Logs on 2025-12-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 06:21:56 | <Axman6> | @unmtl ExceptT err (ReaderT conf IO) a |
| 06:21:56 | <lambdabot> | conf -> IO (Either err a) |
| 06:22:14 | <Axman6> | @ unmtl ReaderT conf (ExceptT err IO) a |
| 06:22:17 | <Axman6> | @unmtl ReaderT conf (ExceptT err IO) a |
| 06:22:17 | <lambdabot> | conf -> IO (Either err a) |
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| 07:08:53 | <Axman6> | Is there a good reason to pick one of these over the other? |
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| 07:28:36 | <int-e> | I don't know; the second one may save the compiler a tiny bit of work when simplifying >>= ? |
| 07:30:22 | <int-e> | (there's no behavioral difference) |
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| 08:05:55 | <Axman6> | yeah, I was wondering if there was a performance difference between the two |
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| 09:22:44 | <probie> | Axman6: I think the only way to accurately answer that question is to benchmark it |
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| 09:43:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> hmmm, playing around with Haskell-To-Rust FFI. Why are we claiming this is black magic again? |
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| 09:48:11 | <merijn> | Who is claiming what is black magic? |
| 09:49:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I just heard from humans that Haskell-Rust FFI is a pita. This seems easy, doable, and fun, at least at the hello world stage. |
| 09:49:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> What are you using for it? |
| 09:49:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Rust-to-haskell-via-c is a pain in the ass on both sides |
| 09:50:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I just generated a libffitest.a file from Cargo, dumped it into my cabal init folder |
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| 09:50:46 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> under cbits, then direct called with ccall |
| 09:51:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but ccall is old and iirc suspect, so i shuffled the cabal around a bit more, added a libffitest.h header in C |
| 09:51:25 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> swapped to capi |
| 09:51:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also I made sure there was #[unsafe(nomangle)] annotations and the extern "C" declaration. |
| 09:52:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> You are quite tolerant to pain I see |
| 09:52:38 | <merijn> | The Haskell FFI to C is pretty comfy imo, I would assume Rust's is too, so I wouldn't expect it to be particularly painful |
| 09:52:48 | <merijn> | Liamzee: ccall is not all all suspect |
| 09:52:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Also «easy, doable, and /fun/», really? |
| 09:53:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Morj: this isn't that painful, 5 minutes |
| 09:53:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I'm sure once it gets into sophisticated memory handling it's going to become nightmarish, especially under concurrent conditions |
| 09:53:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Mm, in my experience it's about the same nightmare as binding to c++ code |
| 09:53:46 | <merijn> | Liamzee: ccall is just the tradiational C ABI, with all limitations of that (i.e. no access to CPP, etc) |
| 09:53:53 | <merijn> | Morj: No, C++ is infinitely worse |
| 09:53:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> In general rust's typical approaches to memory are very similar to c++ |
| 09:54:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Hm, you think? Why? |
| 09:54:37 | <merijn> | Because C++ doesn't have any ABI defined at all |
| 09:54:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the worst part right now is that Cabal can't do this on its own, not without a custom Setup.hs |
| 09:54:46 | <merijn> | Liamzee: What? |
| 09:54:53 | <merijn> | What do you need a custom setup.hs for? |
| 09:55:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I mean «modern» c++ with smart pointers and stuff. If we're talking c++ with manual memory management, that's terrible, but that's also terrible to use from c++ |
| 09:55:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> ? I had to generate a static build artifact from Cargo |
| 09:55:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> then copy paste |
| 09:55:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> "ABI" - yes, but you do the same thing and export unmangled functions with C abi in c++ |
| 09:55:27 | <merijn> | Liamzee: Oh, cabal not being able to call cargo, yeah that's true |
| 09:55:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I read that Rust has cbindgen |
| 09:56:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I promised someone and I'll probably break the promise, to go give them FFI parquet support |
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| 09:56:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> so I took a look at Apache Arrow, and noped the hell out, am now considering whether I can do parquet-rs instead |
| 09:58:07 | <merijn> | Liamzee: FWIW cabal is pretty well-behaved when you call it from, e.g. a Makefile |
| 09:58:37 | <merijn> | I basically had a C++ + haskell project where I just had a makefile calling cabal to deal with building the haskell bits |
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| 09:59:58 | <merijn> | Liamzee: Anyway, I would generally *prefer* ccall over capi unless I specifically needed capi, for for example accessing CPP macros |
| 10:01:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i mean if i'm just doing things with Rust artifacts |
| 10:01:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I can probably live with ccall, right? |
| 10:02:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> still, so exciting, Haskell being a driver for Rust has been a dream of mine for years. I just thought it was black magic that required being at Serokell or Well-Typed to pull off |
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| 10:03:28 | <merijn> | Liamzee: The main difference is "ccall" directly generates code calling stuff according to C ABI. CAPI has GHC generating and compiling a C wrapper (using a C compiler) then calling that wrapper.Which is how it can access, e.g. CPP values, because the CPP is substituted in the generated C wrapper |
| 10:03:39 | <merijn> | But that C wrapper is extra indirection |
| 10:04:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> What serokell or well-typed are writing is even more magic, where they want to automatically interoperate between haskell and rust types, and not have to write foreign imports and exports |
| 10:04:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yup, i see the problem now, apparently GHCRTS and Rust will fight over ownership? |
| 10:05:06 | <merijn> | Liamzee: You'll just have to manually and explicitly manage ownership |
| 10:05:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> But the problem is that I can't do it all from the Haskell side, no? I'd have to go into the rust, manually edit stuff so it doesn't take ownership. Ugh. |
| 10:06:46 | <merijn> | Liamzee: I mean, in the haskell FFI you can manually do 'malloc' to get a pointer that doesn't get freed by Haskell in which case Rust can take ownership |
| 10:08:39 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Rust also doesn't have a stable abi, so the functions you export from rust are only going to have C compatible arguments, which are all Copy, so the ownership semantics happen a layer deeper |
| 10:09:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I mean in the Parquet case, this is looking as though it'd likely be a disaster, maybe I would have to go through the 2 million line Apache Arrow instead :( |
| 10:09:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> precisely, you DON'T want to copy |
| 10:10:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Like, if you have two functions: one accepting a Box<T>, and another &T - they both will be exported as accepting _const T, and_const T is safe to copy |
| 10:10:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Oops, my matrix client might have eaten the asterisks as the formatting |
| 10:11:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> *const T in both mentions |
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| 10:20:48 | <merijn> | I can't imagine Rust not supporting a non-copying pointer in unsafe |
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| 10:22:42 | <merijn> | Something like this SO answer? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54849928/how-can-one-force-rust-to-take-ownership-of-memory-allocated-other-than-by-its-s/54858033#54858033 |
| 10:25:08 | <merijn> | Similarly relevant? https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/17r7hf6/comment/k8h4hpw/ |
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| 13:16:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Clueless me running nix profile upgrade on a friday, and being hit with https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/467614 |
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| 14:55:49 | <yin> | is the mechanism that prevents me from writing (join bimap fromList) the DMR? |
| 14:57:35 | <yin> | when applied to something like (Map Char,Map Int) |
| 14:59:08 | <merijn> | :t bimap |
| 14:59:29 | <merijn> | hmm, lambdabot is dead? |
| 14:59:46 | <merijn> | I forgot, what was yahb's prompt? |
| 14:59:49 | <lambdabot> | Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> p a c -> p b d |
| 14:59:57 | <merijn> | oh just super slow |
| 15:00:21 | <merijn> | :t join bimap |
| 15:00:22 | <lambdabot> | Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> p a a -> p b b |
| 15:00:33 | <merijn> | :t join |
| 15:00:34 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m (m a) -> m a |
| 15:01:42 | <merijn> | That's not DMR at all |
| 15:02:09 | <merijn> | That's just the fact that join is resulting in constraints that 'a = c' and 'b = d' |
| 15:03:04 | <yin> | oh right |
| 15:03:38 | <yin> | so i need to write (bimap fromList fromList) |
| 15:03:41 | <yin> | shame |
| 15:03:52 | <merijn> | honestly, that's approximately 500% more readable anyway |
| 15:04:13 | <merijn> | And, like, literally only 4 characters longer than the join one |
| 15:04:52 | <mari-estel> | :t both |
| 15:04:53 | <lambdabot> | Bitraversable r => Traversal (r a a) (r b b) a b |
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| 15:06:44 | <yin> | sure, in this simplified instance |
| 15:06:51 | <yin> | this is what i'm writting https://paste.jrvieira.com/1766156784921 |
| 15:07:06 | <yin> | (join bimap) is a very common pattern for me |
| 15:07:10 | <yin> | oh well |
| 15:10:00 | × | fp quits (~Thunderbi@2001:708:150:10::7e06) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 15:10:58 | <Leary> | What's "the DMR"? |
| 15:11:50 | <yin> | mari-estel: is that a Lens thing? |
| 15:12:04 | <yin> | Leary: https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Monomorphism_restriction |
| 15:12:23 | <mari-estel> | arrow thing, i believe |
| 15:12:37 | <merijn> | Leary: Dread Monomorphism Restriction |
| 15:12:44 | <merijn> | @quote dmr |
| 15:12:45 | <lambdabot> | No quotes match. Whoa. |
| 15:12:45 | <yin> | Leary: "D" is for "Dreaded" |
| 15:13:02 | <merijn> | @quote dreaded |
| 15:13:03 | <lambdabot> | liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction. |
| 15:13:28 | <mari-estel> | :D |
| 15:13:43 | <merijn> | hmm, not quite what I was looking for |
| 15:15:04 | <Leary> | Okay, I guess I've heard that turn of phrase. Never seen it reduced to DMR though, only MMR. DMMR might be clearer. |
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| 15:27:35 | ski | . o O ( `join (,) (length :: (exists a. [a]) -> Int) :: ([a0] -> Int,[a1] -> Int)' ) |
| 15:35:43 | <lucabtz> | this is only slightly related but somthing i find confusing with nomenclature is that a monomorphic function and a monomorphism (in the categorical sense) have nothing to do with each other in haskell |
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| 15:37:39 | <merijn> | Why is that confusing? |
| 15:38:37 | <merijn> | The introduction of category theory vocabulary (i.e. monad and friends) was a rather later addition to Haskell, so most of the nomenclature is (mostly) unrelated to category theory |
| 15:39:27 | <merijn> | From a type theory persepctive monomorphic is just the antonym of polymorphic |
| 15:39:47 | <lucabtz> | it's confusing because for example holomorphism is the property associated to a holomorphic function in complex analysys, while monomorphism has nothing to do with a monomorphic function |
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| 15:40:14 | <lucabtz> | yeah the names make sense, the collision is just unfortunate |
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| 16:06:18 | <yin> | we can't have a single word for everything |
| 16:07:37 | <yin> | monomorphic just means "single form" so the mistake is to use the term alone without context |
| 16:08:16 | <yin> | i remember being confused when i learned about monadic functions in array languages |
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| 16:10:53 | <lucabtz> | yin: well technically we can have a single word for everything if we assume everything is numerable |
| 16:10:58 | <lucabtz> | *countable |
| 16:11:21 | <lucabtz> | but i agree it is not doable in practise |
| 16:11:48 | <lucabtz> | and yeah i was reading something about APL and i found monadic to be a confusing term too |
| 16:12:49 | <yin> | it doesn't help that we also have different terms for the same things |
| 16:13:53 | <lucabtz> | yeah sure |
| 16:14:11 | <yin> | not to get too metaphysical but i don't think these concepts are countable because they're buckets dividing reality into arbitrary chunks |
| 16:14:14 | <lucabtz> | however the same term for different things is worse |
| 16:14:46 | <lucabtz> | yin yes and no if you consider each real number to be something inside the everything |
| 16:15:23 | <yin> | that's a categorical problem |
| 16:15:54 | <yin> | ;) |
| 16:16:14 | <lucabtz> | though it is a practical problem, generally we have words for numbers, but clearly we can't name all the real ones |
| 16:16:24 | <lucabtz> | we just found names for a few significant ones |
| 16:16:58 | <merijn> | You can if you're an ultra-finitist |
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| 16:20:30 | <milan2> | Hello, sorry to interupt you guyz. :) Do you know if short-circuit foldl' is possible? |
| 16:21:46 | <geekosaur> | it's not AIUI |
| 16:23:20 | <milan2> | geekosaur: Sorry, if you replied to me I don't know what AIUI means. |
| 16:24:13 | <geekosaur> | "as I understand it" |
| 16:24:45 | <merijn> | > foldl' f z [a,b,c] |
| 16:24:47 | <lambdabot> | f (f (f z a) b) c |
| 16:24:51 | <geekosaur> | foldr's function is given a thunk representing the rest of the list, which it can choose to not evaluate and thereby short circuit. foldl/foldl' isn't |
| 16:25:00 | <merijn> | Define short-circuit |
| 16:25:13 | <merijn> | You can certainly short-circuit, but not without walking the entire list |
| 16:25:35 | <merijn> | oh, wait, no, it's foldl' |
| 16:25:38 | <merijn> | brainfart :) |
| 16:26:05 | <yin> | milan2: foldl' evaluates the accumulator to whnk, foldl doesn't. but both necessarily traverse the complete list |
| 16:26:31 | <yin> | s/whnk/whnf |
| 16:27:31 | <milan2> | Yeah got it.. but foldl should be able to short-circuit. I just have to write "correct" folding function for it. |
| 16:28:31 | <yin> | milan2: how do you figure? |
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| 16:29:26 | <milan2> | I was reading web and I understood it that it can? I might be able to find link. |
| 16:29:45 | <merijn> | milan2: Look at my example above :) |
| 16:29:51 | <merijn> | > foldl f z [a,b,c] |
| 16:29:52 | <lambdabot> | f (f (f z a) b) c |
| 16:31:10 | <milan2> | If we look only on c we might be able to short-circuit? |
| 16:31:33 | <milan2> | Thus no need for evaluating first argument? |
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| 16:32:37 | <merijn> | Right, but how do you do that without traversing the entire list? ;) |
| 16:33:15 | <merijn> | So you can short-circuit in skipping some evaluation of `f`, but you *have* to walk the list |
| 16:33:25 | <milan2> | I probably can't so this will not work on infinite lists. |
| 16:33:46 | <merijn> | What are you actually trying to do? |
| 16:34:16 | <milan2> | Advent of Code 2015 day 1 part 2 broke me :( |
| 16:35:10 | <milan2> | Like we need definitelly left fold, and we need to stop counting as soon as we count -1. |
| 16:35:55 | <yin> | > foldl' const 0 [undefined] |
| 16:35:57 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 16:36:07 | <yin> | > foldl' const 0 (repeat ()) |
| 16:36:24 | <lambdabot> | Terminated |
| 16:36:45 | <yin> | ironically, because it wouldn't terminate |
| 16:37:02 | <sprout> | use scan |
| 16:38:36 | <yin> | fun to see that i can press ctrl-c to halt `foldl const 0 (repeat ())` in ghci but not foldl' |
| 16:38:46 | <sprout> | scan will give you a list of numbers, and you can terminate when you hit -1 |
| 16:39:20 | <merijn> | 2025 you mean? :p |
| 16:39:31 | <yin> | sprout: scanr, which is foldr in disguise |
| 16:39:48 | <milan2> | sprout: So scan hmmm... or maybe custom self recursive function. |
| 16:40:14 | <merijn> | Avoiding spoilers, my implementation relied on mapAccumL |
| 16:40:17 | <merijn> | :t mapAccumL |
| 16:40:18 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (s -> a -> (s, b)) -> s -> t a -> (s, t b) |
| 16:40:21 | <milan2> | merijn: I started from begining. |
| 16:40:34 | <yin> | oh i used scanl |
| 16:40:54 | <merijn> | milan2: oh, then it's just coicidence your question seems related to this year's day 1 part 2 |
| 16:41:30 | <sprout> | I just throw an exception when I am lazy |
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| 16:45:32 | <probie> | For day 1, this year's was definitely annoying. I messed up day 1 part 2 on the first go, because I hadn't realised the values over 100 were in the data, since part 1 was all modulo 100 |
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| 16:47:25 | <yin> | milan2: good on you for starting at the beginning |
| 16:47:30 | <milan2> | I am glad I started with older ones. |
| 16:48:15 | <yin> | my day 1 this year: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1766162825403 |
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| 16:50:19 | <milan2> | Lovely really few lines of code even with IO and both parts. |
| 16:51:14 | <yin> | not the most readable, one can argue |
| 16:52:20 | <merijn> | yin: I always go for most readable and most correct: https://github.com/merijn/AdventOfCode/blob/master/Day1.hs |
| 16:52:37 | <merijn> | I immediately got sidetracked by work after doing the first day this year >.> |
| 16:52:46 | <yin> | merijn: tl;dr |
| 16:52:51 | <yin> | :D |
| 16:53:12 | <milan2> | :D |
| 16:54:33 | <yin> | yes i was happy for having only 12 days to worry about this week but i got to day 8 until work swallowed my free time |
| 16:54:43 | <milan2> | yin: Look yin even with type signatures! Not like yours ;) |
| 16:55:45 | <yin> | hey, i did sign main |
| 16:56:01 | <milan2> | Anyway sprout so scanl should work for 2015 d1 p2? |
| 16:56:46 | <sprout> | milan2: it works for me, but that's egel code |
| 16:57:15 | <sprout> | I would assume it works in haskell too. and even be faster due to laziness |
| 16:59:28 | <yin> | merijn: i'm always sad that Haskell requires so much verbosity in order to guarantee correctness |
| 16:59:48 | <mari-estel> | yin: in comparison with? |
| 17:00:14 | <yin> | mari-estel: my idealized version of Haskell :) |
| 17:00:25 | <yin> | i mean the potential is there |
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| 17:01:14 | <yin> | prelude doesn't even help |
| 17:02:10 | <merijn> | yin: I disagree, tbh :p |
| 17:02:34 | <merijn> | I find that Haskell (on average) requires *less* verbosity than most other languages to guarantee correctness |
| 17:02:58 | <merijn> | It's just easier to not write that stuff in other languages |
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| 17:09:27 | <yin> | yes. my point is that Haskell could be much more terse with little effort. it's unrealized potential |
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| 17:11:53 | <yin> | as for prelude not helping i'm thinking of partial functions, using Int for everything, etc... the usual complaints |
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| 17:50:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yin: there's a lot of boilerplate with imports, exports, language pragmas etc. But what's an example of what you mean ? |
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| 18:36:48 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> I agree that the import story is one the weakest part of the language |
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| 19:00:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> After c++, haskell imports are a blessing. After rust, they look outdated with obvious improvements |
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| 19:12:46 | <Sgeo> | <silly> foo :: Void -> Void; foo = id compiles. This suggests that 0^0=1. Is there a language extension where 0^0 is undefined? </silly> |
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| 19:19:26 | <monochrom> | Yes, it's called Calculus. >:) |
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| 19:21:09 | <monochrom> | Would you also like an extension that says that 0 is not a natural number? >:) |
| 19:22:18 | <yin> | > 0^0 |
| 19:22:19 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 19:22:30 | <yin> | *consistency* |
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| 19:51:07 | <milan2> | About import export in haskell I kind of like it :) python, js is total mess in that regard. What is better in rust in that regard? |
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| 20:06:36 | <yushyin> | ocaml modules are nice, submodules, lexically scoped imports, first-class |
| 20:08:42 | <milan2> | Noted will look into it too :) |
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| 20:35:38 | <milan2> | :t cycle |
| 20:35:39 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Internal.Stack.Types.HasCallStack => [a] -> [a] |
| 20:35:51 | <milan2> | Why is there HasCallStack? |
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| 20:36:21 | <milan2> | Nothing like that in repeat, iterate, replicate |
| 20:36:51 | <milan2> | :t error |
| 20:36:52 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Internal.Stack.Types.HasCallStack => [Char] -> a |
| 20:38:41 | <milan2> | Ah |
| 20:38:50 | <milan2> | It is like head. So partial function? |
| 20:41:15 | <monochrom> | > cycle [] |
| 20:41:16 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.cycle: empty list |
| 20:41:16 | <lambdabot> | CallStack (from HasCallStack): |
| 20:41:17 | <lambdabot> | error, called at libraries/ghc-internal/src/GHC/Internal/List.hs:2030:3 in... |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-12-19.