Logs on 2025-12-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:04:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> I kind of wish tail = drop 1. |
| 01:04:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> wait, if Haskell had "import with" keywords, would Haskell have OCaml functors? |
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| 01:06:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm now at the stage where i sort of wish i could pre-adapter all imports in a module cheaply |
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| 03:21:17 | <EvanR> | you might "fix" tail that way but not head |
| 03:21:37 | <EvanR> | the condition which guarantees head works also makes tail work |
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| 03:29:35 | <chromoblob> | also, it's so that you can choose between `tail` and `drop 1`, latter is terse enough |
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| 12:53:21 | <ncf> | <Zemyla> I kind of wish tail = drop 1. -- in what sense are they not equal? |
| 12:53:36 | <ncf> | oh, empty list |
| 12:54:38 | <ncf> | > tail [] == drop 1 [] |
| 12:54:40 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.tail: empty list |
| 12:54:40 | <lambdabot> | CallStack (from HasCallStack): |
| 12:54:40 | <lambdabot> | error, called at libraries/ghc-internal/src/GHC/Internal/List.hs:2030:3 in... |
| 12:55:02 | <ncf> | i guess this can't test whether they both fail or not |
| 12:55:19 | <ncf> | is there an equality test that also compares exceptions 🤔 |
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| 13:33:42 | <tomsmeding> | % :m +Control.Exception +Data.Function |
| 13:33:42 | <yahb2> | syntax: :module [+/-] [*]M1 ... [*]Mn |
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| 13:33:44 | <tomsmeding> | % :m +Control.Exception Data.Function |
| 13:33:44 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 13:33:53 | <tomsmeding> | % liftA2 ((==) `on` show) (try @SomeException (evaluate (tail @Int []))) (try @SomeException (evaluate (drop @Int 1 []))) |
| 13:33:53 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:39:56: warning: [GHC-63394] [-Wx-partial] ; In the use of ‘tail’ ; (imported from Prelude, but defined in GHC.Internal.List): ; "This is a partial function, it throws an e... |
| 13:34:02 | <tomsmeding> | % :set -Wno-x-partial |
| 13:34:02 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 13:34:04 | <tomsmeding> | % liftA2 ((==) `on` show) (try @SomeException (evaluate (tail @Int []))) (try @SomeException (evaluate (drop @Int 1 []))) |
| 13:34:04 | <yahb2> | False |
| 13:34:07 | <tomsmeding> | ncf: ^ :p |
| 13:34:33 | <tomsmeding> | SomeException doesn't have Eq unfortunately |
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| 14:03:06 | <ncf> | i'm thinking (==) `on` spoon |
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| 14:36:00 | <probie> | Is there a way to do type specific completeness checks for pattern synonoyms if the relevant type to discriminate on isn't the head of the type? |
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| 14:39:03 | <probie> | I've got a type that looks like `F t a b` (i.e `F` is the same every time), but `t` determines which patterns are needed for completeness |
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| 17:00:24 | <monochrom> | Oh w00t new GHC! |
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| 17:02:34 | <monochrom> | What is LoongArch? Is it like this: LongArch means 64 bits, LoongArch means 128 bits? |
| 17:05:11 | <ski> | and `LngArch' is `32' bits |
| 17:06:07 | <monochrom> | Ah, a new RISC arch. (Ironically, it has two 32-bit versions and a 64-bit version.) |
| 17:07:31 | <monochrom> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson Ah, Loong is the Chinese character for dragon. |
| 17:08:08 | <Franciman> | hi, do FRP and logic programming mix well? Do you know of any approach to FRP based on logic programming in haskell? |
| 17:08:28 | <Franciman> | i wonder whether arrows are more conveniently seen as logic programs |
| 17:08:33 | <monochrom> | Then again, dragons in Chinese mythology are long, too. :) |
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| 17:14:39 | <monochrom> | If you have so much as Alternative, you can already think <|> as or on steroid, <*> as and on steroid, so yeah, especially true for parsing. |
| 17:15:31 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 17:15:38 | <monochrom> | (Arrow is stronger than Applicative.) |
| 17:16:14 | <Franciman> | true, Arrows are a strange beast |
| 17:16:23 | <Franciman> | each pure function is an arrow |
| 17:16:29 | <monochrom> | (Then the HXT library (for XML) adds <|> to Arrow so you get Alternative+Arrow) |
| 17:19:37 | <Franciman> | thanks |
| 17:19:42 | <Franciman> | for the pointer, monochrom |
| 17:19:59 | <Franciman> | I was thinking about arrows, because yampa uses them to define FRP networks |
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| 17:43:53 | <hololeap> | is there a typeclass that abstracts over maps, namely things like insert, lookup, union, singleton etc? |
| 17:44:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> There is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mono-traversable-1.0.21.0/docs/Data-Containers.html#t:IsMap |
| 17:45:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Also there are lenses |
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| 17:46:20 | <hololeap> | mostly, I'd like to wrap maps in a newtype and be able to use generalized newtype deriving to get that stuff for free |
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| 17:47:34 | <hololeap> | but, yeah that looks about right |
| 17:47:50 | <monochrom> | Okasaki used to have defined classes for that. |
| 17:48:51 | <monochrom> | Look for "edison". |
| 17:49:08 | <monochrom> | But it didn't take off. Nobody or too few people used it. |
| 17:50:17 | <monochrom> | It turns out that the extremely low tech way of "just change 'import qualified Data.X" to 'import qualified Data.Y'" is sufficient for abstraction and hot-swapping. |
| 17:51:07 | <int-e> | The `as Foo` renaming feature is really helpful for that |
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| 17:51:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Harder to derive a module from existing module though |
| 17:52:59 | <monochrom> | IMO ideally it is SML parametrizable modules, equivalently Haskell Backpack, not classes, that is the right mechanism for this kind of abstraction. Unfortunately, Backpack arrived too late, long after people had discovered and widely use the low-tech method. (Cf bytesting and text.) |
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| 17:55:48 | <monochrom> | But I can be talked into classes if it comes with associated data families or type families. :) |
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| 17:57:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Given a module Data.HashMap sig Map, and I want to write a module MyHashMap that newtype-wraps the old one, like hоloleap is saying. To make MyHashMap implement Map, I don't think sml or ocaml have any solutions |
| 17:57:24 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Rust requires macros for a similar thing for examples |
| 17:57:39 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving is magic that replaces macros, but it's very useful magic |
| 17:59:51 | <monochrom> | Do you rule out hand-written forwarding? Because in SML I can write "module MyHashMap sig Map where insert = wrap . insert . unwrap; etc". |
| 18:00:16 | <monochrom> | But I can understand if you desire automation. |
| 18:00:27 | <tomsmeding> | yin geekosaur: re ghcup's bootstrap script, I made a PR https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-hs/pull/1301 |
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| 18:01:26 | <monochrom> | But ocaml has m4 so it's "OK". >:) |
| 18:02:14 | <monochrom> | Yeah GND is benovolent magic :) |
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| 18:04:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> For the purpose of this excercise I rule it out. But in general I don't think it's unacceptable |
| 18:05:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Another think typeclasses allow you vs modules is delaying a choice between runtime or compile time polymorphism. Like in haskell you can specialize-pragma or you can use dynamically |
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| 19:02:30 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> I used to think that newtype wrappers were dumb idea but it was because of me coming from C++ where doing something like that would require you to do a lot of boilerplate. |
| 19:03:40 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> In haskell it has less typing overhead because you can use deriving. |
| 19:03:40 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> And they're essential if you want to use same typeclass instance on same object with different semanics. |
| 19:04:47 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> like plain [] vs ZipList |
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| 19:28:50 | <hololeap> | yeah, personally I think the default semigroup instance for maps is unintuitive, especially when you have a bunch of maps nested to form a tree |
| 19:29:17 | <hololeap> | (Ord k, Semigroup a) => Semigroup (Map k a) |
| 19:29:26 | <hololeap> | is better in this situation |
| 19:30:05 | <hololeap> | and so newtypes are the only hope here |
| 19:30:37 | <hololeap> | (and I know about the monoidal-containers package) |
| 19:30:53 | <hololeap> | in this case, I also needed the map to be a non-empty variant |
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| 19:37:32 | <ncf> | the difference is basically whether to think of Map k a as k → Maybe a or as k → Alt Maybe a |
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| 19:41:29 | <hololeap> | more like Ap Maybe a |
| 19:41:57 | <hololeap> | since it's relying on 'a' to be a semigroup |
| 19:42:13 | <ncf> | nope, Ap Maybe a gives you Nothing when combining Just and Nothing |
| 19:42:34 | <ncf> | you have Semigroup a => Monoid (Maybe a) and Monoid (Alt Maybe a) |
| 19:42:51 | <ncf> | the monoidal-containers and containers instances for Map are just lifting those to functions, respectively |
| 19:44:21 | <ncf> | ("functions" meaning functions with finite support implemented as balanced trees, of course) |
| 19:45:23 | <hololeap> | you're right that 'Ap Maybe a' isn't correct |
| 19:45:31 | <hololeap> | % Alt (Just (All True)) <> Alt (Just (All False)) |
| 19:45:31 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:45:1: error: [GHC-88464] ; Data constructor not in scope: Alt :: Maybe a1 -> a ; ; <interactive>:45:12: error: [GHC-88464] ; Data constructor not in scope: All :: Bool -> a1 ... |
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| 19:45:40 | <hololeap> | Alt {getAlt = Just (All {getAll = True})} |
| 19:46:00 | <hololeap> | it didn't try to combine the inner All values |
| 19:46:44 | <ncf> | correct |
| 19:47:49 | <hololeap> | see, I want (singleton 5 (All True) <> singleton 5 (All False)) === singleton 5 (All False) |
| 19:48:12 | <ncf> | yes, that's what the other instance does |
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| 19:55:03 | <ncf> | i guess it is unintuitive that the default instance for Map does not agree with the default instance for Maybe |
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| 23:27:14 | <hololeap> | any guesses why this wants/needs an isomorphism? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/foldl-1.4.18/docs/Control-Foldl.html#v:foldMap |
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| 23:28:04 | <hololeap> | oh, wait I misread it |
| 23:28:33 | <hololeap> | so I guess the second function could be `id`? it still seems strange to me |
| 23:31:11 | <hololeap> | something to do with the way the Applicative instance is impemented for Fold |
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| 23:31:36 | <hololeap> | "extraction function" |
| 23:31:53 | <hololeap> | "This allows the Applicative instance to assemble derived folds that traverse the container only once" |
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| 23:35:34 | <byorgey> | the second function could be id. It just allows for a bit more flexibility in the case that the final result you want is itself not monoidal, but can be extracted from some monoidal result. |
| 23:36:53 | <byorgey> | It seems like it would not be strictly necessary in the case of foldMap, but since the Fold type already provides this separate "extraction" capability for other reasons, foldMap might as well provide the extra flexibility? |
| 23:38:18 | <Leary> | I would have omitted it, since you can always `fmap` anyway. |
| 23:39:28 | <byorgey> | very true |
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