 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 22:55:56 | → | Square3 joins (~Square@user/square) |
| 22:59:28 | × | Square2 quits (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 23:01:17 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
| 23:04:50 | × | __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 23:05:17 | → | Fischmie- joins (~Fischmiep@user/Fischmiep) |
| 23:05:50 | × | Fischmiep quits (~Fischmiep@user/Fischmiep) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:06:55 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:08:31 | × | CiaoSen quits (~Jura@ipservice-092-210-206-067.092.210.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 23:09:39 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:8d4:6354:928b:6095) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 23:12:27 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 23:18:41 | → | Guest55 joins (~Guest55@2600:480a:2930:b500:15d4:3bba:ce3f:970) |
| 23:18:45 | <Guest55> | hi |
| 23:19:58 | → | karenw joins (~karenw@user/karenw) |
| 23:23:18 | geekosaur | waves |
| 23:23:48 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:28:33 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:30:05 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:31:17 | × | vanishingideal quits (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:32:47 | → | vanishingideal joins (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) |
| 23:33:05 | × | sindu quits (~sindu@77.19.134.151.tmi.telenormobil.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:34:45 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:35:02 | → | sindu joins (~sindu@2.148.32.207.tmi.telenormobil.no) |
| 23:38:30 | × | haltingsolver quits (~cmo@2604:3d09:207f:8000::d1dc) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:38:51 | → | haltingsolver joins (~cmo@2604:3d09:207f:8000::d1dc) |
| 23:45:20 | × | Guest55 quits (~Guest55@2600:480a:2930:b500:15d4:3bba:ce3f:970) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 23:45:52 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:46:39 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) |
| 23:50:55 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 23:53:20 | EvanR | particles |
| 23:56:29 | <Inline> | ABC particle soup ? |
| 23:57:05 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-11-18.