Logs on 2026-01-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:58:16 | <gentauro> | EvanR: in FP, everything is data ;) |
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| 08:03:23 | <gentauro> | `type expr = Var of string | Lam of (string * expr) | App of (expr * expr)` (in OcaML) |
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| 09:11:49 | <jreicher> | gentauro: in Lisp everything is data. In FP everything is a function. That's why you can mutate in Lisp but you can't in FP. |
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| 09:28:56 | <merijn> | jreicher: uh, hard disagree |
| 09:29:07 | <merijn> | In FP everything is not a function |
| 09:29:26 | <merijn> | In fact, lots of things are not functions |
| 09:31:58 | <int-e> | Also the thing that strongly discourages mutation is lazy evaluation, because that makes it extremely difficult to reason about when mutations take place unless you impose some radical discipline (like CPS or threading a virtual state token through operations with side effects) |
| 09:32:46 | <int-e> | ML just puts you place mutable references any place you like. |
| 09:32:55 | <int-e> | puts -> lets |
| 09:44:34 | <gentauro> | jreicher: LISP is FP ;) |
| 09:45:13 | <gentauro> | and it's "type-safe". Just not enforce statically |
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| 11:29:45 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> everything is a type? also, Common Lisp people would have a bone to pick with you |
| 11:32:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> for a brief moment i regretted that IO wasn't traversable, but then again, how could you get IO to be foldable? |
| 11:32:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> for _IOCheck $ \something -> ... |
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| 11:58:00 | <opqdonut> | isn't the foldable/traversable instance for IO trivial? It contains a single value. |
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| 11:58:32 | <opqdonut> | oh sorry, not foldable, can't unIO |
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| 13:25:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> is there a way around this? |
| 13:25:39 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/ptBfheGxAndftWFfLmlImUig/HEYosfzlhmE (23 lines) |
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| 13:28:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> (the workaround would possibly be to add an equation "a_b ~ (Fst a_b, Snd a_b)" to the type signature of "lengthT2") |
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| 13:47:47 | <Leary> | Man of Letters (Mikolaj): Relevant issue: <https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/7259>; these "eta-rules" aren't sound in current GHC due to some type family foibles, but there's no issue with taking them as explicit constraints or matching on `T`, if either help. |
| 13:49:16 | <Leary> | For that specific example I would say "just don't give `lengthT` that type", but I doubt that advice generalises to your actual code. |
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| 13:59:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> Leary: thank you; spot on, too bad, yeah, I guess I may try to use the internals of the libraries I use to write versions of some of their functions specifically for "(a, b), but it's a shame; if I had "Fst"and"Snd` maybe constraints in my own code would suffice, but probably these would trigger the same unsoundness that GHC assuming them does |
| 13:59:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> - '(a, b) |
| 14:16:14 | <ags> | What advantage does `Servant` have over `Yesod`? I understand that `Servant` is able to automatically generate a lot of stuff but it seems to me that `Yesod` is able to achieve the same type-safety via TemplateHaskell and QuasiQuotes. Am I missing something? |
| 14:20:31 | <Leary> | Man of Letters (Mikolaj): What's unsound is `eta :: forall t. t :~: (Fst t, Snd t); eta = unsafeCoerce (Refl @t)`---so long as you aren't cooking with `unsafeCoerce` there won't be a problem. Re `Fst` and `Snd`, they're just ordinary closed type families. |
| 14:20:55 | <Leary> | '(* |
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| 14:22:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> oh, so I _can_ define "Fst"; let me try in that case... |
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| 14:28:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> yay, it works and in both directions: |
| 14:28:32 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/NXWYnHcDHOAropDWOwElprDd/SxwevPmJWUA (7 lines) |
| 14:29:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> let me try my big project that uses https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-enummap ... |
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| 14:33:40 | <mjacob> | EvanR, monochrom: With “cycle” in FRP, I meant that, if the program is converted to a dataflow graph where the nodes represent computations and edges represent uses, a cycle in that graph. |
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| 15:36:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> unfortunately, this failed in the wild at use of higher-order functions with quantified arguments, similarly as in |
| 15:36:36 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/xIMBotwOvnctkswZfetBzvsv/igMLrx_ztsQ (14 lines) |
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| 15:38:33 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> that could probably be worked around by inserting something like "a_b ~ '(Fst a_b, Snd a_b)" into "h", but the point is, in general "h" comes from an external library and is not limited to type pairs and should not be changed for each type of arguments the users of the library may want to use it for |
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| 15:41:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Man of Letters (Mikolaj)> (and is not limited to type "T", but works for any type operator "k"; here it uses T and type pairs and it still fails even then) |
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| 23:08:26 | trickard_ | is now known as trickard |
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| 23:27:42 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
| 23:35:48 | × | trickard quits (~trickard@cpe-80-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-01-26.