Logs on 2025-12-06 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:53:25 | <Pozyomka> | Sorry, not exactly a Haskell question, but how usable is Waymonad today? My xmonad.hs is, like, 10 lines long. I replace 3 things in the default configuration, launch xmonad with xmobar, and that's it. |
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| 02:01:05 | <geekosaur> | not |
| 02:01:30 | <geekosaur> | all the attempts to rewrite xmonad for wayland keep dying 😞 |
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| 02:31:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> why is that |
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| 02:44:46 | <Pozyomka> | geekosaur: Ah, thanks. |
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| 02:57:54 | <geekosaur> | sm: because with wayland you need to implement a full compositor/display server (the protocol considers window manager information privileged, unlike X11 which exposes it to any client that listens on the root window). the original waymonad "works" but is based on a crashy old version of wlroots. later attempts have stalled trying to make bindings for modern wlroots |
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| 04:21:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> geekosaur thanks. I don't entirely understand but it's interesting |
| 04:23:03 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> interacting with wayland generally requires an independent implementation of its complex protocol/functionality - would that be a fair statement ? |
| 04:23:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> from afar, progress on wayland things always seem to move rather slowly |
| 04:23:52 | <geekosaur> | clients don't have to be reimplemented, but services in general must be built into the display server/compositor |
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| 04:24:18 | <geekosaur> | which is why both gnome and kde are monoliths (gnome-shell and plasma, respectively) |
| 04:24:49 | <geekosaur> | the flip side being that even minimalist "window managers" have to come with a full window server and compositor built in |
| 04:24:59 | <geekosaur> | see for example sway |
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| 04:28:51 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> so wlroots is a C library that does the hard wayland stuff, and the problem in haskell land is making good bindings for it ? Is that a hard problem or just a tedious/boring one ? |
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| 04:29:04 | <geekosaur> | someone did propose a protocol for external wayland window managers and such, but it was shot down due to security complications. (see Xsecurity, and how difficult it is to configure meaningful security without breaking window management or other things you really need to work) |
| 04:29:42 | <geekosaur> | it has complications, mostly due to a lot of things being raw pointers in the usual C style |
| 04:29:51 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 👀 |
| 04:30:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> gotcha. So probably this is a bit easier to do in rust or zig |
| 04:31:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> at least until that next-gen haskell-C bindings generator arrives |
| 04:31:45 | <geekosaur> | right. and there are IIRC wlroots bindings for both. (I saw bindings for zig and go and even experimental ocaml bindings; I may have missed rust bindings, or they're not in sway's github but rather the freedesktop gitlab with wlroots itself, or somewhere else.) |
| 04:32:27 | <geekosaur> | also wlroots is roots . it's not a full compositor library, just the bones of one and you need to provide the sinews |
| 04:35:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I see https://github.com/Smithay/smithay |
| 04:36:34 | <geekosaur> | looks to me less like wlroots bindings than a wlroots equivalent in rust |
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| 05:13:28 | haskellbridge | sm goes down a wayland rabbit hole .. cool stuff |
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| 16:07:49 | <geekosaur> | after sleeping on it, it does make me wonder if they mde their own for the same reason that waymonad was abandoned and the attempts to make haskell bindings for wlroots failed |
| 16:08:27 | <geekosaur> | i.e. there's just something difficult about all those pointers that makes them not play well with either rust or haskell |
| 16:08:52 | <geekosaur> | that said, maybe I should poke at the ocaml bindings |
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| 19:20:36 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Maybe bypassing wlroots could let haskell use some own strengths too better. |
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| 19:26:08 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> iirc it has some declarative specification that could be used to autogenerate stuff |
| 19:29:03 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Yes, it has XML, perhaps it's possible to autogenerate code for it in haskell with more safety than in C :P |
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| 20:13:34 | <[exa]> | is there some good overview of how wayland actually does the windowmanaging stuff? (for people untouched by wayland so far) |
| 20:13:47 | <[exa]> | cc geekosaur ^ |
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| 20:21:03 | <yushyin> | [exa]: xdg-shell is the basic protocol for the window managing stuff, but you should read about the wayland protocol design first. https://wayland-book.com/ this might be a ok starting point |
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| 20:25:35 | <yushyin> | I've toyed around with wlroots a bit in haskell, and I got to the point where I could spawn clients that were rendering correctly and worked xD But I never got any further than that, lack of time and all that |
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| 20:54:17 | <geekosaur> | I don't really know, or I'd be at least helping out with the waymonad stuff instead of cheering from the sidelines 😞 |
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| 20:57:53 | <davean> | Every time I've looked in at waymonad I've been confused about the things they were running into issues with, like I don't get why they have issues with the bindings |
| 21:00:48 | <davean> | I've not gotten into it much but I really have wondered whats going on with them running into issues with the parts I think should be the easy parts |
| 21:02:48 | <geekosaur> | one would think, sadly that's exactly where waymonad and the new attempt failed. I don't know why either but suspect I won't do any better if I try to pick up e.g. the work done by the folks on discourse (look for "wlroots" and "tinywl-hs") |
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| 21:05:13 | <davean> | I mean I looked at some of that code and I was lacking the context for why they went about it the way they did |
| 21:05:16 | <davean> | it confused me |
| 21:07:43 | <davean> | Their custom Setup.hs stuff, all the hand done stuff for straight bindings ... |
| 21:07:57 | <davean> | I didn't even see places it would differ from the automation |
| 21:08:00 | <davean> | so very confused |
| 21:08:45 | <davean> | I didn't get deep enough into them to figure it out |
| 21:09:38 | <davean> | I did see people worrying about pause times, but I didn't even see discussions of the pauseless GC or seperating out a rendering process from a control process or anything |
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| 21:10:20 | <davean> | like I'd probably go about running a pauseless-GC renderer with a standard control process and make the control process restartable but the renderer not. |
| 21:10:45 | <davean> | It seemed like everyone got on the same page of how to go about those projects somewhere else that I couldn't find |
| 21:10:59 | <davean> | and I was missing something huge reading the discussions about it |
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| 21:13:40 | <davean> | One could also have a realtime thread for the renderer, but that wouldn't accomplish the restart portion, one could use something like hint for the config and update the datastructure for the renderer ... |
| 21:13:47 | <davean> | but that wouldn't be as clean IMO |
| 21:14:51 | <davean> | Lots of worry about a thing, but I never found the discussion of how they settled on that thing, etc |
| 21:18:12 | <[exa]> | interesting |
| 21:18:19 | <[exa]> | yushyin: thanks! |
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| 21:26:16 | <hololeap> | can someone help me understand this error? http://dpaste.com/F4ATVZPHF |
| 21:26:24 | <hololeap> | source code: http://dpaste.com/69GNP6AQJ |
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| 21:27:57 | <int-e> | hololeap: my guess would be that http://dpaste.com/69GNP6AQJ |
| 21:28:00 | <int-e> | sorry |
| 21:28:02 | <hololeap> | I'm trying to make it so that it enforces that any MatchLogic defined in an instance of IsDepSet must be a Mond |
| 21:28:09 | <hololeap> | *Monad |
| 21:28:20 | <int-e> | ...that MatchLogic is a 3 argument type family and you can't have partially applied type families. |
| 21:30:04 | <int-e> | or a type synonym, as the error says; the story is the same: you can't use them partially applied |
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| 21:31:25 | <hololeap> | I read here that "type synonym family" is just a type family: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23860 |
| 21:31:54 | <hololeap> | is this just a limitation of GHC? something that could be implemented in the future? |
| 21:35:23 | <hololeap> | if I change it to: |
| 21:35:26 | <hololeap> | class (forall (m :: Maybe MatchMode). Ord (MatchLogic t m DepSpec)) |
| 21:35:30 | <geekosaur> | I think there's a [proposal for it, but it is actually hard given how ghc works iirc |
| 21:35:56 | <hololeap> | it's the same error, so it doesn't seem to only be due to partial application |
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| 21:37:03 | <hololeap> | http://dpaste.com/BJFDH62NW |
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| 21:55:44 | <int-e> | Maybe not excactly a partial application, but how is the compiler supposed to check a constraint like (forall (m :: Maybe MatchMode). Monad (MatchLogic t m))? |
| 21:56:58 | <int-e> | (I'm pretty sure that there's nothing in the type checker that would enumerate all possible values of the `Maybe MatchMode` type; you'll have to do that yourself.) |
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| 21:57:38 | <hololeap> | ok. that makes sense |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-12-06.