Logs on 2026-01-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:05:41 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> So, this is breaking my brain... How the heck is this the same as "liftA2" for lists: "cross f xs ys = foldr (\x rec -> (map (f x) ys) ++ rec) [] xs" |
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| 02:06:11 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> cross is the same as liftA2 if you work on lists and I have no clue why!!! |
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| 02:08:23 | <monochrom> | Convert foldr back to your own recursion to see. |
| 02:08:47 | <ncf> | convert foldr to concatMap and remember how the list monad works |
| 02:08:48 | <monochrom> | Alterantively convert your own recursion to foldr to see. :) |
| 02:09:16 | <monochrom> | Or yeah, that. |
| 02:09:21 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Yeah, that makes sense... |
| 02:09:34 | <ncf> | cross f xs ys = xs >>= \x -> map (f x) ys = xs >>= \x -> ys >>= \y -> [f x y] = f <$> xs <*> ys |
| 02:11:47 | <monochrom> | The reason I prefer functional programming is that I just do algebra and see how two programs do the same thing. As opposed to what most people do for imperative programming: talk in "English" "intuition (read: mince and bend words) and call that "understanding". (LLMs proved that it is not understanding.) |
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| 02:21:43 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I see... |
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| 02:22:27 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> for lists "sequenceA" is "foldr (liftA2 (:)) [[]]" |
| 02:22:32 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Huh?!?!? How does that work? |
| 02:23:27 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> sequenceA [[11,12], [21,22]] = [[11,21],[11,22],[12,21],[12,22]] |
| 02:23:49 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> And "foldr (liftA2 (:)) [[]]" does the same thing. |
| 02:25:17 | <monochrom> | I might rewrite "[[]]" as "pure []". |
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| 02:27:20 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I see... that's very similar to "foldr (:) []", but with applicative actions. |
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| 02:28:17 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> How does that compute a Cartesian product though? |
| 02:29:06 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> "cart [[11,12], [21,22]]" is "[[11,21,22],[12,21,22]]" |
| 02:29:58 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Erm... not that. It's late and I'm tired. |
| 02:30:44 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> But sequenceA "foldr (liftA2 (:)) (pure [])" is a Cartesian product, and I'm not sure why. |
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| 02:45:49 | <geekosaur> | list monad with no actions is Cartesian product. maybe you'd find the list comprehension version easier to interpret? |
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| 02:48:44 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> What's the list comprehension version? |
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| 02:49:55 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Why isn't this compiling? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7dBnZHnU |
| 02:52:47 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I want a function that computes all the ways to drop a single element from a list. |
| 02:53:04 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> drop1 [1,2,3] -> [[2,3], [1,3], [1,2]] |
| 02:53:46 | <geekosaur> | xs is [a], drop1 xs is [[a]], map's result type will be the same as its input type as (x:) simply prepends to the inner lists |
| 02:56:20 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I have "map (x:) (drop1 xs)" |
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| 02:56:57 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> (x:) :: [a] -> [a] |
| 02:57:30 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> (drop1 xs) :: [[a]] |
| 02:57:35 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I fail to see the issue here. |
| 02:57:56 | <geekosaur> | xxs is only [a], not [[a]] |
| 02:58:20 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> xxs? |
| 02:58:32 | <geekosaur> | rename the one in map, maybe it'll be a bit clearer (its "[a]" unifies with the "[[a]]" from drop1) |
| 02:58:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Nguyễn Trọng Cường> I have a really stupid question: Is the very first GHC executable written in C? I analysed some modern GHC programs by Detect It Easy and all of them are flagged as "C" and "MinGW" |
| 02:58:59 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I'm trying to use the head of the iinput. |
| 02:59:25 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I'm so lost here... What am I missing? |
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| 03:01:25 | <geekosaur> | ghc was originally written in HBC, a now lost compiler which was itself written in Lazy ML |
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| 03:02:54 | <geekosaur> | I think there's an ancient i386 binary for HBC somewhere, but no source and no guarantee the binary would run on modern systems |
| 03:03:14 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> geekosaur: Am I missing something obvious here? |
| 03:03:19 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> drop1 (x:xs) = xs ++ map (x:) (drop1 xs) |
| 03:03:43 | <EvanR> | and lazy ML was written in |
| 03:03:49 | <geekosaur> | drop1 :: [a] -> [[a]] |
| 03:03:50 | <EvanR> | rather the compiler for it |
| 03:04:09 | <EvanR> | (unlikely to still be available and functioning) |
| 03:04:10 | <geekosaur> | map (x:) (drop1 xs) :: [[a]] -> [[a]] |
| 03:04:15 | <geekosaur> | xs :: [a] |
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| 03:05:06 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I have no clue about LML |
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| 03:05:36 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> How can I fix my code here? |
| 03:06:55 | <geekosaur> | I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do, to be honest. (in part because my focus is all over the place, I'm working on cabal atm and chasing around various housework things…) |
| 03:07:04 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I see.... |
| 03:07:21 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I want a function that computes all the ways to remove a single element from a list. |
| 03:07:28 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> drop1 [1,2,3] -> [[2,3], [1,3], [1,2]] |
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| 03:11:11 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> drop1 (x:xs) = xs : map (\ys -> x:ys) (drop1 xs) |
| 03:11:15 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> That's what I wanted. |
| 03:12:52 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I feel like there should be a way to rewrite this with a foldr: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/nV162kId |
| 03:15:10 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Or, if not a fold, something else that factors out the manual recursion |
| 03:16:30 | <Leary> | > (zipWith (++) . inits <*> tail . tails) [1,2,3] |
| 03:16:32 | <lambdabot> | [[2,3],[1,3],[1,2]] |
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| 03:17:14 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I don't need that specific ordering, but those are the sets I want. |
| 03:17:22 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> If shuffling the ordering is better, feel free to do it. |
| 03:17:53 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I want each list to contain N-1 elements of the input list, in some order. |
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| 03:51:37 | <ncf> | Leary's answer is the way to go, but if you like lens fuckery: |
| 03:51:39 | <ncf> | > catMaybes . peek Nothing <$> holesOf traverse (Just <$> [1,2,3]) |
| 03:51:40 | <lambdabot> | [[2,3],[1,3],[1,2]] |
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| 04:31:27 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> What the fuck is that lens fuckery? |
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| 04:58:28 | <jackdk> | Wow that's cool. |
| 04:59:03 | <probie> | :t holesOf |
| 04:59:04 | <lambdabot> | Conjoined p => Over p (Bazaar p a a) s t a a -> s -> [Control.Lens.Internal.Context.Pretext p a a t] |
| 04:59:48 | <jackdk> | I was very pleased with `bmap (zoom someRecordFieldLens)` the other day and I see I still have much more to learn. |
| 05:00:02 | <probie> | :t holesOf traverse |
| 05:00:03 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => t a -> [Control.Lens.Internal.Context.Pretext (->) a a (t a)] |
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| 05:02:13 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> How the hell does "holesOf" work? |
| 05:02:47 | <dibblego> | @info bmap |
| 05:02:48 | <lambdabot> | bmap |
| 05:03:26 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> ncf: How the hell does that work? |
| 05:03:46 | <probie> | :t holesOf traverse [Just 1] |
| 05:03:47 | <lambdabot> | Num a => [Control.Lens.Internal.Context.Pretext (->) (Maybe a) (Maybe a) [Maybe a]] |
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| 05:06:27 | <probie> | > map (\x -> peek (reverse (pos x)) x) $ holesOf traverse $ words "hello lens world" |
| 05:06:28 | <lambdabot> | [["olleh","lens","world"],["hello","snel","world"],["hello","lens","dlrow"]] |
| 05:07:08 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> What is that doing?!?! |
| 05:07:26 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> It's doing unwords and also reversing one of the words?!?! |
| 05:07:56 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> *doing words |
| 05:08:46 | <probie> | the words was just because I was too lazy to write ["hello", "lens", "world"]. |
| 05:09:26 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> Right, but how the hell are you just reversing only one element at a time? |
| 05:11:45 | <probie> | holesOf takes a traversal and a thing to traverse and gives you a list back, where for every traversed element, you get a "context" of what was around the element |
| 05:13:25 | <probie> | `pos ctx` gives you the element under focus (not used in ncf's thing), and `peek x ctx` "inserts" `x` into the context |
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| 05:16:54 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I see! |
| 05:19:16 | <jackdk> | dibblego: `bmap` is what package `barbies` calls its rank-2 `fmap` (i.e. on functors of kind `(k -> Type) -> Type`) |
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| 05:21:33 | <jackdk> | probie: `peeks reverse` |
| 05:21:53 | <jackdk> | Axman6: get in here we're having fun |
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| 05:39:24 | <dibblego> | ah ok |
| 05:43:40 | <jackdk> | While we're talking about lenses, someone re-uploaded the lost SPJ talk and I think that's great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxGaKn4REaY |
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| 06:05:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Axman6> Hello! |
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| 06:53:36 | <haskellbridge> | <iqubic (she/her)> I need to watch that talk! |
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| 10:00:29 | <gentauro> | jackdk: wasn't it Edward Kmett that implemented `lenses` in Haskell? |
| 10:01:37 | <gentauro> | my last leptop, I had the Haskell logo sticker cos Kmett gave me one :) |
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| 10:02:28 | <lortabac> | `lenses` is older than `lens` IIRC |
| 10:02:40 | <lortabac> | `lens` is the one by Kmett |
| 10:05:15 | <danza> | oh i thought his was the first. Definitely one of the most extensive |
| 10:06:35 | <lortabac> | I may be wrong |
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| 10:37:30 | <gentauro> | iirc, SPJ mentions Kmett in that talk (Haskell eXchange 2013) with pure admiration |
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| 11:57:12 | <oskarw> | Hi everyone, I think I will have interview for Quantitative Developer in haskell. Do you know what how I should prepare before interview? I'm very motivated and have a lot of time at hand. |
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| 12:09:53 | <[exa]> | oskarw: what's a "quantitative" developer? |
| 12:10:49 | <oskarw> | [exa]: "You will work on a wide range of financial-markets projects, from client-facing GUIs to high-performance server-side systems and large-scale reporting tools. Our platforms handle millions of trades and rely heavily on Haskell" |
| 12:11:09 | <[exa]> | so full-stack but but for trading instead of the web? |
| 12:11:11 | <[exa]> | cool :) |
| 12:11:39 | <oskarw> | Generally algorithms for financial market |
| 12:12:14 | <[exa]> | like, I'd assume that company like that will have their own non-public stack for stuff so likely hard to learn in advance |
| 12:12:50 | <[exa]> | otoh there's almost surely gonna be networking, if you've never done raw networking you could try a bit in advance |
| 12:13:17 | <[exa]> | and maybe some actual number crunchery (repa/accelerate?)) |
| 12:13:55 | <oskarw> | What do you mean by raw networking? |
| 12:13:58 | <merijn> | Is that Standard Chartered? Or another one? |
| 12:14:19 | <oskarw> | merijn: Yes, its Standard Chartered |
| 12:14:50 | <merijn> | I mean, Standard Chartered doesn't even use GHC (or at least not exclusively), so that makes preparing ahead of time even trickier :p |
| 12:15:29 | <gentauro> | merijn: they have their own compiler right? |
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| 12:15:31 | <oskarw> | [exa]: I will also bruch up my knowladge about concurrent programming. I've done project in haskell about concurrent programming, but I forgot some of the stuff |
| 12:15:33 | <merijn> | Yes, Mu |
| 12:15:34 | <gentauro> | however, they do use Haskell |
| 12:15:41 | <gentauro> | right? |
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| 12:15:58 | <merijn> | Lennart wrote it and has (so far) not managed to get the lawyers to ok publishing the compiler, and I'm salty about that |
| 12:16:42 | <gentauro> | merijn: :'( |
| 12:16:44 | <oskarw> | merijn: Nevertheless there are surely some algorithm or general bussines knowladge I can learn beforehand |
| 12:17:06 | <gentauro> | I guess they make a ton of money. Everytime I see Liverpool FC play, I kind of giggle -> https://www.liverpoolfc.com/corporate/partners |
| 12:17:33 | <oskarw> | merijn: Do you know what is stoping lawyers to open source MU? |
| 12:17:43 | <gentauro> | oskarw: profits ;) |
| 12:18:23 | <gentauro> | I was working on a FP-project. We gave the talk showcasing it. All the attendees "voted" (by raising their hand) to "open source it". Next day, legal said: No |
| 12:18:25 | <oskarw> | And for one moment I though about security by obscurity or something |
| 12:18:29 | <gentauro> | welcome to corpo world xD |
| 12:19:02 | <oskarw> | So sad, but what we can do about it |
| 12:19:22 | <gentauro> | oskarw: they pay "our bills" so "they decide". I think it's fair ;) |
| 12:19:33 | <gentauro> | (not ideal though) |
| 12:20:00 | <oskarw> | gentauro: This is fair, but it is still sad |
| 12:20:35 | <oskarw> | I'm always curios how fast would competition "catch up" to using custom variant of haskell |
| 12:21:05 | <gentauro> | oskarw: inferring from your name, are you the one that made "Idris in PureScript"? :) |
| 12:21:10 | <oskarw> | I think lawyers think this would be just copy-paste |
| 12:21:32 | <[exa]> | oskarw: most of the competition has issues catching up with the fact that they'd even use haskell |
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| 12:22:21 | <oskarw> | gentauro: Unfortuneteller no, oskarw is just my name with first letter of surname |
| 12:22:49 | <oskarw> | *unfortunately |
| 12:23:03 | <gentauro> | oskarw: but you are swede right? ;) |
| 12:23:04 | <oskarw> | [exa]: Probably true |
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| 12:23:20 | <oskarw> | No, I'm from Poland |
| 12:23:52 | <gentauro> | oh, my bad |
| 12:24:32 | <[exa]> | oskarw: btw the good point for interviews is that if you already know some haskell you're basically guaranteed fast learner :D |
| 12:24:51 | <oskarw> | I would be salty if I was named Oskar instead of Ansgar being born as Swede |
| 12:24:55 | <gentauro> | oskarw: I though you were -> https://wickstrom.tech/ |
| 12:24:56 | <gentauro> | xD |
| 12:25:08 | <oskarw> | Aaa xd |
| 12:25:34 | <oskarw> | I will check his site |
| 12:25:43 | <oskarw> | Now I feel like impostor xd |
| 12:25:59 | <__monty__> | Isn't Mu eager rather than lazy? That's a pretty big difference from Haskell, no? |
| 12:26:08 | <gentauro> | oskarw: xD |
| 12:27:22 | <oskarw> | __monty__: Can I learn some MU beforehand? Or this langauge exist only inside company? |
| 12:27:56 | <oskarw> | [exa]: I always strive to learn more |
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| 12:28:45 | <gentauro> | __monty__: so `Mu` just prepends `{-# LANGUAGE Strict #-}` on all files? :D |
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| 12:30:10 | <[exa]> | oskarw: there are nice slides here https://icfp21.sigplan.org/details/hiw-2021-papers/14/Haskell-reinterpreted-large-scale-real-world-experience-with-the-Mu-compiler-in-Fin |
| 12:30:14 | <oskarw> | There is interview with employee from Standard Chartered and he says that MU have recursion disabled by default :skull: |
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| 12:30:32 | <gentauro> | merijn: are we talking about Lennart Augustsson (currently at EPIC with SPJ)? |
| 12:30:46 | <oskarw> | [exa]: Thank you for slides |
| 12:30:51 | <merijn> | gentauro: Yeah |
| 12:30:59 | <oskarw> | I knew that irc was right place to ask for help |
| 12:31:21 | <gentauro> | I'm a fan of his MicroHS compiler :) |
| 12:31:38 | <merijn> | gentauro: Writing Haskell compilers is his hobby (and job, I guess :p) |
| 12:31:48 | <merijn> | I think he's written like, 4? |
| 12:32:05 | <[exa]> | lol the slides basically hint that microhs is an exfiltrated mu |
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| 12:32:30 | <gentauro> | merijn: xD |
| 12:32:42 | <merijn> | Including (iirc my history correctly) the very first one |
| 12:32:53 | <merijn> | Although I'm not 100% sure |
| 12:33:15 | <__monty__> | oskarw: Is this for a junior position? |
| 12:33:49 | <oskarw> | __monty__: Yes |
| 12:34:01 | <gentauro> | merijn: do you know if he "schooled" from Chalmers? |
| 12:34:17 | <merijn> | Wait, he wrote LPmud? :O |
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| 12:35:44 | <oskarw> | __monty__: For Poland and India |
| 12:37:38 | <gentauro> | oskarw: have you been to the MonadicParty in Poznan? I understand from Michael that they no longer do it :( |
| 12:38:15 | <oskarw> | I have never been in MonadicParty in Poznań :( |
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| 12:39:06 | <oskarw> | gentauro: Last one was in 2020, before covid |
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| 12:41:03 | <oskarw> | So there is no way for me to learn MU? |
| 12:43:12 | <oskarw> | I guess I can learn some strategies for coping with lack of lazy evaluation and recursion |
| 12:43:29 | <oskarw> | And some concurrence |
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| 12:45:05 | <oskarw> | I can also look into microhs, is this is exfiltrated mu ;p |
| 12:45:40 | <gentauro> | oskarw: having conducted "a few" job interviews, we rarely put too much emphasis on you being able to solve 100% something you don't know |
| 12:46:05 | <gentauro> | however, it's a good way to see how your problem solving skills with something that is "totally new to you" |
| 12:46:35 | <gentauro> | how do you approach the task. How do you interact with the interviewer and so on. |
| 12:47:15 | <gentauro> | as you said yourself, get the basics right (quantative algos and haskell) and you do fine :) |
| 12:47:31 | <oskarw> | gentauro: Okay, so I just have to git gud with basics |
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| 12:48:15 | <oskarw> | gentauro: Thank you for insight, I will start learning quantative algos then |
| 12:48:29 | <oskarw> | I'm so pumped up |
| 12:49:32 | <oskarw> | Thanks again everyone, I love this channel |
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| 13:24:32 | <[exa]> | oskarw: <3 this channel loves you!!! <3 |
| 13:25:21 | <oskarw> | [exa]: This made my day |
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| 13:26:15 | <[exa]> | ...now back to haskell! |
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| 15:59:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> g'day all.. there's a recent lovely interview with Lennart Augustsson on the haskell interlude podcast |
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| 22:42:11 | <jackdk> | gentauro: There were a bunch of people who worked on it. I wasn't there for the history but Twan Van Laarhoven invented the `type Lens s a = forall f . Functor f => (a -> f a) -> s -> f s` form: https://www.twanvl.nl/blog/haskell/cps-functional-references . The type-changing form `Lens s t a b` came after someone (don't remember who) wrote a lens for `_1` without putting a type signature on it, and GHC inferred with a more general type. |
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| 22:46:43 | <EvanR> | strive for the most general type signature, no not generaler --einstein |
| 22:47:06 | <EvanR> | but not* uhg |
| 22:47:14 | <EvanR> | also einstein |
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| 22:47:20 | <jackdk> | gentauro: also https://github.com/ekmett/lens/wiki/History-of-Lenses . But the SPJ talk is the most approachable introduction I've seen, and does a decent job of motivating the VL form |
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| 23:14:16 | <jackdk> | Perhaps most approachable free intro. Optics By Example is worth the price. |
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| 23:20:24 | <chromoblob> | how the fuck are you supposed to write Haskell without recursion |
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| 23:20:52 | <chromoblob> | and how is Haskell without recursion supposed to be useful |
| 23:23:28 | <geekosaur> | I think tht usually means without _explicit_ recursion, e.g. using folds/traverses |
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| 23:34:18 | <jreicher> | chromoblob: who's saying you should write Haskell without recursion? |
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