Logs on 2026-01-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:32:58 | <monochrom> | Does it mean that if the list to be sorted is [n] then it will sleep for n units of time? So Ω(n) time for sorting a singleton list? That's efficient? |
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| 00:37:43 | <geekosaur> | for a specific definitoon of "efficient" 🙂 |
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| 01:51:47 | <epitron> | You can speed it up by a factor of 1000 by only sleeping for 1ms |
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| 01:52:38 | <epitron> | Also its runtime is the largest value in the list, not the list size |
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| 01:53:10 | epitron | sleep sort expert |
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| 02:04:44 | <monochrom> | > 2^64 / 1000 / 86400 |
| 02:04:51 | <monochrom> | % 2^64 / 1000 / 86400 |
| 02:04:51 | <yahb2> | 2.135039823346013e11 |
| 02:04:55 | <monochrom> | That's 2 days. |
| 02:05:35 | <monochrom> | It means that if I sort a list of just a few 64-bit numbers I'm already waiting 2 days. |
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| 02:08:16 | <monochrom> | OTOH if the list has 1,000,000 numbers, we are spawning 1,000,000 threads. At that point the OS overhead of spawning so many threads becomes unbearable; and even if you find a way to tolerate it, the huge uncertainty that some threads start counting early, some others start count late, means that your sleep time cannot be as short as 1ms. |
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| 02:14:11 | <monochrom> | Once again the fallacy of seeing O/Θ/Ω("n") and thinking "I only see 'n', so linear time, and if I can easily make a 1000x speedup then it's fast", forgetting that really n = 2^k where k is the number of input bits, so you're looking at exponential time, at which point a 1000x speedup fails to catch up. |
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| 15:11:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> interesting question: can free monads be used to specify a program via types as an eDSL? |
| 15:11:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the goal is velocity |
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| 17:18:59 | <Milan_Vanca> | Hello :), do you use partial functions? I get that it is unsafe and may lead to runtime errors, but it feels pointles to use function that produces Maybe then pattern match on Nothing and throw my own error. |
| 17:19:51 | <Milan_Vanca> | Or is it good practise to always think about all possible branches and explicitly document them? Even when they could not possibly be evaluated at runtime? |
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| 17:21:18 | <monochrom> | I use partial functions when it becomes over-engineering to make them total. |
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| 17:22:41 | <Milan_Vanca> | So basically when you feel/decide it is not worth it. |
| 17:25:39 | <Leary> | Milan_Vanca: The only partial function I use often is `error`. It's usually worth writing your own error messages, since the generic ones tend not to be very helpful. |
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| 17:26:28 | <Milan_Vanca> | Leary: hmm so no other use of partial? Interesting. |
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| 17:30:47 | <Milan_Vanca> | How wouuld you guyz approach this problem. Imagine I have list of elements of arbitrary length. I pad it so it is multiple of 512. Now I try to consume this list by chunks of 512. I am tempted to use partial function for consuming as it should not be possible to have non mod 512 lenght. If padding is correct error can't happen. |
| 17:31:37 | <Milan_Vanca> | Leary: Would you still use total function and pattern match on Nothing and then throw error? |
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| 17:32:40 | <monochrom> | I work backwards. If the impossible happens, do I have a plan B for the program to continue working (is it even required?), or should it just crash and I just fix the bug and move on? |
| 17:33:45 | <EvanR> | Milan_Vanca, true, it is pointless to use a Maybe, pattern match and then throw an error. Unless you want to change the error message in case the impossible happens. The failure case is impossible right? |
| 17:34:10 | <Milan_Vanca> | monochrom: This is great idea! I should ask this question more often when programming. |
| 17:34:39 | <EvanR> | sometimes Nothing would be impossible |
| 17:34:59 | <EvanR> | but it's important to not delude yourself... which is why you need proof |
| 17:35:05 | <EvanR> | not a runtime test |
| 17:35:07 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: Yeah it should be, I try to implement MD5 which pads messages to modulo 512. Then computes whole blocks. So it should not error as it would imply I padded wrong. |
| 17:35:17 | <monochrom> | But in your example, I don't even have that dichotomy. Instead of pre-padding then expect well-padded, just go ahead consume the chunk and pad the last chunk when found. |
| 17:36:00 | <EvanR> | sometimes the algorithm can be made more efficient at the expense of requiring a meticulous proof that some situations can't happen, not covered by the type system |
| 17:36:02 | <Milan_Vanca> | monochrom: Yeah agree this is nice solution, but MD5 says there must be padding. As operation is not defined on blocks of different length that 512 |
| 17:36:08 | <monochrom> | s/consume the chunk/consume the chunks/ |
| 17:36:51 | <EvanR> | it sounds scary until you realize every line of dynamically typed code is using this mentality |
| 17:37:02 | <EvanR> | and somehow runs the world |
| 17:37:25 | <Leary> | The problem with "this case is impossible anyway" is that you can be wrong, or code elsewhere can change that breaks it. When that happens, you will really want to see a runtime error that points precisely to the code that threw it, not a "*** Exception: Maybe.fromJust: Nothing" which could have come from anywhere. |
| 17:37:28 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: This idea of proofing is interesting, but I am not proficient at math and cannot even imagine how could I proof that something will or won't happen. However I have a strong gut feeling :D |
| 17:38:22 | <EvanR> | since you're dealing with a very specific algorithm, it is possible and somebody has probably done it 1000 times |
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| 17:38:36 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: :( So true... My day to day job is with these dynamic languages. |
| 17:38:41 | <EvanR> | just trace backwards where this nothing might have come from and see that it is ... nowhere |
| 17:39:35 | <EvanR> | also Leary is also right |
| 17:39:51 | <Milan_Vanca> | Leary: Oookey I can see that.. I will try to document "imposible" cases |
| 17:40:08 | <EvanR> | GHC has crashed on my with "the impossible happened" xD |
| 17:40:15 | <Leary> | Milan_Vanca: I would not pad the list, but parse fixed-size chunks from the list into a (dense) bespoke type with your invariant. That type would then have fast, safe operations written in terms of unsafe or partial functions. |
| 17:40:16 | <EvanR> | very sad |
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| 17:42:08 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: Was the error *** Exception: Prelude.head: empty list ?? :D Just kidding :D |
| 17:42:27 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: SO internal GHC error? |
| 17:42:28 | <EvanR> | ... no |
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| 17:43:09 | <EvanR> | this was very rare which is good |
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| 17:43:32 | <EvanR> | but shows how hard it can be to verify code even when the language forces you to think about the cases |
| 17:44:46 | <Milan_Vanca> | Leary: Hmm not sure if I want to rewrite my algo now.. But I might try it later when I am bored. So basically you would "pad" only when last block is not 512 and in moment you parse it to some datatype? |
| 17:46:38 | <Leary> | Yes, something like `newtype Chunk512 = UnsafeMkChunk512 Text; parseChunk512 :: [Char] -> Maybe (Chunk512, [Char])`. |
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| 17:48:39 | <EvanR> | then internal code only uses UnsafeMkChunk512 when it is definitely the case that the chunk has that length. Parsers bear a lot of burden |
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| 17:49:35 | <EvanR> | for extra paranoia don't export UnsafeMkChunk512 at least in a public API |
| 17:50:16 | <Leary> | That's not extra paranoia, that's the basic level. |
| 17:52:16 | <EvanR> | who would use UnsafeMkChunk512 irresponsibly when it says Unsafe all over it?? xD |
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| 21:09:04 | <Milan_Vanca> | Imposible happened :( Who could have known ! :D |
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| 21:14:47 | <c_wraith> | I have put (error "you rewrote <this function> and got it wrong") in code before. |
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| 21:19:17 | <EvanR> | Milan_Vanca, a teachable moment |
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| 21:27:48 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: Indeed! I got humbled. |
| 21:29:31 | <EvanR> | by obtaining the proof of impossibility, you may humble the code / computer / critics |
| 21:29:58 | <EvanR> | (then your boss humbles you again by changing the requirements and invalidating the proof) |
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| 21:54:02 | <Milan_Vanca> | :D Lucky me! I am not yet employable as a haskell programmer so no proofs needed for my job! |
| 21:54:15 | <Milan_Vanca> | Heehe :D |
| 21:54:16 | <Milan_Vanca> | :( :( |
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| 21:54:56 | <Milan_Vanca> | Silently cries into pillow. |
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| 22:21:57 | <Milan_Vanca> | GN :) |
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| 22:22:14 | <Milan_Vanca> | And thank you all for answers. |
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| 23:06:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> @irc_libera.chat_milan_vanca:kf8nh.com: different idea: just newtype it |
| 23:06:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> gone :/ |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-01-03.