Logs on 2025-12-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:29:46 | <weary-traveler> | it should be possible to do "stack install $pkg" to build a package binary from hackage, correct? |
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| 04:30:21 | <weary-traveler> | if so, how do i find out the location of the built artifacts? |
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| 04:38:10 | <geekosaur> | default is ~/.local/bin |
| 04:39:57 | <geekosaur> | https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/configure/yaml/non-project/#local-bin-path |
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| 04:47:43 | <weary-traveler> | yeah, that's what i thought. odd. i don't see it there. |
| 04:47:56 | <weary-traveler> | package in question is citeproc |
| 04:51:09 | <geekosaur> | "Unlike pandoc-citeproc, this library does not provide an executable. It will be used in pandoc itself to provide integrated citation support and bibliography format conversion (so the pandoc-citeproc filter will no longer be necessary)." |
| 04:51:58 | <geekosaur> | hm, although the cabal file does indeed list a citeproc executable |
| 04:52:30 | <geekosaur> | oh, I see. you need to enable the "executable" flag to get it |
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| 04:54:06 | <geekosaur> | stack install --flag citeproc:executable citeproc |
| 04:55:53 | <weary-traveler> | ah it only did the lib by default |
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| 04:59:47 | <weary-traveler> | geekosaur: thanks! |
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| 11:58:01 | <gentauro> | I'm trying to build https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplexmq (with) stack (adding stack.yaml after git clone) but I get this error (not helpfull at all): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0zfYeUxQ Any suggestions? |
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| 16:10:31 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: nice, very helpful error. Could it be that it ran out of memory and was killed by the OOM killer? |
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| 17:07:34 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: I doubt it. I have like +30 GB of free mem when it shows that. And since it's like 154 / 155. It takes 3 min to reproduce :-\ |
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| 19:20:29 | <milan2> | Hello is there something like >>= but for different types? I have "Either" and I want to chain it with "Maybe" so Left goes to Nothing and Right to Just? |
| 19:23:17 | <gentauro> | milan2: I don't know about operators, but, Hoogle is your friend ;) `https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=Either%20a%20b%20-%3E%20Maybe%20a` |
| 19:24:05 | <int-e> | :t listToMaybe . rights . pure |
| 19:24:06 | <lambdabot> | Either a1 a2 -> Maybe a2 |
| 19:24:29 | <int-e> | (very intuitive ;-) ) |
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| 19:25:27 | <gentauro> | int-e: and you only rely on `base`. That's nice :) |
| 19:25:44 | <gentauro> | :t rights |
| 19:25:45 | <lambdabot> | [Either a b] -> [b] |
| 19:26:26 | <milan2> | gentauro: TY, I didn't know I can search by type signature. Thank you int-e :) |
| 19:27:00 | <int-e> | :t \e -> do Right a <- pure e; pure a |
| 19:27:01 | <lambdabot> | MonadFail m => Either a b -> m b |
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| 19:27:18 | <gentauro> | milan2: This is actually the right signature to search for -> https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=Either%20a%20b%20-%3E%20Maybe%20b `Either a b -> Maybe b` |
| 19:28:11 | <gentauro> | https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.12.2/docs/src/GHC.Data.Maybe.html#rightToMaybe |
| 19:28:25 | <milan2> | Yeah I am looking at that right now :) |
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| 19:53:35 | <chromoblob> | why not `return` |
| 19:54:20 | <monochrom> | We like the name "pure" more. :) |
| 19:54:43 | <int-e> | it only took a decade to retrain myself to actually use `pure`. |
| 19:55:16 | <monochrom> | I just installed a new device driver in my head. :) |
| 19:55:37 | <int-e> | chromoblob: `pure` is shorter and doesn't have the misleading imperative programming connotations that `return` has. |
| 19:55:49 | <monochrom> | Yeah I like shorter too. :) |
| 19:56:27 | <int-e> | > (do return 1; return 2) :: Maybe Int |
| 19:56:28 | <monochrom> | When I teach a language course, my excuse for saying "term" for "expression" is: "term" is shorter. :) |
| 19:56:28 | <lambdabot> | Just 2 |
| 19:56:51 | <int-e> | monochrom: I'm all for short term rewards as well. |
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| 19:57:25 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 20:03:35 | <chromoblob> | `return` is historic |
| 20:04:06 | <monochrom> | `pure` is modern :) |
| 20:04:40 | <chromoblob> | also, `return` signifies that you're using Monad |
| 20:05:56 | <monochrom> | IMO unimportant. |
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| 20:10:11 | <monochrom> | Eq has (==), Ord is a subclass, and we don't propose to add (===) to Ord to be a synonym of (==) such that when we compare two integers we use (===) to "signify that I'm using Ord". |
| 20:10:38 | <monochrom> | If `return` is historic, then it means that it was a historical mistake. |
| 20:11:23 | <monochrom> | Or more moderately, s/mistake/oversight/ |
| 20:13:11 | <c_wraith> | oversight would be accurate, I think. No one had yet realized that Applicative was a useful middle ground. |
| 20:13:27 | <int-e> | Or maybe in 1998 Haskell was less concerned with applications. |
| 20:14:07 | <int-e> | (remember when it was called "Idiom" for a while... that would've been awful.) |
| 20:14:43 | <monochrom> | Monad was called "triple" at the beginning, too. :) |
| 20:15:24 | <Rembane> | That's a way less scary word! :D |
| 20:15:26 | <c_wraith> | I don't think Applicative was really recognized as useful (in two directions - rich enough to have practical applications, simple enough that it can have useful instances that can't be monads) until the development of applicative parsers |
| 20:15:38 | <int-e> | Rembane: but it's way too generic |
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| 20:15:59 | <int-e> | Rembane: It's like calling a company Meta because it's about something. ;-) |
| 20:16:47 | <monochrom> | Hey wouldn't it be nice! class Tuploid f where pure :: a -> f a; (<*>) :: f a -> f b -> f (a,b); class Tuploid f => Triploid f where (>>=) :: ... |
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| 20:17:04 | <Rembane> | int-e: Indeed, it doesn't mean anything. :) |
| 20:17:05 | <int-e> | (FWIW I call the underlying failed product Facebook 3D out of spite.) |
| 20:17:42 | <monochrom> | Alpha and Meta :) |
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| 20:18:18 | <Rembane> | There was something in the regular automata course that was a quintuple of "basically trivial things" I can't remember what though, maybe a turing machine or regular expression or something. |
| 20:20:58 | <int-e> | one way to get a quintuple is to have symbols, states, accepting states, rejecting states, transitions |
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| 20:22:03 | <int-e> | Which you might do for a Turing machine. Another way is to split transitions into transitions and epsilon-transitions, but not have rejecting states... so a typical NFA. |
| 20:23:52 | <Rembane> | Both sound distantly familiar, so at least one of those. |
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| 20:42:14 | <c_wraith> | woo, I got a practical example of unsafeInterleaveST breaking "pure" code! |
| 20:42:25 | <milan2> | Guyz I am thinking about prorotyping web app. Async is a big thing in IO heavy apps. Can I expect that I will be able to create fully async web api from fully async db client, http client and |
| 20:42:28 | <milan2> | ? |
| 20:44:48 | <[exa]> | milan2: in short yes |
| 20:45:30 | <c_wraith> | I decided to go back and rewrite Day 8 of the AoC using ST to make all the updates O(1) instead of just throwing all the indirection into a Map. It turned out slower, and I realized this was due to a loss of laziness from generating a summary of the disjoint set strictly at every iteration even though it was only used once. |
| 20:46:27 | <c_wraith> | I threw in an unsafeInterleaveST to recover laziness, but I was already using unsafeInterleaveST to run Kruskal's algorithm on demand. |
| 20:47:03 | <c_wraith> | Thus I introduced an order dependence in a "pure" expression. |
| 20:47:13 | <c_wraith> | The moral of the story: immutability is pretty cool. |
| 20:48:51 | <c_wraith> | (It also only sped up to matching performance when I introduced that problem. Not a win!) |
| 20:49:02 | <[exa]> | milan2: in longer, make a stupid serial prototype first and then you can switch the backend for whichever concurrent webserver matches your expected workload |
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| 20:50:48 | <[exa]> | c_wraith: nice way to show that tbh |
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| 20:52:01 | <milan2> | [exa]: ty |
| 20:52:51 | <c_wraith> | I could probably make it a lot faster if I went with an array representation instead of STRef chasing. But I'd still lose on laziness unless I changed a lot of the API. |
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| 20:53:41 | <c_wraith> | Also, doing it via STRef chasing is *hard*. So many fiddly details. I wanted to practice with them. |
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| 21:13:58 | <gentauro> | chromoblob: but int-e is using `do-notation` so it's also `Monadic` right? |
| 21:14:07 | <gentauro> | you can see that from the signature |
| 21:14:23 | <c_wraith> | > do () |
| 21:14:24 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 21:14:25 | <gentauro> | I recall Marlow expanding `Applicative` to have `do-notation` as well |
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| 21:14:28 | <c_wraith> | () is monadic now |
| 21:14:37 | <gentauro> | but, You needed to do a bit more |
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| 21:14:51 | <c_wraith> | there is an ApplicativeDo extension |
| 21:15:19 | <c_wraith> | It attempts to convert a do block into uses of <*> and <$> with a lot of tupling |
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| 21:15:58 | <gentauro> | https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3341694 |
| 21:16:12 | <c_wraith> | If it fails to do that conversion, it uses the standard >> and >>= desugaring |
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| 21:18:44 | <gentauro> | I just find the `(\ _ x _ -> x) <$> foo <*> bar <*> baz` more readable than anything else. I rarely use (as in never) monands when I do monadic parsing. |
| 21:18:53 | <gentauro> | monadic parsing = parser combinators |
| 21:19:07 | <gentauro> | (bad habbits kicking in xD) |
| 21:20:18 | <gentauro> | `… <$> … <*> …` combined with `<|>` (Alternate) and you are good to go :) |
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| 21:39:37 | <c_wraith> | gentauro: you genually need monadic parsing when the source is context-sensitive. Applicative + Alternative doesn't give you a way to choose parsers based on a value previously parsed. |
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| 22:29:02 | <chromoblob> | c_wraith: how is () a Monad? there is no type parameter in (), and a monad must have a parameter |
| 22:29:22 | <chromoblob> | :t () |
| 22:29:23 | <lambdabot> | () |
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| 22:38:48 | <davean> | chromoblob: that do uses no nonactic things, so it entails no monad class functions |
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| 22:39:30 | <davean> | Thus nothing contradicts it |
| 22:39:34 | <chromoblob> | :t return 5 :: () |
| 22:39:35 | <lambdabot> | error: [GHC-83865] |
| 22:39:35 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘()’ with actual type ‘m0 a0’ |
| 22:39:35 | <lambdabot> | • In the expression: return 5 :: () |
| 22:40:13 | <davean> | Yes, because that *does* entail Monad because you used return |
| 22:40:17 | <chromoblob> | :t do (); () |
| 22:40:18 | <lambdabot> | error: [GHC-83865] |
| 22:40:18 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘m a0’ with actual type ‘()’ |
| 22:40:18 | <lambdabot> | • In a stmt of a 'do' block: () |
| 22:40:55 | <davean> | :t do (); |
| 22:40:55 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 22:40:57 | <chromoblob> | so, what can i do with this? why make `do` behave so? |
| 22:41:17 | <davean> | Its not making it do behave so, its what do is. |
| 22:41:55 | <davean> | Do desugars procedurally, via monad functions, or applicitive, none of those are used so the resultant code has no issues |
| 22:42:03 | <davean> | do () just becomes () |
| 22:42:16 | <davean> | () is a value and nothing in your do interacts with it |
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| 22:42:26 | <tomsmeding> | 'do' is syntactic sugar: 'do a; b' ~> 'a >> b'; 'do x <- a; b' ~> 'a >>= \x -> b'; 'do let { x = a }; b' ~> 'let x = a in b'; 'do a' ~> 'a' |
| 22:42:26 | <chromoblob> | :t do pure 5 |
| 22:42:27 | <lambdabot> | (Applicative f, Num a) => f a |
| 22:42:37 | <chromoblob> | :t do return 5 |
| 22:42:38 | <lambdabot> | (Monad m, Num a) => m a |
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| 22:42:49 | <tomsmeding> | a trivial 'do' like 'do ()' falls in the final, default case and just desugars to '()' |
| 22:43:08 | <davean> | do is a way of templating out code |
| 22:43:22 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage acme-dont |
| 22:43:22 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-dont |
| 22:44:38 | <davean> | chromoblob: the problem here is you think "do" is something it isn't |
| 22:45:46 | <chromoblob> | ok, i see, `do` is a sugar which desugars trivially in `do x` case |
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| 22:46:13 | <chromoblob> | i might have known/learned this in past, i just forgot |
| 22:46:56 | <tomsmeding> | (you can observe this desugaring even more directly if you turn on RebindableSyntax, which just calls whatever (>>=) and (>>) are in scope https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/rebindable_syntax.html#extension-RebindableSyntax ) |
| 22:47:25 | <tomsmeding> | (I omitted 'fail' from my desugaring above) |
| 22:47:49 | <davean> | Thats because fail is an error |
| 22:48:01 | <tomsmeding> | it is in the desugaring though |
| 22:48:35 | <davean> | Not if you don't fuck up designing the language |
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| 23:04:43 | <dolio> | It's fine, just don't put it in Monad. |
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| 23:06:01 | <dolio> | Originally I think failable patterns would desugar to MonadZero. |
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| 23:17:31 | <jackdk> | The H98 report, s3.14, desugars `do { p <- e; stmts }` to `let { ok p = do {stmts}; ok _ = fail "..." in e >>= ok }` |
| 23:18:07 | <jackdk> | (And specifies that `fail` is an operation of `class Monad`) |
| 23:19:50 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> "do" can be used in pure code to together with BlockArguments kill even more parentheses :P |
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| 23:24:14 | <chromoblob> | ... = ... $ do ... |
| 23:24:43 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> +to |
| 23:24:56 | <chromoblob> | `$` is how i kill parentheses :p |
| 23:28:38 | <chromoblob> | and i have even defined `($$) = flip ($)` in past, to do `... $$ ... $$ ...` - iirc |
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| 23:44:09 | <jackdk> | chromoblob: Your ($$) is (Data.Function.&), since base-4.8 (ghc 7.10.1, April 2015) |
| 23:45:24 | <chromoblob> | yeah, i did this in 2014 lol |
| 23:45:37 | <chromoblob> | :i & |
| 23:45:48 | <chromoblob> | no work... |
| 23:46:10 | <jackdk> | % :i & |
| 23:46:10 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:1: error: [GHC-76037] Not in scope: ‘&’ |
| 23:46:53 | <geekosaur> | % :i Data.Function.& |
| 23:46:53 | <yahb2> | (GHC.Internal.Data.Function.&) :: a -> (a -> b) -> b ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Internal.Data.Function’ ; infixl 1 GHC.Internal.Data.Function.& |
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| 23:54:46 | <chromoblob> | wait, i mixed it up |
| 23:55:15 | <chromoblob> | i mean that ($$) is same that ($) but has left associativity |
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| 23:55:31 | <chromoblob> | that -> as |
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