Logs on 2025-11-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:04:38 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 01:10:56 | omidmash1 | is now known as omidmash |
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| 01:15:36 | <yin> | any reason tree-sitter highlight in haskell is still awful? |
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| 01:33:40 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 01:34:27 | × | Enrico63 quits (~Enrico63@2a0b:e541:10d0:0:9efc:e8ff:fe24:3213) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 01:39:47 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-152-225-194.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
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| 01:47:59 | <jreicher> | What's awful about it? |
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| 09:29:58 | <[exa]> | WASM backend question: are there any good options for storing a "global state" in the WASM app? I see 2 possibilities, 1] serializing it out into wasm/js types, 2] having a hs/wasm function running permanently (thus holding the state), only communicating with the outside world via some kind of events (choice of "some" is unclear now). |
| 09:30:13 | <[exa]> | (Ideas/pointers very welcome. :) ) |
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| 10:35:47 | <probie> | can you get away with a top level IORef (with the NOINLINE unsafePerformIO shenangians)? |
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| 10:41:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I believe this is a common pattern in some situations, like for logging |
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| 10:59:09 | <tomsmeding> | probie: yes, if the only thing in unsafePerformIO is the creation of the IORef and the usages are in normal IO, that's fine |
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| 10:59:45 | <tomsmeding> | if you do mutations to the IORef also in unsafePerformIO, if I'm not mistaken it is prudent to add {-# OPTIONS -fno-cse -fno-full-laziness #-}, but this may be cargo-culting |
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| 11:32:43 | <yin> | jreicher: tree-sitter highlight enabled: https://shot.jrvieira.com/1763551807.png vs disabled: https://shot.jrvieira.com/1763551862.png |
| 11:33:13 | <yin> | former is very inconsistent, even for trivial syntax like this |
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| 11:34:38 | <jreicher> | Why do you think it's inconsistent? It's giving you more grammatical information, which is why it looks different. You can set it to give less if you want. |
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| 11:35:06 | <jreicher> | Set `treesit-font-lock-level' to a smaller number |
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| 11:36:53 | <jreicher> | There's also even more fine grained control if you want. |
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| 11:37:39 | <yin> | it gets worse on more complex syntax. this was what i had in front of me. how do we explain the highlighting of `constant` in the signature? |
| 11:39:56 | <jreicher> | Oh I think I see what you mean. Hmm. That might be a bug. What version of the treesitter grammar are you using? And also what version of Emacs? |
| 11:45:01 | <yin> | it's nvim v0.11.5. not sure how to check the grammar version |
| 11:45:39 | <jreicher> | Oh! I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have assumed you were using Emacs. |
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| 11:49:01 | <__monty__> | I'm actually more confused about the different coloring for identifiers in the other signatures. |
| 11:49:17 | <__monty__> | Also the definition of `pure` though. |
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| 11:49:36 | <__monty__> | And speed and duration. |
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| 11:50:46 | <jreicher> | yin: you might want to ask on #neovim. What you are seeing could be specific to the integration with treesitter, rather than treesitter itself, as treesitter doesn't actually do any highlighting; it just provides parsing information. |
| 11:50:46 | <yin> | i'm checking other files and i think it has actually got much better than what i remember. but this specific bug is very noticeable on every file i'm checking. i can't find a pattern, it seems to randomly highlight some function names in signatures differently |
| 11:51:38 | <jreicher> | It's possible there's a bug in the parse, but I think that would be less likely. I am guessing though. |
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| 11:52:27 | <yin> | jreicher: ok thanks |
| 11:53:17 | <yin> | __monty__: is the definition of `pure` wrong? |
| 11:53:59 | <yin> | i'm just starting out trying to understand the basics of FRP |
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| 11:57:45 | <__monty__> | No, just talking about the highlighting here. Identifiers are green in definitions but pure, speed and duration are white? The latter at least also have a signature but coloring identifiers a different color in signatures is also weird to me. For types and constructors the distinction makes sense but not for other identifiers. |
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| 12:04:35 | <yin> | ah, yes |
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| 12:23:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Yeah, in general I find people go too crazy with syntax-based highlighting, I just rely on vim's regex-based, it's less shouty |
| 12:23:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> https://tonsky.me/blog/syntax-highlighting/ - was a good article about that recently |
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| 12:24:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> The biggest sillyness was zig, that on their official docs highlighted all identifiers in yellow. But everything is an identifier! So all the code was yellow on grey |
| 12:24:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> They changed it since then |
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| 12:33:04 | <probie> | tomsmeding: sorry, that wasn't really a question, that was meant to be in response to [exa]'s question (re: global state in wasm) |
| 12:34:15 | <[exa]> | probie: oh whops I missed that, thanks! |
| 12:34:28 | <[exa]> | so, well, let's see if that crashes the wasm runner. :D |
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| 12:36:49 | <leosha> | @free x :: Int |
| 12:36:49 | <lambdabot> | x = x |
| 12:37:00 | <leosha> | @free forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 12:37:00 | <lambdabot> | Try `free <ident>` or `free <ident> :: <type>` |
| 12:37:13 | <leosha> | @free x :: forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 12:37:13 | <lambdabot> | Extra stuff at end of line |
| 12:37:23 | <leosha> | @free x :: forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 12:37:23 | <lambdabot> | Extra stuff at end of line |
| 12:37:35 | <leosha> | @free x :: forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 12:37:35 | <lambdabot> | Extra stuff at end of line |
| 12:37:44 | <tomsmeding> | @free x :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 12:37:44 | <lambdabot> | Extra stuff at end of line |
| 12:37:46 | <tomsmeding> | @help free |
| 12:37:47 | <lambdabot> | free <ident>. Generate theorems for free |
| 12:37:52 | <leosha> | @help free |
| 12:37:52 | <lambdabot> | free <ident>. Generate theorems for free |
| 12:37:59 | <tomsmeding> | @free x :: (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 12:37:59 | <lambdabot> | Plugin `free' failed with: src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Free/Type.hs:(153,17)-(161,45): Non-exhaustive patterns in case |
| 12:38:02 | <tomsmeding> | nice |
| 12:38:06 | <leosha> | lol |
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| 12:38:51 | <[exa]> | yin: I found this to be a pretty common tree-sitter issue, many language parsers are "supported" but completely underrepresented there, and their error recovery is shaky at best (and error recovery is VERY required for things their parsers don't manage to do, which in the very specific case of haskell is many things) |
| 12:40:08 | <chromoblob> | has vim's haskell highlighter been fixed to allow space between ` and the identifier between `'s? |
| 12:40:24 | <[exa]> | yin: btw after seeing what some of their parses look internally I decided to simply avoid tree-sitter :) |
| 12:40:24 | <Leary> | @free x :: (a -> F b) -> s -> F t |
| 12:40:24 | <lambdabot> | $map_F g . p = q . f => $map_F k . x p = x q . h |
| 12:40:43 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: oh whew let me check :D |
| 12:41:15 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: well, no :D |
| 12:41:24 | <chromoblob> | heh. |
| 12:41:25 | <[exa]> | who puts spaces in there? |
| 12:41:38 | <chromoblob> | it's allowed!!! |
| 12:42:07 | [exa] | . o O ( unsafePutSpacesIntoBackticks ) |
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| 12:46:05 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: ok so I just added ' *' to the 2 lines that match that in /usr/share/vim/.../syntax/haskell.vim and it seems to just work |
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| 12:46:26 | <[exa]> | lines 49 and 50, rules hsVarSym and hsConSym |
| 12:46:41 | <[exa]> | wonder what it breaks |
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| 12:49:53 | <[exa]> | let's ask the devs I guess, we have a pull request day today anyway |
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| 13:00:57 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: https://github.com/vim/vim/pull/18776 |
| 13:02:05 | <chromoblob> | [exa]: thank you!!! i waited for this |
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| 13:02:30 | <[exa]> | chromoblob: how long tho |
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| 13:03:38 | <chromoblob> | years (but i haven't been writing much haskell that time) |
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| 13:06:33 | <[exa]> | oh great we improved on a long-awaited feature today |
| 13:06:42 | <[exa]> | beverages! |
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| 13:53:53 | <merijn> | [exa]: Haskell's treesitter parser is also horrifically confusing. I tried looking at it for inspiration for writing my own tree-sitter parsers |
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| 14:03:39 | <[exa]> | merijn: man, I opened that |
| 14:03:41 | <[exa]> | my eyes |
| 14:04:35 | <merijn> | [exa]: It's a nightmare |
| 14:05:33 | <[exa]> | it's like if flex&yacc never happened |
| 14:06:19 | <merijn> | It's like they looked at the tree-sitter documentation of keeping parse trees simple and small and being like...naah, fuck that |
| 14:06:47 | <merijn> | Maybe if I'm ever done writing my SQLite tree-sitter parser I will just write a Haskell parser from scratch |
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| 14:18:59 | <[exa]> | merijn: why'd you do a sqlite one |
| 14:29:03 | <merijn> | I started a new project using SQLite, I didn't like the neovim syntax highlighting of SQL (it's a terrible "every dialect half-assed together" tree-sitter parser) breaking on every query, got side-tracked into yak-shaving by writing my own SQLite parser since no one made one for me |
| 14:29:35 | <merijn> | Everyone implements syntax highlighting for SELECT, create table, etc. but as soon as you do anything serious they're all like "lol, didn't implement that" |
| 14:29:54 | <merijn> | It breaks on parameter substitutions, window functions, all kinds of other tiny things |
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| 14:44:16 | <tomsmeding> | chromoblob: why do you put spaces inside backticks |
| 14:44:36 | <tomsmeding> | that's the big question here |
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| 14:45:25 | <chromoblob> | in normal usage, i don't |
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| 14:46:10 | <chromoblob> | but it's irritating to have the highlighter disregard this possibility |
| 14:46:34 | <tomsmeding> | vim's haskell highlighter also disregards the possibility of separating type signatures from the definition |
| 14:47:24 | <int-e> | > id ` id ` id ` id ` id ` id ` 42 |
| 14:47:25 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 14:47:26 | <tomsmeding> | or having no spaces around :: |
| 14:47:37 | <int-e> | (TIL, and eww) |
| 14:47:51 | <tomsmeding> | > id`id`id`id`id`id`42 |
| 14:47:53 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 14:48:07 | tomsmeding | . o O ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlambda ) |
| 14:48:24 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: ``ci`ci |
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| 14:49:06 | <int-e> | (weird non-constant memory infinite loop with continuations) |
| 14:49:41 | tomsmeding | was halfway through deciphering what that means and gave up |
| 14:50:18 | <tomsmeding> | I've been trying to decide what the stronger-than lattice is between starvation-free, deadlock-free, non-blocking, obstruction-free, lock-free, wait-free is for a lecture I'm giving tomorrow |
| 14:50:22 | <tomsmeding> | I think I'm just going to give up |
| 14:50:30 | <tomsmeding> | noone in the class is going to understand it anyway |
| 14:50:38 | <tomsmeding> | my brain is too fried |
| 14:51:17 | <int-e> | How did the weird counter work... *twiddle*, ah, this: ``ci`.*`cr (prints lines with 0 stars, 1 stars, 2 stars etc.) |
| 14:51:18 | <tomsmeding> | getting precise enough definitions that you can even reason about them properly is hard enough, and I'm not even sure I have the proper ones |
| 14:51:29 | <lucabtz> | i was reading on the wikipedia page about Yoneda's lemma it is related to continuation style programming. someone has a resource on this |
| 14:52:12 | <int-e> | (I misspoke, that's just what the code looks like; I'm not reconstructing why that works) |
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| 16:48:02 | <pie_> | meanwhile im sitting here intimidated by basic locking |
| 16:50:34 | <EvanR> | instead of basic locking, consider holding the exclusive resource in an MVar or TVar and accessing it using an appropriate bracket |
| 16:50:57 | <EvanR> | which will return the resource to the MVar in case of the thread fails |
| 16:51:13 | <EvanR> | MVar or TMVar* |
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| 19:05:29 | <[exa]> | merijn: can you re-use the postgresql one? |
| 19:06:52 | <[exa]> | int-e tomsmeding: to solve the backtick situation I propose -XFronTicks that gives a proper ` id ´ |
| 19:10:26 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: and then you have two exclusive resources and you don't take the locks in the right order and you deadlock |
| 19:13:40 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: at least the deadlocks are usually solvable&preemptable if the locks are properly bracketed |
| 19:17:43 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: what do you mean with properly bracketed? Do you mean that the runtime would throw a "blocked indefinitely on MVar" exception and kill one of the threads? |
| 19:18:46 | <tomsmeding> | because relying on that sounds like asking for trouble |
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| 19:20:26 | <[exa]> | "properly bracketed" = acquire all locks in predictable order ideally before any work starts, release them in reverse order. If you manage to have a global predictable order, there's no deadlocks. If there's still a deadlock, at least you get an exception which doesn't interrupt any actual work and retrying is cheap&safe |
| 19:20:51 | <[exa]> | (it's got a name in DBMSes but I don't remember that name) |
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| 19:21:29 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: if you take the locks in a globally consistent order there are no deadlocks |
| 19:21:50 | <tomsmeding> | not due to those locks in any case |
| 19:23:16 | <[exa]> | yap |
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| 22:22:25 | <Square2> | is there some way to test template haskell output except -ddump-splices? Either in ghci or using some "to text" method on a template haskell generator function? |
| 22:24:59 | Googulator16 | is now known as Googulator |
| 22:26:47 | <c_wraith> | So you can splice expressions into ghci, like so: |
| 22:27:05 | <c_wraith> | ghci> $([| 1 |]) |
| 22:27:05 | <c_wraith> | ---> 1 |
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| 22:27:54 | <c_wraith> | But if you want to introspect further, you can use runIO |
| 22:28:02 | <c_wraith> | err, runQ |
| 22:28:04 | <c_wraith> | ghci> runQ [| 1 |] |
| 22:28:04 | <c_wraith> | LitE (IntegerL 1) |
| 22:28:39 | <c_wraith> | Between the two of those, your ability to check most stuff should be good |
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| 22:30:59 | <Square2> | ops.. missed this. |
| 22:31:24 | <Square2> | I resorted to an LLM. 1 out of 4 suggestions actually worked. |
| 22:31:44 | <Square2> | `dump :: Ppr a => Q a -> IO () ; dump q = putStrLn . pprint =<< runQ q` |
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| 22:32:41 | <c_wraith> | You can also introspect the output of a QuasiQuoter by making use of the fact that they're just regular haskell values, and you can use their API: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.23.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH-Quote.html |
| 22:36:00 | <Square2> | c_wraith, thanks! |
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