Logs on 2026-01-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:04:02 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> sm: what is sad about a stable and well working GHC release? |
| 00:04:40 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Should we switch to 9.8 which is abandoned or to 9.10 which has two minor broken releases (including the last one)? |
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| 00:05:17 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> 'recommended' isn't for people who want to follow the latest releases. |
| 00:06:57 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Sorry, 9.12 is the one that's broken... I'm starting to mix up all the broken releases |
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| 00:10:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> @maerwald that's a fine thing of course. I acknowledged the no doubt excellent reasons in the linked discussion with my thumbs up. I called it sad mainly because as an experienced haskeller I expect many difficulties building current projects or using tools, and many known limitations, with those older ghc versions. |
| 00:10:15 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> 9.6 is documented as suitable for use: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/GHC-status |
| 00:10:41 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> sm: What difficulties? |
| 00:12:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> i don't have a list handy. But in my time as a maintainer and packager I've worked around a ton of ghc version and platform specific bugs or limitations |
| 00:14:21 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> What limitations? |
| 00:14:38 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Why is 9.6 more limited than 9.10? |
| 00:15:58 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I did not prepare a list in advance of this chat have forgotten them for the moment. I could go digging in my issue tracker but it's not important |
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| 00:19:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> If you make this claim then I think it's important |
| 00:20:18 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I mean, I would make the effort if you are truly considering bumping the recommendation. I assume you've seen them all though and will bump when you judge best |
| 00:20:30 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> My experience in 10 years of Haskell shows that the difficulties and limitations lie within NEW GHC versions. |
| 00:20:41 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> There's a whole github repo dedicated to it |
| 00:21:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> of course those exist too |
| 00:21:23 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://github.com/tomjaguarpaw/tilapia |
| 00:21:34 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And tooling works fine with 9.6 |
| 00:21:46 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> It doesn't work as fine with new GHC versions |
| 00:21:50 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> That's a fact |
| 00:22:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> So I think your claim is wrong |
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| 00:23:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> fair enough, I won't argue with you |
| 00:25:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and as always, thank you for your work, it's appreciated |
| 00:27:36 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But going forward, GHCup will follow GHCs official LTS releases most likely |
| 00:27:53 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Once they've matured, that is |
| 00:28:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that'll be great, I'm looking forward to it |
| 00:28:52 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> An LTS release is decided beforehand with no knowledge about its quality. So we'll probably wait until the micro version is at 3 or higher |
| 00:30:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or if it's so good there's no minor release for a year, you might make an exception ? |
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| 00:32:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> rather unlikely I suppose |
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| 01:20:37 | <oats> | why does so much code in base and ghc use `case` for binding instead of `let` or `where`? like here: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1401.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.Arr.html#newSTArray |
| 01:21:14 | <c_wraith> | let/where create a thunk when they match on a pattern. case forces evaluation. |
| 01:21:38 | <c_wraith> | > let Just x = Nothing in () |
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| 01:22:25 | <c_wraith> | huh. lambdabot isn't in here right now |
| 01:22:53 | <EvanR> | let x = whatever in y, a thunk makes sense |
| 01:23:15 | <EvanR> | but let Pattern x y z = hopefullyPattern in e ? |
| 01:23:30 | <EvanR> | doesn't immediately evaluate? |
| 01:23:32 | <c_wraith> | Well, anyway. (let Just x = Nothing in ()) evaluates to (). (case Nothing of Just x -> ()) is a pattern match error. |
| 01:24:09 | <EvanR> | % let Just x = Nothing in () |
| 01:24:09 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:153:5: warning: [GHC-53633] [-Woverlapping-patterns] ; Pattern match is redundant ; In a pattern binding: Just x = ... ; ; () |
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| 01:24:57 | <c_wraith> | EvanR: Irrefutable matches just create thunks. and in a let/where, matches are irrefutable by default. |
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| 01:26:26 | <EvanR> | wow |
| 01:27:34 | <c_wraith> | > case undefined of ~(a, b) -> () -- you can use ~ to make a match in a case irrefutable |
| 01:27:35 | <lambdabot> | () |
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| 01:28:00 | <oats> | % case undefined of (a,b) -> () |
| 01:28:00 | <yahb2> | *** Exception: Prelude.undefined ; ; HasCallStack backtrace: ; undefined, called at <interactive>:155:6 in interactive:Ghci16 |
| 01:28:11 | <int-e> | it probably got blocked by +r |
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| 01:28:40 | <int-e> | (lamdbabot was perfectly alive, just not joined here) |
| 01:28:50 | <c_wraith> | int-e: ah, you're still running lambdabot? I wasn't sure. |
| 01:29:09 | <oats> | and irrefutable patterns are lazy? |
| 01:29:40 | <oats> | % case undefined of ~(a,b) -> b |
| 01:29:40 | <yahb2> | *** Exception: Prelude.undefined ; ; HasCallStack backtrace: ; undefined, called at <interactive>:157:6 in interactive:Ghci16 |
| 01:29:49 | <oats> | t'would appear |
| 01:29:56 | <c_wraith> | Yeah. "irrefutable" is a slightly weird way of saying "trust the programmer, you don't need to check this immediately" |
| 01:30:33 | <int-e> | c_wraith: yes |
| 01:31:47 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> How can you make patterns in let and where refutable? |
| 01:31:49 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Like you said they're irrefutable "by default" |
| 01:32:14 | <c_wraith> | loonycyborg: You need the BangPatterns extension, then you mark the match with ! |
| 01:33:17 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Ah makes sense I guess |
| 01:33:33 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> and what happens in case of non-exhaustive match at runtime? |
| 01:33:45 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Same thing as usual? |
| 01:34:02 | <c_wraith> | yeah, just the usual error about a pattern match failure |
| 01:34:16 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Sometimes should be converted into "fail" |
| 01:34:30 | <c_wraith> | If it's on the left side of <- in a do block, yes |
| 01:34:47 | <oats> | %let Just x = (Nothing :: Maybe Int) in x |
| 01:35:01 | <oats> | % let Just x = (Nothing :: Maybe Int) in x |
| 01:35:01 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:159:5: warning: [GHC-53633] [-Woverlapping-patterns] ; Pattern match is redundant ; In a pattern binding: Just x = ... ; ; *** Exception: <interactive>:159:5-35: Non-exhausti... |
| 01:35:13 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> but ye, irrefutable and lazy are connected. |
| 01:37:06 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Those seem to be really different things though, so it smells like some theoretical insight here could be made.. |
| 01:37:12 | <int-e> | oats: as recently as GHC 8.8.4, ghc would choke on `let i = 1#` (with or without bang) |
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| 01:38:10 | <c_wraith> | there are also things like GADT matching, where GHC just won't compile code that matches a GADT constructor in a let/where |
| 01:38:11 | <int-e> | So up to that point, `case` was the only way to do this. `case` is also clearer about the order of operations. |
| 01:38:49 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> case is one of few constructs that aren't syntactic sugar for something else. |
| 01:39:13 | <oats> | % do { x <- [1..10]; if (x == 5) then fail "bleh" else pure (); pure x } |
| 01:39:13 | <yahb2> | [1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10] |
| 01:40:33 | <oats> | % do { Just x <- [Just 1, Nothing]; pure x } |
| 01:40:33 | <yahb2> | [1] |
| 01:41:05 | <oats> | wonder what that desugars to |
| 01:41:31 | <c_wraith> | the report actually specifies that. |
| 01:41:37 | <int-e> | @undo do { Just x <- [Just 1, Nothing]; pure x } |
| 01:41:37 | <lambdabot> | [Just 1, Nothing] >>= \ a -> case a of { Just x -> pure x; _ -> fail ""} |
| 01:41:45 | <oats> | int-e: I'm not super clear on #, that's an unboxed integer right? |
| 01:42:25 | <Axman6> | and fail str = [] for [] |
| 01:42:34 | <oats> | @undo [x | Just x <- [Just 1, Nothing] ] |
| 01:42:34 | <lambdabot> | concatMap (\ a -> case a of { Just x -> [x]; _ -> []}) [Just 1, Nothing] |
| 01:42:43 | <int-e> | oats: Int (machine word sized), yes. |
| 01:42:53 | <oats> | interesting, I thought list comprehensions were special in some way |
| 01:42:56 | <oats> | don't remember who told me that |
| 01:43:22 | <c_wraith> | You don't have to write pure. :) |
| 01:43:53 | <oats> | ? |
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| 01:44:16 | <c_wraith> | [ x | x <- foo ] as opposed to do { x <- foo ; pure x } |
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| 01:45:00 | <oats> | oh I was just trying out desugaring list comprehensions, because I thought I remembered someone telling me they were special to ghc in some way |
| 01:45:37 | <c_wraith> | technically they are, but not in a way that influences semantics. There are some performance optimizations. |
| 01:46:10 | <c_wraith> | and @undo doesn't give you what GHC does. It is an independent reimplementation of the rules from the Haskell report. |
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| 01:46:51 | <oats> | gotcha, thanks |
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| 07:46:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> this is really interesting as an intellectual exercise |
| 07:48:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm currently trying to specify a program as a type, such that the type of this value can be generated by AI; the initial plan is to bootstrap itself, by creating a harness that can, given a spec file, be able to use AI to generate a program that satisfies the type&test constraints |
| 07:49:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> ironically it feels like a free monad interpreter is the only sane way to actually type it, because i don't want the AI generating arbitrary effects |
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| 08:28:32 | <merijn> | Liamzee: That sounds like you're just trying to reinvent Epigram but with AI :p |
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| 08:39:18 | <hc> | What's the stateless way to wish you all a happy new year? |
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| 08:42:30 | <Vq> | There are none, wishes are treated as to be effectful (even when they are not). |
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| 08:48:40 | <gentauro> | hc: you are "broadcasting" hereby you are performing multiple effects ;) |
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| 08:59:21 | <hc> | Vq: haha :) |
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| 17:10:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> thanks for the suggestion merijn! |
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| 17:17:53 | <monochrom> | Year -> (Happy, Year) :) |
| 17:18:33 | <monochrom> | (Belated stateless way to say happy new year) |
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| 17:20:37 | <monochrom> | (I thought of that because lately I've been looking at GHC's control0# which is very explicity State# RealWorld -> (# a, State# RealWorld #) etc.) |
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| 17:25:31 | <haskellbridge> | <doc> it's interesting how the IO state monad goes s -> (s,a) while the library state monad goes s -> (a,s)... the former looks better and works better with the (s,) functor but i've gotten more used to the latter due to exposure |
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| 20:10:46 | <Milan_Vanca> | Hello guyz! Is offtopic harshly punished in this channel? :D |
| 20:11:23 | <monochrom> | No. But #haskell-offtopic is better. |
| 20:11:23 | <geekosaur> | depends on what else is going on, but #haskell-offtopic is preferred |
| 20:12:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> If only haskell-offtopic was bridged :'-( |
| 20:12:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> One day I will install an irc client on my work mac and you'll all see |
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| 20:12:54 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Textual is a good one |
| 20:13:20 | <Milan_Vanca> | From where are you bridged from guyz? |
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| 20:14:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Haskell has a community in matrix: https://matrix.to/#/#haskell:matrix.org |
| 20:14:02 | <monochrom> | telnet irc.libera.chat 6667 |
| 20:14:41 | <geekosaur> | that's not what's bridged, by their request. it's #haskell-irc:matrix.org instead |
| 20:15:48 | <Milan_Vanca> | Ty for info :) |
| 20:15:50 | <geekosaur> | I could bridge -offtopic but I suspect various denizens wouldn't like the idea much |
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| 20:56:48 | <jreicher> | Morj: what's the holdup getting an IRC client? The IRC ecosystem is one of the simplest on the internet. Most things are easy to set up and work really well. |
| 20:57:43 | <monochrom> | The networking effect implies that people want popular not simple. |
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| 20:58:40 | <monochrom> | If 90% of your friends use Facebook for example then you're very inclined to adopt Facebook even though it is the biggest mess in all aspects on the planet. |
| 20:58:41 | <geekosaur> | on a mac, that probably means textual |
| 20:58:49 | <geekosaur> | heh |
| 20:59:11 | <tomsmeding> | jreicher: "yet another client to install"? |
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| 21:00:42 | <monochrom> | That reminds me. Perhaps most people's "simple" means "minimum number of apps compatible with most friends". This is known as max-flow-min-cut. >:) |
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| 21:02:34 | <monochrom> | This also explains adoption of programming languages. The minimum number of languages to learn such that... |
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| 21:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | ... such that you can annoy the most people by using the wrong language? |
| 21:03:31 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 21:05:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> jreicher too much choice, combined with 95% of the choices being so dissappointing as to stop the whole process |
| 21:05:44 | <tomsmeding> | what matrix client do you use? |
| 21:06:04 | <dolio> | Yeah, isn't that exactly a description of matrix clients? |
| 21:06:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> A bad one, as they all are :D |
| 21:06:10 | <monochrom> | IRC is so simple it can be fundamentally disapointing to young people to be honest. |
| 21:06:13 | <tomsmeding> | dolio: that's why I was asking :D |
| 21:06:38 | <EvanR> | monochrom, is this why if I want encryption on IRC I have to uses SSL xD (the most popular encryption but not simple) |
| 21:06:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> The simplicity of irc makes it worse because the voice in my head tells me to write my own |
| 21:07:11 | <tomsmeding> | https://tools.suckless.org/ii/ |
| 21:07:13 | <monochrom> | e.g., no images, no code snippet, no PDF, no TeX, no emojis, no this, no that... |
| 21:07:19 | <EvanR> | on the subject of writing your own IRC client ... you have to have encryption now |
| 21:07:33 | <EvanR> | creating a big gap |
| 21:07:56 | <mauke> | I do? |
| 21:08:05 | <EvanR> | on libera isn't it required |
| 21:08:13 | <monochrom> | I think it's s/SSL/TLS/ strictly speaking but yeah. |
| 21:08:41 | <tomsmeding> | why did they rename that again |
| 21:08:44 | <monochrom> | No it isn't required on libera. |
| 21:08:50 | <EvanR> | oh good |
| 21:09:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> If it's tls then it's simple to use a library, if it's something on top of openssl routines it could be annoying to get right |
| 21:09:06 | <jreicher> | All fair comments. I don't use the "popular" clients at all, but I forget that not everyone is as prepared to be unpopular. :p |
| 21:09:26 | <mauke> | I was wondering how preflex was still online |
| 21:09:28 | <EvanR> | if unpopular isn't too much work I'm all for it |
| 21:09:45 | <jreicher> | It might make running for president a bit a tricky. |
| 21:10:02 | <EvanR> | looks at the presidents approval rating |
| 21:10:07 | <EvanR> | seems fine |
| 21:10:32 | <Milan_Vanca> | Encryption on IRC is useless when channels are public either way. |
| 21:10:44 | <EvanR> | big thonk on that one |
| 21:10:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Authentication is useful still |
| 21:10:56 | <jreicher> | Isn't it more for MitM? |
| 21:11:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Exactly |
| 21:11:03 | <EvanR> | this is false, because you don't want your chat to be altered along the way |
| 21:11:09 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
| 21:11:12 | <mauke> | I don't? |
| 21:11:42 | <Milan_Vanca> | EvanR: hmm.. |
| 21:11:42 | <EvanR> | you keep man in the middling my pronouns |
| 21:12:47 | <EvanR> | message integrity codes |
| 21:13:15 | <monochrom> | IMO I don't need encryption or authentication for my IRC because other people don't have economic incentives to do MiTM on my IRC for example. |
| 21:13:29 | <EvanR> | what was that giant attack on christmas |
| 21:13:34 | <EvanR> | economic incentive? |
| 21:13:37 | <EvanR> | xD |
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| 21:13:53 | <EvanR> | people will do shit for free |
| 21:14:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Which attack? |
| 21:14:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> But in case of mitm you have to be in the middle, and that's hard for a script kiddie |
| 21:14:23 | <EvanR> | a seemingly novel botnet relay |
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| 21:14:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Oh. There was also an attack on matrix network around cristmas |
| 21:14:44 | <EvanR> | fucking with us for no reason |
| 21:14:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> So they just hate open source huh |
| 21:14:52 | <mauke> | it's called the "war on christmas" |
| 21:14:57 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 21:15:28 | <monochrom> | But lately I still switched to encryption and SASL because during that christmas attack, libera may blacklist some IP ranges but said it would let me through if I had SASL. |
| 21:16:48 | <jreicher> | Did they allow plain SASL during that time? (I wasn't around) |
| 21:16:58 | <monochrom> | I don't know. |
| 21:17:12 | <monochrom> | But on normal days they do. |
| 21:17:34 | <monochrom> | BTW I had SASL set up, my IP address was no longer blocked. :) |
| 21:17:50 | <jreicher> | Oh yes, that's what I do, and obviously SASL is not offering extra security in that case. I use that mechanism more as a nickserv convenience. |
| 21:18:00 | <EvanR> | I use plain sasl but never got kicked |
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| 21:18:51 | <monochrom> | Err, s/BTW/by the time/ |
| 21:18:55 | <EvanR> | client still says I'm using SSL |
| 21:19:23 | <monochrom> | Perhaps your client turns on SSL behind your back? |
| 21:19:42 | <monochrom> | This is known as MiTM security enhancement. >:) |
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| 22:03:14 | ← | kuribas` parts (~user@2a02-1810-2825-6000-d7bb-ca12-8f88-ad2d.ip6.access.telenet.be) (ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.3)) |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-01-05.