Logs on 2026-01-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:10:48 | <jreicher> | Now you've got me wondering if it's possible to define a type that will allow construction of all the limit ordinals using infinite lists. |
| 00:11:37 | <EvanR> | all the ordinals is ... problematic but you can have a lot of them |
| 00:12:16 | <jreicher> | Yeah it seems to me the "first few" would be straightforward |
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| 00:19:09 | <EvanR> | I think agda makes this nicer by letting you define ordinals indexed by universe, then "useful programs using ordinals" (??) can then be universe polymorphic |
| 00:19:50 | <monochrom> | EvanR: I would be the one that threw in uncomputable bit streams. But I am not being inconsistent; if possible I would threw in uncomputable unary streams too, except that it is impossible, no such thing exists. |
| 00:20:27 | <monochrom> | which is again just the counterintuitive "change '1' to '2' suddenly everything is different". |
| 00:21:11 | <jreicher> | I certainly think it's interesting. It just doesn't seem to be something that should happen, but it does. |
| 00:21:16 | <monochrom> | I mean, if a theorem is counterintuitive, then question the intuition not the theorem. |
| 00:21:22 | <jreicher> | Yes |
| 00:21:44 | <EvanR> | intuition can be adjusted to fit the facts :tm: |
| 00:21:51 | <jreicher> | or question the definitions/axioms that result in the theorem. |
| 00:22:26 | <EvanR> | that's like questioning the game of chess itself if you lose |
| 00:22:39 | <EvanR> | better to play / define another game |
| 00:22:42 | <int-e> | "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." -- John von Neumann |
| 00:22:47 | <jreicher> | More like questioning it if it's too easy or too hard to play. Or not fun. Something like that. |
| 00:23:01 | <jreicher> | Then it arguably doesn't satisfy its goal |
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| 00:23:12 | <monochrom> | Shannon's definition of "information" implies that {0} has 0 bits of information, {0,1} has 1 bit of information. That is already a kind of "everything is different" if you look at the ratio: from 0 to 1 is an infinite percent increase. To a large extent the whole conversation above follows. |
| 00:23:14 | <EvanR> | the game in which you lost nonetheless exists |
| 00:23:16 | <EvanR> | and is valid |
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| 00:23:40 | <int-e> | EvanR: Now that's different. Clearly chess was designed to make me lose! |
| 00:23:51 | <jreicher> | Umm, that's philosophical turf on which I'm very comfortable arguing, but that would be even more off-topic than we already have been. Can still go there if you want. |
| 00:23:59 | <EvanR> | I'm good |
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| 00:24:43 | <EvanR> | monochrom, the zero, infinity, ... rule |
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| 00:26:43 | <TMA> | monochrom: you can still have uncomputable subsets of unary strings though |
| 00:26:53 | <monochrom> | "my car can do 0 to infinity in 60 seconds" >:) |
| 00:27:25 | <monochrom> | TMA: Please don't go there :( >:) |
| 00:29:18 | <TMA> | monochrom: good idea, I'll go to bed instead |
| 00:29:26 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 00:46:07 | <geekosaur> | I really should start kicking those things into #haskell-in-depth |
| 00:46:41 | <monochrom> | But I think we're done. :) |
| 00:47:04 | <monochrom> | But OK! Kicking people into the deep end feels good haha. |
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| 00:48:33 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I've only been peeking in occasionally since I'm busy this afternoon/evening |
| 00:53:28 | <jreicher> | I didn't even know about that channel |
| 00:54:29 | <dolio> | Oh, maybe I should mention. You can set things up differently so that there are are uncomputable bit strings to talk about. And you can identify the computable bit strings as a subset, but is still uncountable. |
| 00:54:52 | <dolio> | That can be a useful perspective. |
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| 00:57:28 | <dolio> | Not because there are 'really' uncomputable bit streams, but because a stream being uncomputable and you not knowing exactly how to compute it (because it doesn't come from some particular definition) act in sort of the same way. |
| 00:58:41 | <dolio> | Like, you can model the bits coming in from your ethernet cable as an 'uncomputable' bit stream, because it is an external entity not subject to your computational model. But you can computably act on the stream. |
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| 01:01:55 | <dolio> | It can even be useful within a computing system. |
| 01:02:51 | <dolio> | Like, `unsafeInterleaveIO` lets you access a bit stream that has no corresponding Haskell term. |
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| 05:01:56 | <jreicher> | monochrom: do you also have lecture notes that deal with countability? (I don't want to restart the topic here; asking only this question) |
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| 11:47:56 | <gentauro> | build elm-compiler 0.19.1 (7 years last commit) with stack, just works as a charm. Trying to build "something" with cabal + flakes … "yeah, let me build that ghc 8.10.7 which isn't really needed for scratch. See you in several hours" :| |
| 11:48:01 | <gentauro> | haha |
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| 11:48:27 | <gentauro> | «avoid success at all costs» (Y) |
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| 11:52:30 | <danza> | it's not that bad |
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| 11:54:16 | <gentauro> | I guess it has to do with Snoyman transitioning to Rust :'( |
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| 12:01:34 | <danza> | cabal has improved quite a lot |
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| 12:11:42 | <gentauro> | danza: it might just be me who don't seem to grasp how `flakes` work. If I do `nix shell --extra-experimental-features flakes --extra-experimental-features nix-command github:NixOS/nixpkgs?ref=nixos-25.05#haskell.compiler.ghc8107` it seems to actually get the `ghc` from NixOS cache |
| 12:12:05 | <danza> | you are conflating nix with cabal. Also, there is #nixos |
| 12:12:21 | <gentauro> | but, when I use `nix build …` it just decides to build `ghc8107` from scratch |
| 12:12:26 | <gentauro> | danza: most likely |
| 12:12:47 | <gentauro> | I'm not use to neither of them. I have kept myself to `stack` which seems to be the "thing that JUST worked" |
| 12:12:50 | <gentauro> | :-\ |
| 12:13:14 | <danza> | well try to add nix to stack XD |
| 12:13:23 | <gentauro> | xD |
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| 12:14:21 | <gentauro> | nah, I usually just tend to drop whatever I'm doing and move on to "greener fields". Used ot be a "gentoo user". I can't make myself to go back to that |
| 12:14:42 | <Vq> | You could do it the old fashioned way without flakes |
| 12:15:37 | <gentauro> | Vq: any exp with flakes? I kind of "not sure" it's the way cos I had to add `--extra-experimental-features` … |
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| 12:15:49 | <gentauro> | (invest time to learn that, if, it's not gonna be a thing) |
| 12:17:10 | <Vq> | gentauro: I have experience with flakes, but I haven't used 'nix shell'. |
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| 12:21:08 | <Lycurgus> | >: |
| 12:21:31 | <gentauro> | Vq: I'm looking for the `flakes` replacement to `nix-shell`. I though it would be as simple as `nix shell` :) |
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| 12:21:50 | <gentauro> | (sometimes you "just" want to try someting out in a sandbox, before installing it) |
| 12:21:51 | <Lycurgus> | devenv? |
| 12:22:33 | <Lycurgus> | also lemme say ftr, claude can strip nix outta ihp |
| 12:22:46 | <gentauro> | `ihp`? |
| 12:23:15 | <Lycurgus> | a pkg |
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| 12:24:34 | <gentauro> | I seem to be stucked in "old-school" NixOS xD |
| 12:25:36 | <Lycurgus> | https://eg.meansofproduction.biz/eg/index.php/NixOS |
| 12:26:33 | <Lycurgus> | those were the lean years in comparison to now |
| 12:27:50 | <Vq> | gentauro: Put this in a file with a name like ghc810_shell.nix: with import (builtins.fetchTarball { name = "nixos-25.05-2026-01-16"; url = "https://github.com/nixos/nixpkgs/archive/ac62194c3917d5f474c1a844b6fd6da2db95077d.tar.gz"; sha256 = "sha256:0v6bd1xk8a2aal83karlvc853x44dg1n4nk08jg3dajqyy0s98np"; }) {}; mkShell { buildInputs = [ haskell.compiler.ghc810 ]; } |
| 12:28:06 | <Vq> | gentauro: And then invoke it with: nix-shell ghc810_shell.nix |
| 12:28:26 | <Vq> | gentauro: That's the old fashioned way to do version pinning. |
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| 12:33:25 | <gentauro> | Vq: Oh, I knew that. That's how I have been doing it up til now. However, projects seem to have moved on to `flakes`. So I'm trying to "learn" how to do stuff like that, but in flakes. |
| 12:33:44 | <gentauro> | the `nix shell --exp … flakes` and the GHC compiler actually works |
| 12:34:18 | <gentauro> | while I'n in `nix shell` with the GHC, I try to do the `nix build …` and point to the flakes.nix and … yeah, it decides to build the ghc8107 anyway |
| 12:34:33 | <gentauro> | I'm guessing it's just me who don't know how to "flakes" |
| 12:34:35 | <gentauro> | :) |
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| 12:37:00 | <Vq> | gentauro: If you write your own flake you can define what the default package, shell and dev-shell is. Now I guess you're relying on what happens to be in nixpkgs. |
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| 12:39:59 | <gentauro> | Vq: I can actually build the `flake.nix` package. That said, I would like to be able to tell the `nix build` «Hey, here is ghc8107 cached, please use that instead of building it from scratch". I will keep investigating and probably become wiser |
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| 12:45:55 | <Vq> | gentauro: Maybe you're getting the environment for building ghc itself? If you define your own mkShell (in a flake) and put ghc810 in its buildInputs it ought to use the same cached version. |
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| 12:46:29 | <gentauro> | Vq: can I make a `flake.nix` and wrap their `flake.nix`? Like inception? |
| 12:48:41 | <Vq> | gentauro: "their" is nixpkgs, no? That one is normal to refer to as an input in your flake. |
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| 12:49:42 | <gentauro> | Vq: I have cloned a git repo and the `flakes.nix` is in the root of the project. When I state "theirs", I mean "flakes.nix in root of git repo" :) |
| 12:51:48 | <gentauro> | anyway, I will read a bit more of -> https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.18/command-ref/new-cli/nix |
| 12:53:31 | <gentauro> | I'm guessing the `build` options https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.18/command-ref/new-cli/nix3-build#options it seems possible to provide `--include` |
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| 17:46:30 | × | Enrico63 quits (~Enrico63@2001:b07:646b:5fed:9efc:e8ff:fe24:3213) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 17:48:01 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
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| 22:00:52 | jmcantrell_ | is now known as jmcantrell |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-01-16.