Logs on 2025-12-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:33:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> apparently apple silicon (and psosibly modern ARM in general) is designed to be very resistant to segfaults; double free would throw an error, but not a segfault |
| 00:33:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> we ended up having to point a pointer at kernel memory just to trigger a segfault |
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| 01:02:08 | <geekosaur> | there are malloc libraries which do that (it's not up to the hardware) |
| 01:03:06 | <geekosaur> | which doesn't mean you can't segfault on them, just that common errors like double free, use after free, and overreading/writing a block are detected and reported instead of corrupting memory or crashing |
| 01:04:57 | <geekosaur> | they're really nice in conjunction with debuggers because you can break on the error entry point and catch things like that immediately instead of after something reveals memory corruption |
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| 01:07:05 | <geekosaur> | (that said, I think memcheck has superseded all of them…) |
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| 01:11:58 | <int-e> | presumably this is about ARM's "pointer authentication" feature |
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| 03:40:15 | <Leary> | "variance introduced by outliers: -9223372036854775808% (severely inflated)" |
| 03:40:19 | <Leary> | Thanks, criterion. |
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| 04:04:27 | <monochrom> | That number looks awfully familar. |
| 04:06:11 | <monochrom> | > 2^63 |
| 04:06:12 | <lambdabot> | 9223372036854775808 |
| 04:06:16 | <monochrom> | That. :) |
| 04:06:29 | <Leary> | > minBound :: Int |
| 04:06:30 | <lambdabot> | -9223372036854775808 |
| 04:06:37 | <Leary> | Or that. |
| 04:07:52 | <monochrom> | But if variance is negative, that's severely deflated or imploded, not inflated. >:) |
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| 04:14:21 | <Leary> | (turns out I'd forgotten to wait on forked threads, so criterion was measuring a load of nonsense) |
| 04:15:25 | <monochrom> | oh heh |
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| 05:03:27 | <iqubic> | I have a Haskell design question. How do I decide if I should make a typeclass to describe a particular constraint or just use and pass around a record of functions. |
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| 05:29:23 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> Iqubic: the standard answer some years ago was that if you could give "algebraic laws" relating the operations between themselves or super classes you were in the right path |
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| 05:30:52 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> The second case was that the class admitted obvious instances. For example show and read. Foldable was obvious even if kind of adhoc because `toList` was the only real method and everything else was a more efficient way to avoid the conversion to lists. |
| 05:31:18 | <ski> | does the type determine a canonical instance ? or would it make sense to want to pass different records, at different times, for the same type ? |
| 05:31:31 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> In summary, you had abstraction power via laws or you had a simple model ln the instances |
| 05:32:22 | <ski> | yea, you also most likely should not be making a type class, unless you already have at least two different instances in mind |
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| 05:36:37 | <iqubic> | In the thing that I'm modelling, the same type could very easily have different implementations. And I don't want to jump through newtype wrappers like Sum and Product for the two different Monoids over integers. |
| 05:36:56 | <iqubic> | The more I actually think about this, the more it makes sense to use a record of functions. |
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| 05:37:35 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> Record of functions can be used everywhere else. Most importantly where the provenance is a deciding factor on what the functions should do, not just the type. This is a fine concept, these records of functions are modules as ocaml sense |
| 05:39:17 | <iqubic> | Essentially, I'm trying to model simple combinatorial games like "nim" where I can write a function like "nextMoves :: a -> [a]", but then I realized that different games might have the type for the state variable. |
| 05:39:28 | <ski> | yea, sounds like record of operations is more sensible, then |
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| 05:40:46 | <ski> | btw, sometimes it makes sense to make a function from a record-of-operations, to another (possibly existential) record-of-operations. this being one way to do something similar to the parameterized modules in the module system of the MLs (SML,OCaml) (cf. Backpack) |
| 05:41:11 | <iqubic> | Yeah, I get what you mean. |
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| 05:41:29 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> I liked backpack... |
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| 05:42:45 | <ski> | you'd open the returned record in a scope, bringing the skolem into scope, and then use the operations directly. this is a way to do Abstract Data Types |
| 05:43:03 | <iqubic> | In the basic game of "nim" you have a bunch of distinct piles, and each pile has a bunch of objects. Players take turns removing any amount of objects from a single pile. The winner is the player to make the last valid move. In other words, if you can't make a move, you lose. |
| 05:43:34 | <ski> | (unlike doing OO via existentials, where you'd open the record, apply an operation to the current state, and then rewrap new state with the operations again, every time) |
| 05:44:52 | <iqubic> | I can model this as with a state of [Int]. But if I want a similar game, but with the constraint of "after each move, the piles must all have a coprime number of objects", that's also a state of type "[Int]" but a different "nextMoves :: a -> [a]" function. |
| 05:45:16 | <iqubic> | BTW, Conway et al. call that version "prim", I think. |
| 05:45:41 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> These combinatorial games are not related in anyway right? They just happen to implement a nextMoves function, the lack of laws pushes you to record of functions |
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| 05:46:56 | <iqubic> | Yeah, correct. |
| 05:47:12 | <iqubic> | It's mainly just the "nextMoves" function that relates them. |
| 05:47:24 | <iqubic> | And I have no laws, because I have just the one function. |
| 05:47:42 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> Right, which is also a non obvious function |
| 05:48:54 | <ski> | presumably iterating `nextMoves' is meant to lead to a tree where no path is infinite ? |
| 05:49:23 | <iqubic> | Correct. I'm only interested in finite games here. |
| 05:49:33 | <ski> | some kind of well-founded order thing |
| 05:51:06 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> Multiple implementations for that in no way related to the days structure to give an instance |
| 05:51:12 | <ski> | all the outputs of `nextMoves' are presumably strictly less than the input |
| 05:51:17 | <iqubic> | Basically, I've been reading the book "Winning Ways For Your Mathematical Plays" by Berlekamp, Guy, and Conway, and I want to implement some of these things in Haskell. |
| 05:51:17 | <haskellbridge> | <slack1256> Data* |
| 05:51:33 | <iqubic> | ski: For some definition of "strictly less", yeah. |
| 05:52:02 | <ski> | yea, some arbitrary partial order |
| 05:52:30 | <ski> | (that is well-founded) |
| 05:52:47 | <iqubic> | But my main question was "Do I model this as a typeclass with one function or a record of one function"? |
| 05:53:12 | <ski> | yep. the latter seems more reasonable |
| 05:53:45 | <ski> | (you could put the order relation as a second operation in the record .. but perhaps you have no use for it, at all, at run-time) |
| 05:54:08 | <iqubic> | I agree. Because different games with completely different rules might want to use similar state representations. |
| 05:54:30 | <iqubic> | ski: Currently my planned API doesn't need a way to tell which states are smaller. |
| 05:55:01 | <ski> | in any case, even without an explicit order relation (computationally irrelevant or not), you should still be able to express a well-foundedness law for `nextMoves' |
| 05:55:20 | <ski> | (iow, you don't need more than one operation, to be able to have a law) |
| 05:55:43 | <iqubic> | What do you mean by well-foundedness? |
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| 05:58:38 | <ski> | for a strict order relation `<', a property like `forall P. (forall x. (forall y. y < x -> P y) -> P x) -> forall x. P x'. if we were talking about natural numbers, this would be called "strong induction" : you can prove a property `P' holds for all `x', if you can prove it holds for all `x', under the assumption it holds for all `y' that are strictly less than `x' |
| 05:59:14 | <iqubic> | Right I see. |
| 06:00:53 | <ski> | in terms of `nextMoves', instead of `forall y. y < x -> P y', we'd say `forall y. elem y (nextMoves x) = True -> P y'. iow, assuming that it holds for all the possible next states, it should be able to show it holds for the current state |
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| 06:02:39 | <iqubic> | forall a. let a' = nextMoves a in all [ length (nextMoves opt) < length a' | opt <- nextMoves a] |
| 06:02:51 | <iqubic> | Or something like that. |
| 06:03:27 | <iqubic> | Basically, if you keep iterating nextMoves function, you should keep getting less and less options. |
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| 06:07:06 | <ski> | not necessarily |
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| 06:08:22 | <ski> | a tree that at each node at depth `n' has either zero or `n' branches of that node could still be well-founded |
| 06:09:17 | <ski> | the important part is that each state is getting closer to a minimal element (a leaf, one which has zero successors), on each step |
| 06:09:53 | <ski> | you could have the branching explode, and still have finite depth for every path |
| 06:10:16 | <iqubic> | Yeah. But in my case, I want you to always have strictly less moves as you go along. That's the main case I'm interested in exploring. |
| 06:10:47 | <ski> | (there's not even a need for the branching to be finite, it could still be well-founded. although, possibly, in your case, you're only interested in finite branching) |
| 06:11:02 | <ski> | ah, okay |
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| 06:40:06 | <iqubic> | Essentially, if a level of my tree has N members, then all children there should have strictly less than N descendants, except for the root. |
| 06:40:54 | <iqubic> | Except, it's more like a DAG, because there might be multiple possible ways to get from the current state to some future state. |
| 06:42:24 | <iqubic> | But this mathematical theory has little to do with Haskell at this point and I have gotten my orginal design question answered already. |
| 06:45:19 | <hololeap> | are there any language extensions now days that can let you write a Functor instance for Set? some way to inject a constraint requirement into an existing function, or something? |
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| 07:45:32 | <[exa]> | hololeap: you can wrap the set in a newtype that imposes the constraint, with similar tradeoffs like with other newtype wraps (inconvenient but coerces well) and typeclass constraints on data types (generally hated) |
| 07:49:00 | <[exa]> | iqubic: people usually have these "operation records" for various backend implementations for whatever, e.g. here: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/tls-2.1.13/docs/Network-TLS.html#t:Backend or here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/selda-0.5.2.0/docs/Database-Selda-Backend.html#t:SeldaBackend . TBH quite easy to go that way, and very easy to slap on a typeclass later, in case you |
| 07:49:02 | <[exa]> | decide you want to infer which backend to use where. |
| 07:49:15 | <hololeap> | hm, ok. I was looking into a different instance of Apply for Map (different than the one defined in semigroupoids) and ultimately it requires (Ord k, Semigroup a) => Map k a |
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| 07:50:04 | <hololeap> | but Apply is a class for Type -> Type |
| 07:50:19 | <[exa]> | hololeap: why though (kinda curious, and also usually this has been a common instance of xyz issues) |
| 07:51:15 | <hololeap> | mostly just out of curiosity. the current Apply instance feels very niche since it uses Map.intersectionWith under the hood |
| 07:53:26 | <hololeap> | I was looking into an instance that would use something like Map.unionWith (<>) |
| 07:53:39 | <hololeap> | though not exactly that |
| 07:53:47 | <Leary> | That sounds like `Semigroup` instance instead. |
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| 07:55:04 | <[exa]> | hololeap: that can't do applicative though, right? (you'd need a default function and default parameter) |
| 07:55:26 | <hololeap> | right, Apply is Applicative sans `pure`, |
| 07:55:30 | <[exa]> | so yeah that would be a (specialized) semigroup |
| 07:55:47 | <hololeap> | just the <*> part of Applicative |
| 07:55:50 | <[exa]> | no in this case even `ap` would require the defaults |
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| 07:57:06 | <hololeap> | anyway, this wasn't really a problem I needed to solve, just an exploration of ideas |
| 07:58:58 | <hololeap> | @hackage quickcheck-classes -- makes it easy to verify the Apply laws |
| 07:58:58 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/quickcheck-classes -- makes it easy to verify the Apply laws |
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| 08:50:49 | <[exa]> | hololeap: kinda wondering if there could be a monoid adaptor for this case, like we have with Sum... could be Keyed or so |
| 08:52:14 | <hololeap> | there's some in the monoidal-containers package if you mean making (<>) = Map.unionWith (<>) |
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| 08:52:41 | <[exa]> | still that ain't gonna typecheck the functions there for Apply |
| 08:52:55 | <[exa]> | I'll think about it. :D |
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| 09:23:27 | <hololeap> | I get fleetwood mac songs stuck in my head a lot, even though I only really hear them on the radio in stores and such |
| 09:24:49 | <hololeap> | oops, wrong channel :p |
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| 09:36:53 | <Hecate> | hololeap: no you're right, let's talk about the things that matter. I love The Chain :D |
| 09:38:02 | <hololeap> | I agree |
| 09:39:45 | <hololeap> | really, that whole album is epic. stevie nicks has an incredible unique voice |
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| 19:39:07 | <machinedgod> | Hi everyone. Linear types question (mostly theoretical curiosity but practical solution is appreciated too): is it possible to make a linear function that acts just like a record selector on data? The reason I ask is because, my intuition says - I will have to ignore (consume) all the fields except the one I need when I pattern match, therefore it violates linearity. However, linear versions of fst |
| 19:39:13 | <machinedgod> | and snd from linear-base do just that. Is this meant to help bridge the gaps with nonlinear code, or is linear code actually supposed to be like that? Thank you upfront. |
| 19:39:27 | <machinedgod> | (sorry for the wall of text - didn't realize how much I wrote) |
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| 19:44:23 | <ncf> | machinedgod: record projections take an unrestricted record unless there's only a single field, see https://ghc-proposals.readthedocs.io/en/latest/proposals/0111-linear-types.html#records-and-projections |
| 19:44:51 | <ncf> | the fst and snd from linear-base have a Consumable constraint on the field that's being discarded, so there's no magic there |
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| 20:11:49 | <machinedgod> | Oh, I see! I didn't even notice the Consumable constraint! Thank you, now I know at least my intuition was at the right place. |
| 20:13:09 | <machinedgod> | ncf: The proposal has much more information than manual - this is great, thank you again. |
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| 21:39:35 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 21:43:44 | × | weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:32:34 | × | CiaoSen quits (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-12-28.