Logs on 2026-02-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:04:58 | <lantti> | oh, QuickCheck function "oneof" is actually "oneof" instead of "oneOf"... This strangely annoys me more than it should |
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| 01:17:10 | <humasect> | agree |
| 01:19:11 | <Lears> | It's `sizeofFoo` that gets me every time. |
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| 01:20:53 | <humasect> | oreof |
| 01:21:05 | <humasect> | sizEofBar |
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| 06:09:00 | <jreicher> | ski: I've been pondering the Cook paper you posted a few days ago. It's interesting. Does it represent the "latest" on the topic? I saw another paper by Cook on a similar topic with a slightly different presentation. |
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| 06:39:27 | <ski> | it's a relatively old paper. but some of the ideas (like different uses of existentials, for object-orientation vs. abstract data types) are also in e.g. TaPL |
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| 06:39:54 | <ski> | ooc, what was the other paper ? |
| 06:40:24 | <ski> | @where TaPL |
| 06:40:24 | <lambdabot> | "Types and Programming Languages" by Benjamin C. Pierce in 2002-02-01 at <https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/tapl/> |
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| 07:10:20 | <jreicher> | https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/papers/OOPvsADT/CookOOPvsADT90.pdf |
| 07:10:48 | <jreicher> | I think he might have hit upon the idea of using lambda calculus expressions for object-as-closures after this. |
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| 10:12:52 | <Guest83> | Hello |
| 10:14:37 | <ski> | hullo |
| 10:15:02 | <Guest83> | New to Haskell |
| 10:15:19 | <Guest83> | Tried Ocaml but found it difficult |
| 10:15:20 | <fgarcia> | putStrLn "hi!" |
| 10:15:43 | <ski> | % putStrLn "hi!" |
| 10:15:43 | <yahb2> | hi! |
| 10:15:54 | <Guest83> | Awesome way of saying Hi |
| 10:16:04 | <ski> | do you have access to some introductory learning material ? |
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| 10:16:35 | <Guest83> | I am on the getting started page of Haskell |
| 10:17:04 | <ski> | do you know any other programming language ? |
| 10:17:10 | <Guest83> | Yes Python |
| 10:17:35 | <ski> | if you're new to functional programming, it will be a bit like learning to program from scratch all over again |
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| 10:17:59 | <Guest83> | Read about good things of functional programming so thought of giving it a try |
| 10:18:21 | <ski> | the book "Haskell : The Craft of Functional Programming" by Simon Thompson is a nice intro |
| 10:18:23 | <Guest83> | I don't mind learning from scratch |
| 10:18:27 | <ski> | there's other nice books, as well |
| 10:18:39 | <Guest83> | Great Ski. Thanks for the guidance |
| 10:20:02 | <ski> | you could try "Learn You a Haskell for Great Good!" <https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/>, if you want. it covers basics |
| 10:20:09 | <ski> | doesn't have exercises, though |
| 10:20:15 | <ski> | @where CIS194 |
| 10:20:15 | <lambdabot> | <https://github.com/byorgey/haskell-course>,<https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html> |
| 10:20:23 | <ski> | is a course, which has exercises you can try |
| 10:20:52 | <ski> | oh, and you can ask here, if you have questions about particular things |
| 10:21:17 | <ski> | (do note that it may at times take a little while for people to notice your question, so i'd recommend waiting at least half an hour) |
| 10:22:14 | <Guest83> | Sure, Ski. Much appreciated. Do you all use the same nicknames? |
| 10:22:46 | <ski> | most people tend to stick to one (or sometimes a few) nicknames |
| 10:23:06 | <ski> | well, at least people who stick around, keep chatting, here |
| 10:23:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 10:23:24 | <ski> | if you type in |
| 10:23:33 | <ski> | /nick myNewNickname |
| 10:23:39 | <ski> | it should change your nickname |
| 10:24:29 | <srazkvt> | i have a few usernames i switch between, either this username, or a variant of it, or just my first name for more casual chats with friends |
| 10:24:48 | <srazkvt> | but i don't go much outside of those |
| 10:24:59 | <Guest83> | Thank you, Ski. I am liking the functional programming approach. I hope I stick around with Haskell for long because i easily get demotivated if I hit a roadblock in my learning. |
| 10:25:42 | <ski> | asking people for help can be quite useful, when you'tr stumbling over something |
| 10:26:24 | <Guest83> | I found this resource. Looks like a good start https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis1940/spring13/lectures/01-intro.html |
| 10:26:43 | <ski> | yea, that's the first lecture of the CIS194 course |
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| 10:26:51 | <srazkvt> | yea, from my experience haskell people are generally nice when it comes to helping out newcomers |
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| 10:27:07 | <ski> | (well, maybe a variant of it ? .. "1940" ?) |
| 10:27:42 | <Guest83> | Thank you for making me feel so welcome here. I am curious to start my journey. |
| 10:28:16 | <ski> | you're welcome |
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| 10:35:11 | <tomsmeding> | probie: the playground now has experimental support for {-# OPTIONS -fllvm #-} |
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| 10:39:07 | <Guest83> | Guys thank you for your help. I will come back with m learnings shortly |
| 10:40:30 | <tomsmeding> | I guess also int-e ^ :p |
| 10:40:46 | <tomsmeding> | bug reports welcome |
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| 10:41:26 | <tomsmeding> | it has only llvm 15 for now, which means it ought to work for GHC >= 9.6 |
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| 17:11:15 | <monochrom> | I hit roadblocks in my learning too. But they tend to disappear after 5 years, and I would be like "this is obvious, why didn't I understand it 5 years ago?!" :) |
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| 19:11:07 | <jreicher> | ski: I have a problem with this Cook paper. The model of OO presented here, being based on closures and expressible in lambda calculus, is something that can be done Haskell, but I don't think that's how many people use the term "OO" or think of Haskell. I agree completely with the main point ADTs vs objects, but I suspect it should be explained using a word other than "object", because (IMO) an essential part of OO programming (in |
| 19:11:08 | <jreicher> | mainstream languages) is the ability to break referential transparency by having direct control over mutable state. |
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| 19:33:28 | <EvanR> | jreicher, this is arguably the main issue with OOP as a subject, that people can't agree on what it entails. So in the end it's just easier to discuss the subject matter itself |
| 19:34:12 | <EvanR> | attempt to define the terminology jargon "once and for all" is boiling an ocean |
| 19:34:35 | <EvanR> | I don't envy someone with a dog in that race xD |
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| 19:59:55 | <EvanR> | wow... you can't use the field name "class" ? |
| 20:00:18 | <int-e> | it is a keyword |
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| 20:00:58 | <EvanR> | and jreicher is trying to claim we're not OOP xD |
| 20:01:23 | <int-e> | trait carefully, or something |
| 20:01:58 | <EvanR> | *attempts to get around it with NoFieldSelectors |
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| 20:03:23 | <EvanR> | doesn't work, though it would see that would avoid syntactic collisions |
| 20:05:35 | <geekosaur> | I think there's an unimplemented-as-yet proposal for keywords and such to be usable as fields disambiguated by the overloaded dot |
| 20:06:16 | <int-e> | > let clаss = 42 in clаss |
| 20:06:17 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 20:06:28 | <int-e> | (you can always play dirty) |
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| 20:23:44 | <monochrom> | Coding OO in Haskell becomes annoying once you start subclassing. (Too much boilerplate.) |
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| 20:25:45 | <larsivi> | Still learning Haskell here, trying some stuff where I want to return a couple of operations in Left and something else in Right, so like this: Left ((+1):(+0)) However, it fails since +1 and +0 are not the same type. Is there some way yo make this into a more generic type? (in addition to addition, I also have subtractions) |
| 20:26:53 | <[exa]> | larsivi: use Left [(+1),(+0)]? the issue is likely the type of (:), it requires a list on the right |
| 20:27:11 | <[exa]> | or Left ((+1),(+0)) if you're sure there's always an exact couple |
| 20:27:37 | <[exa]> | :t ((+1),(+0)) |
| 20:27:37 | <lambdabot> | (Num a1, Num a2) => (a1 -> a1, a2 -> a2) |
| 20:27:42 | <[exa]> | :t [(+1),(+0)] |
| 20:27:43 | <lambdabot> | Num a => [a -> a] |
| 20:29:28 | <[exa]> | (btw you could do something like (+1):[(+0)] to make it work with : , but that doesn't quite look like what you'd want to do) |
| 20:30:31 | <larsivi> | exa: In the next step I want to pattern match op1:op2, how does that work with a pair? |
| 20:30:58 | <[exa]> | (op1,op2) |
| 20:31:06 | <monochrom> | If you have a pair, the pattern is (p,q). If you have a list of length 2, the pattern is [p,q]. |
| 20:31:23 | <larsivi> | nice, thanks |
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| 20:51:26 | <larsivi> | Ok, still not fully in place, I now get (only for negative ops): error: [GHC-39999] |
| 20:51:28 | <larsivi> | • No instance for ‘Num (Int -> Int)’ |
| 20:51:30 | <larsivi> | arising from a use of syntactic negation |
| 20:51:32 | <larsivi> | (maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?) |
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| 20:56:47 | <larsivi> | Ah, the unary negation operator - fixed it with wrapping (-) |
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| 21:05:35 | <monochrom> | There is also subtract, i.e., subtract 5 = \x -> x - 5 |
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| 21:10:28 | <larsivi> | Yeah, I saw, but this was shorter :) |
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| 21:44:06 | <larsivi> | But it turned out that (-)1 didn't actually do anything, so had to use subtract 1 instead. Something I did wrong there? |
| 21:45:31 | <int-e> | > (-) 1 4 |
| 21:45:32 | <lambdabot> | -3 |
| 21:45:36 | <monochrom> | (-) 5 = \y -> (-) 5 y = \y -> 5 - y. sutract 5 = \y -> y - 5 |
| 21:45:37 | <int-e> | > flip (-) 1 4 |
| 21:45:38 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 21:45:46 | <int-e> | > (-1+) 4 |
| 21:45:47 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 21:46:02 | <int-e> | (scnr) |
| 21:46:47 | <mauke> | > pred 4 |
| 21:46:48 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 21:46:50 | <int-e> | anyway, (-) 1 does *something*. |
| 21:46:54 | <dcb> | I don't think you can make (-) into a section (without `flip`, or as mentioned, `subtract`) |
| 21:47:36 | <mauke> | > - - 1 |
| 21:47:37 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:3: error: parse error on input `-' |
| 21:47:58 | <mauke> | > 1--1 |
| 21:47:59 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 21:48:07 | <monochrom> | heh |
| 21:48:26 | <monochrom> | > - negate 1 |
| 21:48:27 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 21:48:54 | <monochrom> | Haskell is so negative! So many ways to say subtraction. >:) |
| 21:51:40 | <mauke> | > id 0 --user |
| 21:51:41 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 21:51:53 | <larsivi> | I returned stuff like [(+1), ((-)1)] that type checked against [Int -> Int]. I was able to [op1,op2] ==> foo (op1 x) (op2 y), but the value was not changed with the subtraction unless I rewrote it to (subtract 1). |
| 21:52:41 | <mauke> | that's equivalent to [(1+), (1-)] |
| 21:53:11 | <larsivi> | ah, so it is the order that is wrong? |
| 21:54:00 | <monochrom> | If x=1/2, then 1-x = x, so (1-) looks like doing nothing. |
| 21:54:17 | <mauke> | > sequence [(1+), (1-)] 42 |
| 21:54:18 | <lambdabot> | [43,-41] |
| 21:54:33 | <mauke> | > sequence [(+1), ((-) 1)] 42 |
| 21:54:34 | <lambdabot> | [43,-41] |
| 21:54:59 | <larsivi> | yeah, that turns out to negate the result |
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| 21:55:33 | <int-e> | a - b = -(b - a) is elementary |
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| 21:56:18 | <mauke> | (-) x = (\y -> x - y) |
| 22:02:08 | <larsivi> | ok, so slowly starting to understand this :) At least I have something that works. Thanks again! |
| 22:03:10 | <monochrom> | @pl \y -> negate (1 - y) |
| 22:03:10 | <lambdabot> | negate . (-) 1 |
| 22:03:13 | <monochrom> | >:) |
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| 22:44:29 | polykernel_ | is now known as polykernel |
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| 23:59:04 | × | troydm quits (~troydm@user/troydm) (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-02-15.