Logs on 2025-12-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:01:13 | <Axman6> | iqubic: you probably want :load not :module |
| 01:01:32 | <Axman6> | uh.... apparently I was very scrolled up, oops |
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| 01:04:01 | <geekosaur> | not with cabal repl, that'll unload the whole component |
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| 01:04:31 | <geekosaur> | they wanted to select a particular module out of the loaded modules |
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| 04:20:40 | <haskellbridge> | <zoil> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/rhUxMwxtLNxEouwGoREUnbyb/Yv5YLdaJbOA/image.png |
| 04:20:42 | <haskellbridge> | <zoil> someone sends me 15 btc then i will share my code with them |
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| 08:10:20 | <lucabtz> | is it fine to have an Applicative instance be partial? or it is better i just make separate functions with same signatures as Applicative |
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| 08:13:34 | <dminuoso> | lucabtz: Do you just intend to define <*> but not pure? |
| 08:14:21 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-6.0.1/docs/Data-Functor-Apply.html#t:Apply |
| 08:14:53 | <dminuoso> | And in case you just care about pure, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pointed-5.0.5/docs/Data-Pointed.html#t:Pointed |
| 08:16:01 | <[exa]> | reading the wiki here https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Top_level_mutable_state it says "In contrast, other 'approved' uses of unsafePerformIO are perfectly safe." |
| 08:16:08 | <[exa]> | ...is that a joke? (can't tell) |
| 08:16:54 | <[exa]> | lucabtz: probably depends on how much partial |
| 08:17:44 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: Of course "approved" is quite a nebulous term. If "approved" means "perfectly safe", that statement is absolutely correct. |
| 08:17:54 | <jackdk> | lucabtz: I would write code against a different typeclass (class Apply from semigroupoids, for example) or provide a different named function. The benefit of a programming culture where people only write complete and lawful instances, is that anyone writing polymorphic code can expect their code to work for any instance, instead of for "any instance except a growing list of exceptions" |
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| 08:18:57 | <dminuoso> | Plus, you may later refactor and reuse some other library that imposes a `Applicative` constraint - it may not even be obvious that you're tapping into a bottom. It's a mine waiting to be stepped on. |
| 08:19:24 | <jackdk> | I personally also shy away from using `class Pointed`, for reasons Ed writes about at https://wiki.haskell.org/Why_not_Pointed%3F |
| 08:21:53 | <ski> | > (0 :: Natural) - 1 |
| 08:21:57 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: arithmetic underflow |
| 08:22:10 | <[exa]> | naturally... |
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| 08:24:43 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: well that gives kinda circular definition of approved :D |
| 08:24:53 | <dminuoso> | Of course. |
| 08:25:12 | <[exa]> | "it works" |
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| 08:30:55 | <lucabtz> | dminuoso no both pure and <*>, but <*> will be a partial function |
| 08:32:19 | <lucabtz> | i have a type Grid a which is a grid of data and i want something similar to numpy's broadcasting |
| 08:33:26 | <lucabtz> | i need a function Grid (a -> b) -> Grid a -> Grid b which is <*>, but this needs to work only if broadcasting is possible (so for some conditions over the grids width and height) |
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| 08:33:36 | <lucabtz> | pure can just embed in a 1x1 Grid |
| 08:35:02 | <lucabtz> | by partial i mean it will call error if broadcasting is not possible |
| 08:35:41 | <lucabtz> | maybe it is just better to have another function for all of this so i can put HasCallStack too, even if it will have the same signature as <*> |
| 08:37:29 | <ski> | when is it possible/impossible ? |
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| 08:39:07 | <lucabtz> | either widths are equal or some are 1 and same for height |
| 08:39:53 | <lucabtz> | if you have say (w, 1) (w, h) the result is (w, h) and the first one is broadcasted to (w, h) by repeating the row h times over the columns |
| 08:40:28 | <lucabtz> | technically i suppose you could weaken the constraint with divisibility instead of 1, but it is not like that in numpy |
| 08:40:41 | <lucabtz> | *instead of equality to 1 |
| 08:40:49 | <ski> | (m0 == m1 || any (1 ==) [m0,m1]) && (n0 == n1 || any (1 ==) [n0,n1]) -- ? |
| 08:41:05 | <lucabtz> | yep |
| 08:42:24 | <ski> | if you take assocative law, such that all applications on one side satisfies this condition, do the ones on the other side also satisfy it ? |
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| 08:43:44 | <ski> | (and similarly for the other laws) |
| 08:44:39 | <ski> | it'd be annoying, if rewriting a total use, with one of the laws, would give a partial use |
| 08:45:16 | <ski> | btw, i'd probably just define a separate function |
| 08:45:49 | <ski> | (i don't much like this kind of implicit broadcasting) |
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| 08:55:06 | <lucabtz> | im a bit confused by what associative law you are speaking about |
| 08:55:18 | <lucabtz> | <*> is not associative |
| 08:55:39 | <lucabtz> | though i agree it would make more sense to keep it a separate function |
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| 09:08:28 | <ski> | u <*> (v <*> w) = pure (.) <*> u <*> v <*> w -- <https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia#Laws_2> |
| 09:08:40 | <ski> | that law is a kind of associativity law |
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| 09:10:50 | <lucabtz> | if you mean that it does satisfy it i believe, the constraint becomes for each width and height that all the ones that are not equal to each other are 1 |
| 09:12:43 | <ski> | (do note that `pure (.) <*> u <*> v <*> w' means `((pure (.) <*> u) <*> v) <*> w', so that that side is left-associated) |
| 09:13:05 | <ski> | liftA2 (\a (b,c) -> (a,b,c)) ia (liftA2 (,) ib ic) = liftA2 (\(a,b) c -> (a,b,c)) (liftA2 (,) ia ib) ic -- same law, in terms of `liftA2', and tuples, might make the name "associativity" more reasonable |
| 09:13:16 | <lucabtz> | yeah i get what you mean |
| 09:14:47 | <ski> | liftA2 (uncurry . f) ia (liftA2 (,) ib ic) = liftA2 (uncurry f) (liftA2 (,) ia ib) ic -- or, with an arbitrary function `f', rather than triples |
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| 09:15:38 | <lucabtz> | it's okay i understood already from u <*> (v <*> w) = pure (.) <*> u <*> v <*> w |
| 09:16:16 | <lucabtz> | it's not literal associativity of <*> but i get it makes sense to call is associativity |
| 09:16:53 | <lucabtz> | literal associativity of <*> makes no sense because the domains of the operator on the left and right are different |
| 09:17:38 | <ski> | anyway, the question is whether in `(M * N) * O' and `M * (N * O)', where `*' is some operation doing this kind of broadcasting, whether `M * N' and then `(M * N) * O' is well-defined is equivalent to `N * O' and then `M * (N * O)' being well-defined |
| 09:19:03 | <lucabtz> | i still think it is satified by broadcasting, for example say in order you have (w, 1) <*> (1, h) <*> (w, h), associating on the left you have (w, 1) <*> (1, h) = (w, h) and then (w, h) <*> (w, h) = (w, h), on the right (1, h) <*> (w, h) = (w, h) and then (w, 1) <*> (w, h) = (w, h) |
| 09:19:49 | <ski> | (yea .. in terms of `liftA2 (,) :: Applicative i => i a -> i b -> i (a,b)', we're asking whether this operation is associative, up to reassociating the `((a,b),c)' vs. `(a,(b,c))' in the result. it's just that we then have rexpressed this (not "on the nose") associative law in terms of its equivalent condition in terms of `(<*>)') |
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| 09:22:21 | <ski> | hm, yea, i think you're right (after pondering the conditions) |
| 09:22:24 | <lucabtz> | i dont see why associativity wouldnt be satified here because this is just about tiling up the grids to match the bigger grid, if the grids are all equal then associativity is a consequence of associativity of ., if some have dimension 1 it shouldn't matter when you tile them bigger |
| 09:23:01 | <lucabtz> | though honestly idk if it is so trivial to come up with an actual proof, maybe it is |
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| 09:28:35 | <ski> | you just have to handle all the cases |
| 09:28:58 | <lucabtz> | i suppose maybe it can be shown for 1D grids where there a are few cases and then handled inductively for all dimensions |
| 09:29:45 | <ski> | since it is uniform in the dimensions, you only need to consider an arbitrary dimension, yes |
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| 16:01:06 | <iqubic> | Does using the HLint HLS plugin require the HLint package to be on my path? |
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| 16:26:39 | <tomsmeding> | iqubic: hlint should be linked into HLS already, no need to separately install hlint |
| 16:28:10 | <tomsmeding> | it uses hlint as a library https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/blob/master/plugins/hls-hlint-plugin/src/Ide/Plugin/Hlint.hs#L105 |
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| 17:05:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> My brain has been whirring on how to create strict unboxed Sequences, the way there are strict unboxed Vectors in the vector library. |
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| 17:15:27 | <c_wraith> | With what constraints? |
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| 18:44:19 | <tomsmeding> | Zemyla: do you mean Data.Seq, i.e. finger trees? |
| 18:44:41 | <tomsmeding> | there's so many pointers in there that one extra pointer to the elements is hardly the performance bottleneck |
| 18:45:08 | <tomsmeding> | (I guess it might help a little) |
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| 18:49:49 | <[exa]> | C++esque deque comes to mind as useful alternative |
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| 18:53:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Well, it'd allow tighter packing in a number of instances. |
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| 18:54:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> The best example is Bool, where a Node (Node (Node Bool)), which can contain between 8 and 27 Bools, can fit in a Word32 because its length is at most 5 bits. |
| 18:56:06 | <[exa]> | maybe check out what text editors use, they should have some kind of related rope structure |
| 18:58:06 | <[exa]> | (editors like yi or so) |
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| 20:01:07 | <c_wraith> | I mean, you probably want some kind of B-Tree or something |
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| 20:02:24 | <EvanR> | it seems like a text editor could get away with an ordered set of lines, and the lines are packed? for most usecases |
| 20:03:00 | <EvanR> | then you open a giant file with no newlines and it freezes the computer |
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| 20:04:38 | <[exa]> | yeah afaik the usual rope structures kinda look like B-trees, with size annotations to allow fast seeks |
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| 20:05:14 | <[exa]> | and a veeeeeery wide lower lever |
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| 21:08:39 | <Wygulmage> | Is it possible to use a rewrite rule on a class-generic function for one instance that has a constraint? For example an instance `Ord a => C (Set a)` and a function `delete` constrained by `C` but not `Ord a`. I want to rewrite `delete` (of the correct type) to `Data.Set.delete`, but the rule can't seem to pull in the `Ord` constraint from the |
| 21:08:40 | <Wygulmage> | class instance. |
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| 21:41:12 | <[exa]> | Wygulmage: that sounds like trying to make a typeclass instance that says "everything except this one" ? |
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| 21:45:27 | <[exa]> | Wygulmage: nevertheless, wouldn't the example with genericLookup/Int here https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/rewrite_rules.html#specialisation work for that case without much issues? |
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| 21:59:42 | <EvanR> | is there a typeclass instance that says "everything everywhere all at once" ? |
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| 22:10:31 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: it rather sounds like they have `class C a where delete :: a -> a` (guessing some type for delete here) and an `instance Ord a => C (Set a) where delete = ...`, and they want to have a RULE that rewrites `delete :: Set a -> Set a` to some function with type `Ord a => Set a -> Set a` |
| 22:11:06 | <tomsmeding> | Wygulmage: what if you just add the Ord constraint on the LHS of the RULE? |
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