Logs on 2026-01-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:19:39 | <raincomplex> | do you all have any favorite resources (preferably text) about modularity, problem/system decomposition, designing and organizing complex codebases, that type of thing? |
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| 09:12:02 | <f-a> | What is the proper way to shut `head` deprecation warnings in ghci? |
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| 09:12:48 | <probie> | don't use `head` |
| 09:13:16 | <int-e> | {-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-x-partial #-} |
| 09:13:31 | <f-a> | thanks int-e |
| 09:14:14 | <int-e> | import Prelude hiding (head); head (x:xs) = x |
| 09:14:26 | int-e | runs |
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| 09:20:15 | <gentauro> | int-e: pattern matching in Haskell aren't exhaustive by default right? |
| 09:20:37 | <gentauro> | I recall a talk from SPJ were he stated that PM is and exponential problem |
| 09:21:56 | <jreicher> | What is an "exponential problem"? |
| 09:22:29 | <tomsmeding> | no sub-exponential algorithm known, perhaps? (I don't know) |
| 09:22:30 | <int-e> | that seems unrelated to these particular warnings though (and the fact that they can't be overridden in a good way that would indicate call sites that are vetted to be fine) |
| 09:22:43 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 09:25:31 | <jreicher> | I still don't get this. I thought pattern matching would be linear. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding the measure. |
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| 09:26:27 | <lortabac> | jreicher: trying all the equations one by one would be inefficient |
| 09:26:49 | <lortabac> | efficient compilation of pattern matching is a little more involved |
| 09:27:10 | <probie> | The `case` in core is linear, but Haskell itself is a bit more lenient |
| 09:27:22 | <jreicher> | Linear is inefficient. I just don't understand why it would be worse than linear. |
| 09:27:30 | <int-e> | gentauro: Doesn't ring a bell but I imagine that if you implement Haskell's pattern matching while avoiding matching the same scrutinee twice, you'll end up with cases that have to keep track of exponentially many cases of what has been matched and what hasn't, and correspondingly, exponentially many code paths. |
| 09:27:33 | <tomsmeding> | jreicher: exhaustivity checking, I think |
| 09:28:02 | <int-e> | exponential in the number of cases in the source code |
| 09:28:04 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: what's the parameter then? What's "n", if you know what I mean? |
| 09:28:15 | <jreicher> | That's still vague. |
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| 09:29:18 | <int-e> | jreicher: I wasn't answering you anyway, just clarifying what I wrote. |
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| 09:32:15 | <tomsmeding> | jreicher: > Sekar et al. [25] show that the problem of finding redundant clauses is NP-complete, by encoding the boolean satisfiability (SAT) problem into it. |
| 09:32:27 | <tomsmeding> | (citation: section 3.4 of https://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~tom.schrijvers/Research/papers/icfp2015.pdf ; cited work: https://epubs.siam.org/doi/abs/10.1137/S0097539793246252 ) |
| 09:32:48 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: but why is that pattern matching? |
| 09:33:00 | <tomsmeding> | it's pattern match exhaustivity checking |
| 09:33:12 | <int-e> | Something like this should do the trick: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/81e97dc6 |
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| 09:34:02 | <tomsmeding> | (that first paper describes the algorithm in GHC before the newest LYG algorithm; the LYG paper ( https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3408989 ) claims it has the same complexity as that) |
| 09:35:07 | <jreicher> | Ta |
| 09:35:30 | <tomsmeding> | Whether this is NP-complete only because the output size may be exponential, or whether it may also be if the output size is small, I don't know |
| 09:36:17 | <int-e> | Where Haskell demands that you match the first argument, then optionally the fourth, then the second, then optionally the fifth, then the third argument, then optionally the sixth... and now if you want to avoid redundant pattern matches, you have to keep track of which of the first 3 arguments were equal to A when tackling the next 3 cases. And you can scale that up to 2*n arguments and 2^n... |
| 09:36:23 | <int-e> | ...cases to keep track of. |
| 09:37:26 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: IIRC output size isn't relevant to NP-completeness. That class is only defined for decision problems |
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| 09:37:58 | <tomsmeding> | sure, but you can typically turn a computation problem into a decision problem by checking whether the output satisfies some condition |
| 09:38:17 | <int-e> | And you can encode 3-SAT if you're checking pattern completeness. |
| 09:38:31 | <tomsmeding> | ah right |
| 09:38:50 | <tomsmeding> | ok so the GMTM paper undersells the problem a little bit, because it likens it to the complexity of hindley-milner |
| 09:39:38 | <tomsmeding> | which is, iirc, polynomially bounded by the collective size of the types it outputs (for all subterms), and thus only exponential if you give it a program that has exponentially large inferred types |
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| 09:45:32 | <gentauro> | jreicher: and int-e if you pm on `case (x_1, x_2, …, x_n) of …` then you will have an upperbound of 2^n cases |
| 09:45:54 | <gentauro> | that's what I recall from the SPJ talk |
| 09:46:05 | <gentauro> | so PM is a "very difficult" problem to solve |
| 09:46:17 | <gentauro> | rather said, exhaustive PM. |
| 09:47:10 | <int-e> | gentauro: an upper bound is not a hardness proof though :P |
| 09:47:32 | <Axman6> | > map (\x -> peek (reverse (pos x)) x) $ holesOf traverse $ words "hello lens world" |
| 09:47:33 | <lambdabot> | [["olleh","lens","world"],["hello","snel","world"],["hello","lens","dlrow"]] |
| 09:47:42 | <jreicher> | Hmm. I thought that would be nlogn. I haven't read the papers yet, but you have max n comparisons of logn length bitstrings |
| 09:49:00 | <int-e> | jreicher: pattern matching isn't strictly left to right because of wildcard patterns |
| 09:49:21 | <int-e> | so it's not analogous to strings at all |
| 09:50:18 | <jreicher> | int-e: I know, which is why I was asking for a more specific definition before, but gentauro just offered "n" as the number of cases. |
| 09:50:18 | <int-e> | and also, in case that wasn't clear, you /can/ translate pattern matching without any blowup if you accept redundant matches |
| 09:50:45 | × | CiaoSen quits (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 09:50:54 | <jreicher> | I'm just not seeing the problem definition clearly. I freely admit that. |
| 09:52:01 | <int-e> | jreicher: you're still cross-attributing messages from me and gentauro |
| 09:53:29 | <gentauro> | int-e: and jreicher: I think I found the talk "Simon Peyton Jones - Pattern Match Warnings - How Hard Can It Be?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hJtTIkDr5U |
| 09:53:56 | <gentauro> | I was actually there :) |
| 09:54:17 | <gentauro> | I really miss the hole eXchange concept :'( |
| 10:05:48 | <int-e> | jreicher: Anyway. The reason why I wrote up that example was to show that it wouldn't rely on any big patterns or huge numbers of arguments but stay polynomially bounded in the number of cases, at which point the precise parameter you pick stops to matter. |
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| 10:06:41 | <int-e> | (unless you want to distinguish between linear and quadratic growth, say, but I didn't do that) |
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| 10:12:27 | <gentauro> | tl;dw -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hJtTIkDr5U&t=241s (around 04:01 ish) |
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| 20:15:50 | <dutchie> | I feel like I'm missing some insight to fill in the rest of leavesByDepth here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rXNhmaqV |
| 20:16:03 | <dutchie> | I need to sort of recursively sum? |
| 20:17:36 | <monochrom> | What does "leavesByDepth" mean? |
| 20:18:43 | <dutchie> | the number of elements of type a at each depth of the tree |
| 20:19:11 | <dutchie> | so there is 1 at the top of the tree, then one for each child at depth 1, and so on recursively |
| 20:19:35 | <dutchie> | maybe "leaves" is the wrong word, "values" would be better I guess |
| 20:20:50 | <int-e> | > map sum (transpose [[1],[1,3,3,1],[1,2]]) |
| 20:20:51 | <lambdabot> | [3,5,3,1] |
| 20:25:27 | <monochrom> | Yeah what int-e said. In that example, the root has 3 children, map leavesByDepth (those 3 chidlren) = [[1], [1,3,3,1], [1,2]]. So you want to turn that into [1+1+1, 3+2, 3, 1]. |
| 20:25:41 | <dutchie> | ah transpose |
| 20:25:54 | <dutchie> | of course! |
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| 20:27:22 | <dutchie> | thank you |
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| 22:45:07 | <Guest41> | hello! |
| 22:45:50 | <Guest41> | Does anyone else find haskell hard to learn using chatgpt, I can get working code of cute snippets and programs but I feel like if OpenAI went bankrupt I would be useless lol, or would take forever to type down |
| 22:46:06 | × | EvanR quits (~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:46:42 | <ski> | how about learning from a textbook ? |
| 22:47:18 | <ski> | or, perhaps, a course, like |
| 22:47:22 | <ski> | @where CIS194 |
| 22:47:22 | <lambdabot> | <https://github.com/byorgey/haskell-course>,<https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html> |
| 22:47:31 | <Guest41> | I have this one : Introduction to Computation: Haskell, Logic and Automata |
| 22:47:43 | <Guest41> | but maybe I should go along it with the course as well :-) |
| 22:47:47 | ski | wouldn't learn anything using an LLM chatbot |
| 22:48:36 | <tomsmeding> | (you don't know yet which of its output is useful and which is not) |
| 22:48:48 | <ski> | when you're learning something, you don't want to deal with the risk of hallucinations |
| 22:49:19 | <ski> | when you know more about an area, you can (more) tell what is nonsense, and what isn't |
| 22:49:28 | <ski> | when you're just learning, you can't |
| 22:49:30 | <Guest41> | been programming for a long long while in C,C++,python,verilog,etc. so I can "kind of" tell when it's lying |
| 22:49:52 | <Guest41> | but you're right I can't just google all the output and hope to double check everything, the small hallucination risk sucks there |
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| 22:50:48 | <Guest41> | Huh actually <https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/inf1/fp/> is the course for the textbook I do have, hooray! |
| 22:51:02 | <ski> | most of those are "mostly the same" (not counting Verilog), when comparing to Haskell |
| 22:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | having much programming experience is of course very helpful, but still, programming in haskell requires a rather different mindset than for more traditional imperative languages |
| 22:51:25 | <tomsmeding> | you should expect to feel like a programming noob, at least for a little while :) |
| 22:51:52 | <ski> | coming at it with a mindset that you don't know programming yet, helps, yes |
| 22:51:57 | <tomsmeding> | as you get a little experience with functional programming, you'll start to see the connections to what you've been doing so far and you'll be able to use all your knowledge |
| 22:52:17 | <Guest41> | yeah maybe just having a student mindset instead of trying to blaze thru would help |
| 22:52:31 | <ski> | some things will be different, sometimes very different. some things will carry over. but it's better to defer comparisions until you've got the basics covered |
| 22:52:37 | <Guest41> | I always try to make small little projects that increase in complexity and that's how I learn to program in new languages |
| 22:52:41 | <ski> | you will have to unlearn old habits |
| 22:52:53 | <tomsmeding> | then again, learn as you wish, as long as you have fun it's probably fine :) |
| 22:53:04 | <tomsmeding> | keep thinking |
| 22:53:07 | <Guest41> | so far I've made conways' game of life, snake, a simple sat solver, and now i'm working on a stochastic parrot |
| 22:53:22 | <Guest41> | yeah lots of unlearning, separating IO for example is very weird :laugh: |
| 22:54:07 | <ski> | one could view it as taking "separate internal machinery from UI presentation" to a higher degree |
| 22:54:18 | <jreicher> | Guest41: chatgpt won't teach you anything. That's not what it does. |
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| 22:55:18 | <jreicher> | LLMs model language that exists. Teaching, by definition, requires modelling ignorance. |
| 22:55:42 | <tomsmeding> | there's teaching content on haskell and other FP topics out there, and that's part of the "language that exists" |
| 22:56:10 | <tomsmeding> | as you can see, I also don't agree that learning just from an LLM is a good strategy, but "teaching is not what is does" is slightly overly reductive |
| 22:56:18 | <jreicher> | Yes, but summarising well written teaching text can't make it better. It was already well written. It's only going to make it worse. |
| 22:56:29 | <tomsmeding> | it can't make it better, but it can make it more personalised |
| 22:56:46 | <jreicher> | I'll concede that's possible, but I think I'd like to see it. |
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| 22:57:42 | <tomsmeding> | LLMs are an amazing search engine: if you want to know what weird GHC extension gives you `foo @Int` syntax, for example, it's essentially guaranteed to be able to tell you "that's TypeApplications", and then you can look up the docs for that |
| 22:57:57 | <tomsmeding> | whereas putting "@Int" in a search engine is guaranteed to fail |
| 22:58:39 | <jreicher> | Yep, I've been using them for searching. But as soon as I feel like I need to learn an underlying concept that might be new for me, I follow the link to the source. |
| 22:58:40 | Rembane | shakes fist at Google |
| 22:58:48 | tomsmeding | too |
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| 22:59:22 | tomsmeding | shakes fist at Rembane's shaking fist |
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| 23:00:37 | <Rembane> | tomsmeding: Now we just need to figure out how to shake fist recursively and we will have the ultimate old-man-yelling-at-clouds sourcery! |
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| 23:01:11 | <tomsmeding> | there's probably a way to make a circular Shake build recipe called "fist" |
| 23:01:30 | ski | idly ponders corecursion |
| 23:03:01 | <Rembane> | fix . Shake $ fist |
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| 23:04:04 | Guest41 | nods |
| 23:04:14 | Guest41 | runs away as fast as he can towards textbooks |
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| 23:04:35 | <tomsmeding> | I think #haskell is not the right place to go if you want to talk about LLMs lol |
| 23:05:03 | <jreicher> | Oh dear, we really did scare them off. |
| 23:05:45 | <tomsmeding> | well, some amount of scaring was appropriate, perhaps; not sure if scaring them away was necessary |
| 23:05:47 | <tomsmeding> | oh well |
| 23:06:04 | ski | doubts it was scaring off |
| 23:06:30 | <Rembane> | Maybe they'll come back. We'll see. |
| 23:07:17 | <ski> | they could just be humorously expressing that they want to go to focus on the links provided, and not be distracted |
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| 23:07:55 | <tomsmeding> | possible yes, and in any case if we did scare them off I think we were considerate enough; opinions were expressed, but then, that's what you go on the internet for |
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| 23:12:11 | <__monty__> | While I'm sure an LLM could also tell you, DDG gives me two hits in the first three results with the query `GHC foo @Int`. Burning a whole lot less energy in the process and not being built on nearly as exploitative a technology. |
| 23:12:32 | <tomsmeding> | that's better than I expected |
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| 23:12:51 | <tomsmeding> | and the user guide is even one of them! |
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| 23:16:33 | <jreicher> | The whole energy consumption aspect is pretty depressing. I really struggle with that. |
| 23:17:00 | <tomsmeding> | it's one of the main reasons I hesitate to use them even for tasks they are appropriate for |
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| 23:20:59 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> For me also the moral, copyright, and corporate control aspects |
| 23:21:59 | <[exa]> | c'mon guys no one ever had issues from listening to a good advisor with plenty of great ideas coming from whoknowswhere |
| 23:22:10 | <jreicher> | I really like Hinton's point (other people have probably made it to) that biological brains provide a tradeoff of being uncopyable but very low power consumption. It's a surprising (for me) way of looking at it, but makes sense. |
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| 23:23:30 | <[exa]> | jreicher: wouldn't say "uncopyable", more like "gotten too squishy to do much else than thinking" |
| 23:23:58 | tomsmeding | likes squishy matrices |
| 23:25:24 | <jreicher> | "Uncopyable" is my paraphrase. The full point is that with software you can produce multiple instances from the one training history. But when you train a biological brain, you only have that instance. |
| 23:26:47 | <[exa]> | like, getting identical copies of fresh brains ain't easy for sure |
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| 23:27:11 | [exa] | -> back to haskell |
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| 23:29:14 | <Rembane> | I want a hot spare |
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| 23:38:16 | <__monty__> | Are brains really that low energy? 2000 kcal/day = 2.3 kWh/day. From a random website a computer used 8 h/day will use about 146 kWh/year. So that's roughly half a brain. Unless we face that fact that most of our brain power is probably dedicated to "wasted" computation, like acquiring food, procreating etc. |
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