Logs on 2025-12-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 10:44:52 | <Leary> | How fine-grained is "a full memory barrier"? If different threads are doing e.g. `fetchAddInt#` at different indices of the same `MutableByteArray#`, will they operate independently or contend with one another? |
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| 14:59:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> I read this article, and Ryan forgot one option. https://ryanglscott.github.io/2019/02/06/proxy-arguments-in-class-methods/ |
| 15:00:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> metaData :: Const blah a (or Tagged a blah) |
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| 15:01:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> It has most of the pros of the "no explicit arguments", including the fact that it's not a function which can matter for performance. But it doesn't require language extensions. |
| 15:03:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i guess FFI isn't that simple, ugh, but it's more cabal's fault |
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| 16:12:33 | <ncf> | edwardk: in Data.Distributive you wrote that "Categorically every Distributive functor is actually a right adjoint". do you have a proof of this somewhere? |
| 16:13:15 | <ncf> | at least i don't think one can prove this "internally", as in write an instance Distributive g => Representable g |
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| 16:19:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Actually, a "generic" Rep type is newtype GRep g = GRep { runGRep :: forall a. g a -> a } I remember reading an article about it. |
| 16:20:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> You can use collect somehow to make g (g Any -> Any), then fmap unsafeCoerce to g (GRep g), which is safe because of parametricity. |
| 16:20:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> And that's basically the id function for a representable. |
| 16:22:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> https://duplode.github.io/posts/every-distributive-is-representable.html |
| 16:23:04 | <ncf> | thanks |
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| 17:29:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> life is fun, now i'm deliberately trying to vibecode segfaults on a Apple Silicon Mac |
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| 17:30:32 | <pie_> | this is really basic but i never understood how to do error handling in software properly |
| 17:30:32 | <pie_> | beyond the equivalent of catching an error and doing nothing with it or putting a todo there or something |
| 17:30:32 | <pie_> | ok maybe today if i thought about it i could do a little better; just crash the program if you run into an issue (which is what happens when you dont catch an exception i guess) |
| 17:30:32 | <pie_> | but like how do you do stuff properly if you dont want your programs to just fail |
| 17:30:32 | <pie_> | (alternatively, what do i read on this) |
| 17:30:52 | <pie_> | so like, what does "good error handling design" look like in software engineering? |
| 17:31:40 | <monochrom> | In many cases, there is a reasonable plan B. The details depends on the actual code and/or the actual specification. |
| 17:31:52 | <pie_> | ok sure i guess some of the stuff you would start with is the difference between invalid programs, and runtime errors / that you want to fail fast to prevent invalid state propagation, .. |
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| 17:34:18 | <pie_> | what if i dont want my programs to crash? (put a restarting wrapper around it? - so like presumably whatever erlang does i guess?) |
| 17:34:34 | <pie_> | i wouldnt mind if i could read up on a thorough discussion of these kinds of things |
| 17:34:47 | <pie_> | idk, what do they do in embedded space software or whatever |
| 17:34:54 | <pie_> | just remove all the errors? :P |
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| 17:35:25 | <pie_> | *design out all the errors its designed to handle, fall back to remote external intervention for whatever else |
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| 18:05:31 | <pie_> | watched most of this (2x) and i also largely agree with the question being asked, but it doesnt really provide much in terms of solutions i think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUAPHTbxnAc The Absurdity of Error Handling: Finding a Purpose for Errors in Safety-Critical SYCL - Erik Tomusk |
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| 18:09:14 | <monochrom> | The scenerio I'm most familiar with is that the user gives you a filename and you open it to do your job. We anticipate that sometimes the open attempt fails. For a non-interactive command line program, you pretty have no choice but give up and exit. For a GUI though, you can and should always catch the exception, tell the user, and be ready to take another filename and try again. |
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| 18:10:56 | <pie_> | the short of the video is that safe systems from a language designer POV are about removing undefined behavior from a language, from a practitioner viewpoint are about determinism, and error handling is about moving the application from an unintended state back to an intended state, and the question is (well not the way im phrasing it) that the overlap between understood state and error state is so small or nonexistent enough that "does error handling |
| 18:10:56 | <pie_> | even make sense?" - something like that |
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| 18:11:54 | <monochrom> | But taking a step back, those are just logical conclusions of the respective specifications. The first case has already required non-interactiveness, so you can only give up. The second case has already specified a GUI, implying that you never exit unless the user tells you to. It is common sense, there is no need to read a book about it. |
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| 18:13:47 | <pie_> | well, its not so obvious to my puny brain |
| 18:13:53 | <pie_> | but if you explain it that way, sure |
| 18:14:20 | <pie_> | like yes ive seen gui applications that pop up an exception window (for stuff thats not the failure to open a file) and let you try to continue anyway |
| 18:14:30 | <pie_> | and ok for cli applications |
| 18:14:37 | <pie_> | makes sense |
| 18:14:46 | <pie_> | but i guess i was implicitly also thinking about things like services |
| 18:17:03 | <monochrom> | Another scenerio is much more complex but also a solved problem so you should not re-invent the wheel. Relational databases, transactions, and the choice to rollback a transaction (because you detect an invalidity). |
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| 18:18:41 | <monochrom> | That would be when an error in the middle of something causes invalid states. The solution is to undo that unfinished something. |
| 18:19:50 | <monochrom> | Easier said than done, sure. That's why you outsource it to a mature relational database, rather than bothering to code up your own. |
| 18:20:54 | <monochrom> | Alterantively use Haskell's STM. :) |
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| 18:21:57 | <pie_> | im too dumb to reinvent the wheel, thats why im asking :> |
| 18:22:11 | <sm> | pie_ , you're on the right track - it's good to think about the kinds of errors and how you want to handle each; there are multiple error handling strategies. |
| 18:22:27 | <sm> | also, Erlang is an excellent thing to read about |
| 18:24:40 | <sm> | it is the best exemplar of the "monitor subsystems and restart them when they fail" strategy |
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| 19:22:00 | <pie_> | i dont suppose anyone knows who this is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfXt_Eb0ZU8 |
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| 19:27:19 | <pie_> | <geenvoud> pie_: that'll be a certain westley weimer https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1330017.1330019 |
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| 20:40:33 | × | lockna quits (~lockna@193-81-168-132.hdsl.highway.telekom.at) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:41:10 | → | lockna joins (~lockna@193-81-168-132.hdsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 20:46:41 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
| 20:47:19 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) |
| 20:49:05 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 20:53:47 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 21:00:17 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 21:04:43 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:06:14 | × | Everything quits (~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com) (Quit: leaving) |
| 21:09:37 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 21:16:16 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:19:53 | × | bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 21:20:32 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 21:21:56 | → | bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 21:24:34 | → | bitdex_ joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 21:28:19 | × | bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 21:29:16 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:34:07 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 21:35:39 | × | ChaiTRex quits (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 21:36:22 | × | target_i quits (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving) |
| 21:36:39 | → | ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 21:41:44 | × | lockna quits (~lockna@193-81-168-132.hdsl.highway.telekom.at) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:45:25 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 21:50:25 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 22:01:13 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:03:43 | × | tremon quits (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 22:06:00 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 22:15:19 | × | rainbyte quits (~rainbyte@186.22.19.214) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 22:17:01 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:18:33 | × | synchromesh quits (~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:694d:f25a:3b3c:f3f9) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:19:59 | → | synchromesh joins (~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:7842:6802:4767:2e5b) |
| 22:24:08 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:26:12 | × | __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 22:29:09 | × | itaipu quits (~itaipu@168.121.97.28) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 22:35:03 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:40:01 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 22:45:50 | × | DetourNetworkUK quits (DetourNetw@user/DetourNetworkUK) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:49:13 | → | DetourNetworkUK joins (DetourNetw@user/DetourNetworkUK) |
| 22:50:50 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:55:37 | × | ChaiTRex quits (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:56:02 | → | ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 22:56:07 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:01:15 | × | bitdex_ quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:05:03 | → | bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 23:06:38 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:11:06 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:14:36 | → | bitdex_ joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 23:18:01 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:18:19 | × | bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:23:02 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 23:26:43 | × | vetkat quits (~vetkat@user/vetkat) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:27:07 | → | vetkat joins (~vetkat@user/vetkat) |
| 23:35:11 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:36:32 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) |
| 23:39:55 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:50:37 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:55:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-12-27.