Logs on 2026-02-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:32:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> does a minimal logFn work ? |
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| 03:27:00 | <feetwind> | hm. the default haskell nix infra does build docs for packages by default. sometimes i look at it by poking into /nix/store/...-docs; but is there a better/intended way to view such docs? i know stack does have a feature like that which might be the easiest option... |
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| 03:34:04 | <jackdk> | I normally do that too, but I suppose you could enter a dev shell and run hoogle |
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| 03:46:08 | <feetwind> | stack:yes - so you can use `system-ghc: true` in a stack.yaml and that ghc will happily use all the available packages [e.g. installed by cabal or nix env]. then do `stack haddock --only-dependencies` to generate the index |
| 03:46:58 | <feetwind> | also "$(which ghc)/../../share/doc" does actually contain all the docs for available packages (where that ghc is from ghcWithPackages [all my local deps here]). but sadly no index.html linking them all together |
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| 08:58:33 | <gentauro> | I was looking at -> https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.23/command-ref/nix-shell.html?highlight=shebang#use-as-a--interpreter and does anybody know if `nix-shell -i runghc …` is interpreted Haskell or pre-compiled before exec? |
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| 08:59:44 | gentauro | if it's pre-compiled, where is the binary located? |
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| 09:05:49 | <int-e> | `runghc` compiles to bytecode on the fly and runs that, more or less like ghci |
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| 09:13:45 | <probie> | You can `runhaskell --ghc-arg=-fobject-code` if you want it to compile (but it won't clean up after itself, so you'll get a bunch of .o and .hi files) |
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| 09:33:18 | <gentauro> | int-e: got it |
| 09:34:27 | <gentauro> | probie: I will stick to `run-DMC`, I mean, `runGHC` (I see what you did there) |
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| 18:24:28 | <eason> | o/ |
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| 21:01:52 | <bwe> | Is there some minimum working example of basic errors with Megaparsec you can recommend? I mean from `type Parser a = ...` to just calling `fail` in some parser with my custom error type. I find https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec#parse-errors too confusing and haven't found any code example on github that is enlightening. |
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| 21:10:04 | <[exa]> | bwe: hey watsup :) |
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| 21:12:36 | <[exa]> | re megaparsec errors, I always ended up with just labeling the parser properly because in the end I didn't invent any extra value to carry in the custom errors. Might be more interesting for recovery-ish parsers |
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| 21:16:30 | <mauke> | fail takes a string; you don't get to fail with a custom error type |
| 21:18:34 | <mauke> | https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec#parse-errors:~:text=custom%20parse%20error |
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| 21:18:43 | <mauke> | looks reasonable |
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| 21:53:33 | <ElementalFluorin> | So, what’s the quickest way to get my cabal project to run in the browser? (It uses SDL2) |
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| 21:56:40 | <ElementalFluorin> | GHC’s documentation seems to assume Windows or something else that tries to not integrate with the package manager as is typical for Winodws. But I’m running Gentoo, so I really would like to avoid things that without windows would not even exist, like ghcup. Or manual building. |
| 21:57:14 | <monochrom> | ghcup exists on Linux. Actually even better than in Windows. |
| 21:57:58 | <monochrom> | Actually ghcup was written for Linux first. (It was even a bash script back then.) |
| 21:58:32 | <tomsmeding> | ElementalFluorin: I'm not sure where you got the information that GHC documentation suggests Windows. Windows support exists, and Haskell works fine on Windows, but only with a Linux emulation layer called MinGW. The platform where GHC is most at home is Linux. |
| 21:59:41 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Wake me up when gentoo gets an unbroken package manager |
| 21:59:54 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 22:00:23 | <tomsmeding> | is it more broken than the situation on Windows? Last I looked, it was a challenge to get GHC and Git to work in the same terminal session |
| 22:00:35 | <geekosaur> | the claim wasn't "windows", it was "don't use the package manager". which is correct on all platforms, because the package manager's haskell (and perl and python and …) serves the packagers, not developers |
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| 22:01:41 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
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| 22:02:01 | <geekosaur> | you can still break a debian/ubuntu installation pretty badly with a global install of an unexpected version of the wrong perl module(s) |
| 22:02:05 | ElementalFluorin | is now known as FluoridinatedFlu |
| 22:02:23 | <geekosaur> | the same with python used to be true of fedora untill they started installing a private python setup just for their tools to use |
| 22:02:59 | <tomsmeding> | isn't this the same with any language runtime that tries to have its own global package database? NodeJS (npm) has the same issue |
| 22:03:06 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 22:03:53 | <geekosaur> | so the real moral here is "regardless of language, don't trust the global package manager if you want to do development, because those packages aren't there for your use |
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| 22:04:07 | <geekosaur> | " |
| 22:04:22 | <tomsmeding> | or: if you use a package manager that is not the system package manager, don't use it to globally install stuff |
| 22:04:41 | <tomsmeding> | (ex: npm, pip, the perl things, etc.) |
| 22:05:14 | <geekosaur> | that also, but you're also still stuck with that the global package manager isn't guaranteed to e.g. install recent enough versions of things you might want, it installs dependencies for whatever versions of end user packages they want to package |
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| 22:05:31 | <tomsmeding> | right |
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| 22:07:06 | <geekosaur> | also why ghcup (and before it stack), rustup, etc. exist |
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| 22:08:24 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: It’s better to see it like this: Your development *staging* area is not your *production* area. Don’t assume *anything* about your production area. Ideally, your staging area should be entirely its own namespace, chroot, everything. I learned that when trying to make a “OS” out of just the LInux kernel and a Haskell program as |
| 22:08:24 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | init. :) |
| 22:09:01 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | OSes should not allow other package managers that work around the OS at all. |
| 22:09:25 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | They should provide converters like hackport. |
| 22:09:29 | <geekosaur> | uh, no, that's the reverse of what a developer needs, unless your idea of a prerequisite for development is to build your own OS |
| 22:09:58 | <geekosaur> | hackport etc. aren't enough unless your OS is nixos |
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| 22:10:29 | <geekosaur> | (i.e. supports multiple versions of things concurrently installed and the OS gets to stick to what it wants without disturbing your work) |
| 22:10:37 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: No, I think we misunderstand each other. Basically I’m saying by having to actually declare all your dependencies and assumptions in your installer or whatever, you won’t fall into the pit of your program assuming things that it shouldn’t. |
| 22:11:07 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 22:11:08 | <geekosaur> | did you by any chance read what started this discussion? |
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| 22:11:17 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: A typical case is websites that assumed the background was white, and only set the font to black. Resulting in black on black text in dark mode, until that became a thing for everyone else too. |
| 22:11:52 | <mauke> | geekosaur: not just read, but also wrote! |
| 22:12:26 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Well, that’s precisely when my client lost the connection, it seems. XD |
| 22:12:44 | <mauke> | we have public logs, see /topic |
| 22:12:59 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | I thought they were replies to my pre-connection-break questions. |
| 22:13:06 | <mauke> | yes |
| 22:13:27 | <geekosaur> | okay, so did I completely misunderstand the thrust of "Windows or something else that tries to not integrate with the package manager"? your current discussion doesn't seem to mesh with its implication |
| 22:13:55 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Ah, thanks |
| 22:14:53 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: I think they mean this: 1. a program should declare all its dependencies and the system should (somehow) ensure that you get no more than you declare. 2. The system package manager is suited for this job. 3. Hence, all development tools should be a shim (ish) over the system package manager. |
| 22:15:02 | <tomsmeding> | FluoridinatedFlu: is that sort of accurate? |
| 22:15:15 | <monochrom> | That would be called "nix". |
| 22:15:26 | <tomsmeding> | (1.) sounds like you should be a nix user; (2.) _really_ sounds like you should be a nix user; (3.) is a logical consequence once you're a nix user |
| 22:15:30 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 22:16:14 | <monochrom> | But what I *really* read between the line is simply "they should do it my way". |
| 22:16:37 | <tomsmeding> | With how package managers work on linux distros that I know (disclaimer: just Ubuntu and Arch, though Fedora isn't any different apart from side notes about Silverblue), this just doesn't work on Linux |
| 22:16:50 | <tomsmeding> | (apart from nix/nixos, that is) |
| 22:16:55 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | What is it with this Nix stuff? Everything I saw about it immediately put me off. Can someone tell me what its point is in one sentence, cause I feel like I didn’t get the memo *and* everyone is hiding it from me when I search for infos on it. XD |
| 22:17:37 | <monochrom> | nix declares dependencies. |
| 22:18:01 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: Ubuntu/Debian’s apt is a sad antiquated joke though. It’s more like something from 1999. |
| 22:18:13 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | (Like RPM) |
| 22:18:22 | <tomsmeding> | someone else should do this, but: Nix gets you precisely this "you declare exactly your dependencies and those are what you get", plus that you don't need only a single version of some package X on your system, because everything can use their own version, transparently |
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| 22:18:49 | <tomsmeding> | regardless of how antique apt is, I don't see how RPM is in any way better on the points relevant to the discussion here |
| 22:19:04 | <geekosaur> | which is why I said this only works with nixos, since at present only that guarantees that the same system package manager can serve both your and the packagers' purposes simultaneously |
| 22:19:04 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: That sounds indeed nice. So is it basically a more advanced package manager? |
| 22:19:06 | <tomsmeding> | you can still just use stuff on the system without declaring that as a dependency in your package. |
| 22:19:38 | <tomsmeding> | FluoridinatedFlu: The idea -- as a non-user, disclaimer! -- is that it tries to give you a "declarative system" |
| 22:19:41 | <geekosaur> | because, as I said, the system package manager does not serve developers, it serves the packagers |
| 22:19:50 | <tomsmeding> | which subsumes a package manager |
| 22:20:24 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: As a Haskell programmer, and a supporter of the idea of the block universe, that’s of course very attractive. :) |
| 22:20:51 | <tomsmeding> | at the same time, nix is a slippery slope to nixos, and the language is untyped with no good proposals for a sensible type system (so it's actually inherently untyped). :) |
| 22:21:04 | <tomsmeding> | It kind of sounds like you should give nix a serious try |
| 22:21:31 | <tomsmeding> | if nothing else, to figure out what things are wrong with nix so you can further refine your ideals on how systems should work |
| 22:21:43 | <tomsmeding> | (I don't really know what's wrong with nix because I don't use it. :) ) |
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| 22:22:05 | <mauke> | I don't use it either, but I've heard it's fashtech-adjacent |
| 22:22:16 | <tomsmeding> | what in the world is "fashtech" |
| 22:22:27 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | So you’re saying we need something more clean… more elegant… Like pure category theory expressed as unlambda… :D |
| 22:23:19 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure we need that. It's a nice ideal, but I feel it's also an ideal that creates friction with reality in how I (and others) want to use their machines |
| 22:23:31 | <tomsmeding> | But it sounds like you want it, hence us suggesting it. :) |
| 22:23:41 | <monochrom> | We don't need more fragmentation or "one more standard". |
| 22:23:53 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | (It was a joke. Like Toki Pona or a programming languages that consists purely of brackets ;) |
| 22:24:20 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: fascism + technology. see also https://mas.to/@zzt/115272477801664683 |
| 22:24:58 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | monochrom: Well, that’s easy: Just instead of NewStandard 1.0, call it ThatOldStandard 2.0! :D Look at my boy USB! :D |
| 22:25:34 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | mauke: XD |
| 22:25:37 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: what is @zzt referring to there? It seems like a random list of "bad stuff", but then "terrible Fisher-Price CSS" sounds like it's targeting something specific |
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| 22:25:52 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: Bad ideologies, in general, I would say. |
| 22:26:06 | <monochrom> | Does nix have CSS? |
| 22:26:07 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Or fashionable ones |
| 22:26:17 | <tomsmeding> | the nix website probably has css |
| 22:26:25 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: might be tailwind. the x11 stuff is almost definitely xlibre |
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| 22:26:40 | <geekosaur> | I might also drop in guix as a somewhat more principled nix-like |
| 22:26:46 | <mauke> | the web browser is ladybird. the "distributed functional programming" is urbit |
| 22:26:47 | <Clint> | what's the wayland part |
| 22:26:52 | <mauke> | I don't know that one |
| 22:26:54 | <tomsmeding> | because if this is just a random list of bad stuff, I'm still not sure what "fashtech" is supposed to mean :p |
| 22:26:55 | <geekosaur> | but I don't think they've built an OS around hurd+guix as yet |
| 22:27:00 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | I’m gonna develop a ASN.1 impllementation of Nix syntax; gouge your eyes out, because I am Nyarlathotep! XD |
| 22:27:24 | <monochrom> | "corporations protecting you from yourself" sounds more like capitalism than fascism. |
| 22:27:41 | <geekosaur> | and btb I originally read "fashtech" as a portmanteau of "fashion" and "tech", but then I think a lot of modern (especially web) tech has been there for years |
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| 22:28:14 | <tomsmeding> | honestly, most of the things that mauke mentions fit more with "fashion tech" than "fascism tech" |
| 22:28:19 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: they're projects lead, financed, or controlled by people who are anti-woke, anti-diversity, and/or plain racist |
| 22:28:25 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 22:28:55 | <ElementalFluorin> | monochrom: Uuum, in practice, capitalism’s goal of profit maximization by definition leads to totalitarian fascism though. But I think we’re getting too political in here now, for my taste. |
| 22:29:01 | <mauke> | the "corporate control over packages" thing might be nix |
| 22:29:04 | <Rembane> | I think I would prefer a world where more was fashion tech and less was fascism tech |
| 22:29:14 | <ElementalFluorin> | tomsmeding: I tnink that was the joke. :) |
| 22:29:20 | <tomsmeding> | I see :p |
| 22:29:29 | <yushyin> | FluoridinatedFlu: be prepared for the fact that building haskell projects on nix/nixos can be a challenge, especially if you want to link against shared libs. When I tried that a while ago, I regularly ran into linker errors. I apparently exceeded the argv max length or something |
| 22:29:33 | <ElementalFluorin> | mauke: Wouldn’t that be IBM/RedHat? |
| 22:29:59 | <mauke> | ah, here's a version with an "answer key": https://lemmy.ca/post/52764317/19307072 |
| 22:30:42 | <ElementalFluorin> | yushyin: Wait, so it’s this all new idea that will make dependencies super-easy, and you’re telling me it will make dependencies *harder* for me? Okay, I don’t think I wanna try NixOS. ^^ |
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| 22:31:39 | <ElementalFluorin> | I think that list definitely misses the inner-platform effect though. :) |
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| 22:32:03 | <ElementalFluorin> | And a mention of the Digital Donkey from thedailywtf.com. :D |
| 22:34:08 | <ElementalFluorin> | (Basically a company tried to develop a MS Office killer… IN MS Office’s VBA! … Played Magic the Gathering for half a year… Cobbled together a GUI in a few days… Got a 40 million grant… pissed that away too… and somehow ended up offering its “MS Office killer” on laptops with satellite dishes on the back of donkeys in remote |
| 22:34:08 | <ElementalFluorin> | mountain regions. … Ahh, the first dotcom bubble was a different time. XD) |
| 22:35:17 | <ElementalFluorin> | (But hey, Startpage.com tries to be a privacy-enabled Google killer, by internally using Google, and having marketing guys leading their business. ;) |
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