Logs on 2025-12-21 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:43:27 | <hololeap> | is there a way to get the default `compare` for a data type without deriving Ord? |
| 03:44:15 | <hololeap> | I want to compare one inner value first, then fall back to the default `compare` |
| 03:44:45 | <hololeap> | (the data type has a lot of constructors so it will be tedious to write the whole thing by hand) |
| 03:46:21 | <hololeap> | transformers-compat only has Ord1 |
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| 09:20:13 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: not with a guarantee that you get the actual default `compare`, because GHC only produces that when you `deriving (Ord)`; you'd have to find a library |
| 09:21:24 | <[exa]> | hololeap: can you derive it for some wrapper/related newtype or so and then coerce? (or maybe the other way) |
| 09:21:58 | <[exa]> | good mornin' btw |
| 09:22:30 | <hololeap> | good morning |
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| 18:15:51 | <milan2> | Hello guyz, I have a quastion based on assumption. So lets start with that. Is it true that it is best to build lists from other lists by use of foldr? |
| 18:16:59 | <milan2> | If that is true then I should prefer that over foldl. However I had to use foldl, now does using foldr have meaning? I guess it still has right? |
| 18:17:46 | <milan2> | foldr s3 . folrl s2 . foldl s1 |
| 18:18:43 | <c_wraith> | "best" is vague. |
| 18:19:12 | <milan2> | Even for purpose of producing new list from old lists? |
| 18:19:18 | <geekosaur> | I think building lists from other lists is actually better done with difference lists in most cases, because folds will traverse the lists multiple times? |
| 18:19:25 | <geekosaur> | but it will depend on the exact intent |
| 18:19:26 | <c_wraith> | sure. What's the best for implementing reverse? |
| 18:19:45 | <c_wraith> | @src reverse |
| 18:19:45 | <lambdabot> | reverse = foldl (flip (:)) [] |
| 18:20:58 | <milan2> | chain of foldr should not traverse multiple times? |
| 18:21:20 | <milan2> | c_wraith: Ok, so for reverse foldl is preferable. |
| 18:21:41 | <c_wraith> | I think what you're getting at is foldr/build fusion |
| 18:22:04 | <c_wraith> | Participating in that on both sides requires using both foldr and build |
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| 18:23:14 | <milan2> | c_wraith: Now I am lost a little, could you elaborate on "build" or provide some documentation? |
| 18:23:50 | <c_wraith> | see https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1401.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.Base.html#map for an example. In particular, pay attention to the long section of comments. |
| 18:24:16 | <c_wraith> | build itself is documented at https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/base-4.22.0.0/docs/GHC-List.html#v:build |
| 18:24:21 | <milan2> | Ty :) |
| 18:24:59 | <probie> | @src foldl |
| 18:24:59 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z [] = z |
| 18:24:59 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs |
| 18:25:30 | <c_wraith> | yeah, the @src database is not what GHC actually uses, either. |
| 18:27:02 | <probie> | Yeah, looking at the source for base `foldl k z0 xs = foldr (\(v::a) (fn::b->b) -> oneShot (\(z::b) -> fn (k z v))) (id :: b -> b) xs z0` |
| 18:27:08 | <probie> | which is the sort of think I was expecting to see |
| 18:27:24 | <probie> | s/think/thing/ |
| 18:28:00 | <c_wraith> | the @src database is older than the optimizations in GHC that allow foldl-via-foldr to be a good consumer. |
| 18:28:36 | <c_wraith> | that optimization was... uh.... "precise arity analysis"? |
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| 18:29:38 | <c_wraith> | https://www.joachim-breitner.de/publications/CallArity-TFP.pdf Well. Sometimes it gets called that. |
| 18:30:33 | <milan2> | c_wraith: I think I understand what build does, so for chaining foldr multiple lists are created. But that should not matter as they are produced lazily? |
| 18:32:20 | <c_wraith> | it minimizes garbage collector churn |
| 18:33:00 | <c_wraith> | every one of those (:) that's actually allocated still goes on the heap and still needs to be collected later. |
| 18:34:23 | <c_wraith> | For tight loops, that can make a big difference. |
| 18:36:04 | <c_wraith> | I've definitely written code where using build cut the run time by about 65%.... given the specific way the list was later being consumed. |
| 18:36:52 | <milan2> | That is considerable. |
| 18:37:09 | <c_wraith> | .... also, it was the runtime of that specific operation. Not the whole program. I should be clear, it was a micro-optimization. |
| 18:40:01 | <c_wraith> | But the moral of the story - there are a lot of ways to consume and produce lists. Which one is best can be pretty context-dependent. For broad rules: use the least powerful tool that gets the job done. |
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| 18:41:07 | <milan2> | I guess, I am still noob and optimizations are not needed for Advent of Code :D |
| 18:44:31 | <c_wraith> | Yeah. In the context of aoc, just avoid the big performance pitfalls and you'll be fine. I mean, people use *far* slower runtimes than what you get out of GHC without trouble. Algorithm choice is the big deal. |
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| 18:46:02 | <c_wraith> | I was actually amused my testing for Day 8, part 2 showed that the classic hyper-optimized mutable reference algorithms weren't any faster than just using Data.Map. At least at that size of problem. |
| 18:53:28 | <monochrom> | If you consult base source code for performance prediction, don't forget to look for RULES which can totally override normal source code. |
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| 18:56:05 | <monochrom> | In the case of lists, those rules will suggest that the best way to build list is to use `build`, ironically literally. >:) |
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| 19:34:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Artem> c_wraith: I've rediscovered this several times over the years I did AoC |
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| 19:55:43 | <milan2> | Could anybody check correct answer for aoc 2015 day 3 part 2? I don't believe I have wrong answer. It compiled so it must be correct! Right?! Right?! |
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| 20:16:18 | <milan2> | Ah list I constructed by self recursive function was reversed. |
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| 21:24:17 | <cheater> | ne1 here try granule |
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| 21:29:24 | <EvanR> | if it compiles it must be true |
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| 21:45:23 | <int-e> | hmm, reversing the input (at least that's what I think it was) is a fun one. |
| 21:47:47 | <hololeap> | haskell's type system can't prevent reverse-string footguns |
| 21:48:22 | <hololeap> | (or anything of the nature of "the right things in the wrong places") |
| 21:48:41 | <hololeap> | you still need to write tests |
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| 21:49:16 | <int-e> | just don't make mistakes ;) |
| 21:49:54 | <c_wraith> | that's the part of programming people keep forgetting |
| 21:49:54 | <hololeap> | of course :) |
| 21:51:05 | <int-e> | The thing is, the given examples are too symmetric and part 1 is actually fine with the reversed input. So it's a pretty brilliant bug to have in this problem. |
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| 21:53:09 | <EvanR> | one day we will have the perfect type system that makes mistakes impossible |
| 21:53:18 | <EvanR> | except writing the types wrong |
| 21:54:12 | <EvanR> | before you can play an unlosable game you have to define the game |
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| 22:13:27 | <monochrom> | Don't play to play, just don't play. >:) |
| 22:15:33 | <int-e> | I actually managed to get through this nerd snipe attack without writing a single line of code. (I did, however, google a writeup that included part 2.) |
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| 22:55:41 | <yin> | Lists belong in the Control namespace |
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| 23:19:51 | <EvanR> | also monads in the Data |
| 23:26:37 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> If there's Data.Data then why there isn't Control.Control? :P |
| 23:29:22 | <monochrom> | GHC has only recently begun to provided delimited continuations. But eventually Control.Control would be a great home for its stable API. :) |
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| 23:39:03 | <probie> | EvanR: We already have the perfect type system that makes mistakes impossible |
| 23:39:20 | <probie> | It's uninhabited |
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| 23:42:22 | <EvanR> | is that like Falso |
| 23:42:39 | <EvanR> | https://inutile.club/estatis/falso/ |
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| 23:45:52 | <probie> | It's the opposite of Falso |
| 23:47:29 | <probie> | If our type system has no inhabitants, there are no valid programs, and therefore none of our programs can have any mistakes |
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