Logs on 2026-02-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:51:50 | <edwardk> | __monty__, evanr: the 'it was already owned by them for a while' thing is being rather credulous, because it hinges on an argument that basically says 'hey i helped you guys run one event one time, so now i own you' and a rather clandestine ownership transfer that was hidden from all the mods. then when all the mods quit over his moves, THEN boom one week later libera. |
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| 01:10:18 | <sm> | Glory to Libera! HAIL! |
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| 01:33:52 | <edwardk> | so what interesting stuff is going on in the haskell world in the last year or two? I've been a bit distracted |
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| 01:55:43 | <sm> | howdy edwardk. There's a nice IDE-friendly haskell debugger coming together. Compiling to WASM is becoming a normal thing. (Pandoc runs in the browser now.) The first AmeriHAC just happened (maybe you were there ?) |
| 01:56:58 | <jreicher> | sm: do you have a reference for the debugger? I've always wondered about a debugger for a runtime like this (not specifically Haskell) |
| 01:57:05 | <sm> | and the github vs gitlab vs X debate for ghc dev has been simmering again |
| 01:57:42 | <sm> | https://github.com/well-typed/haskell-debugger |
| 01:58:07 | <sm> | also, AI has become really good at writing, debugging, and cleaning up haskell code |
| 02:00:32 | <jreicher> | Oh it implements DAP. Interesting. |
| 02:01:11 | <jreicher> | I'll have to watch one of the videos. Stepping is such an imperative thing I'd like to see how it looks in this context. Thanks. |
| 02:02:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you can see it in a more low level form in the debugger that's built in to ghci. Lots of confusing jumping around as things are evaluated! But it makes sense for the most part. haskell-debugger hopefully will make things clearer |
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| 02:05:46 | <jreicher> | Woah. You sound so far away all of a sudden. |
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| 02:10:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> hehe I'm o v e r h e r e o / |
| 02:10:46 | <fgarcia> | i found out ghc can run in the browser. huge download though |
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| 02:52:15 | <edwardk> | sm: i missed amerihac. i was hoping to go, then had to deal with an electrician installing a circuit at the house for an aquarium at the last minute. |
| 02:53:17 | <Clint> | surprise aquarium |
| 02:53:23 | <edwardk> | i did get a chance to talk to rodrigo about the haskell-debugger project at popl. neat stuff! we've been seriously lacking in that regards. |
| 02:53:34 | <edwardk> | Clint: mor like surprise availability of the electrician ;) |
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| 02:55:09 | <edwardk> | turns out reef tanks take a _lot_ of electricity, and i hadn't quite adequately accounted for that fact when picking where to place a couple of tons of seawater. |
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| 03:18:27 | <edwardk> | jreicher: back int he day there was a phd thesis on 'optimistic evaluation' for haskell, which turned each thunk creation point into a dynamic check for whether it should optimistically evaluate the thunk now rather than hold the context, then did some delicate dance to assign blame during gc for when it evaluated stuff that didn't get used later, eventually shutting off speculation at those let bindings. the thing i remember most |
| 03:18:27 | <edwardk> | clearly about it is that it made the evaluation of haskell follow the visible control flow of the code much more clearly, like a strict language, but every once in a while while creating a thunk it'd behave kind of like the current 'thread' got pre-empted and your focus got pulled away elsewhere. i alway thought a debugger that followed that scheme would be amazing for haskell. |
| 03:19:12 | <edwardk> | it would just look like a multi-threaded runtime that single stepped before jumping off to do another thread here and there as you stepped. |
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| 04:31:54 | <chromoblob> | TIL Haskell has a debugger... |
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| 04:32:18 | <jreicher> | edwardk: Oh that is fun. I've often thought about experimenting with something like that. |
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| 04:33:32 | <jreicher> | I'm almost inclined to say that for stepping purposes it might be worth giving the user to evaluate everything strictly with control over when/where the evaluation is "skipped" (obviously not needed expressions) |
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| 04:47:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> reef tank.. tons of seawater, you say... |
| 04:50:01 | <edwardk> | haskellbridge/sm: water is heavy. it doesn't take much volume before you hit the ton marker! |
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| 04:50:32 | <edwardk> | er.. happy to move that to #haskell-offtopic if folks get annoyed at me talking about fish |
| 04:50:55 | <humasect> | i want to hear about the fish |
| 04:51:28 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes, tell about the fish ? |
| 04:51:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> nothing else happening here :) |
| 04:51:47 | <edwardk> | okay. will move the moment someone complains. =) |
| 04:51:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> we'll tie it back to haskell |
| 04:52:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> there shall be a haskell-based embedded reef tank ecology controller |
| 04:52:49 | <edwardk> | i wound up having to set up a 300 gallon tank in my livingroom for a bunch of baby koi that were born in the backyard way out of season. then we adopted a stingray, because i really only needed 150 gallons to hold all the koi and he was sad. he was a good houseguest of the koi for 6 months. then he discovered they were tasty |
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| 04:53:10 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yikes |
| 04:53:47 | <edwardk> | so now the stingray has his own 450 gallon tank elsewhere in the house. and the koi have since grown up and moved outside and the 300 gallon is now a community tank full of various noodly looking fish (ropefish, dojo loaches, etc) |
| 04:55:13 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> awesome |
| 04:56:04 | <edwardk> | but we're in the process of setting up a 200 gallon reef tank (FOWLR, fish-only-with-live-rock) to house a porcupine pufferfish and a zebra moray eel (and some misc fish). mostly a non-coral saltwater tank, though, some cyphastrea corals becaue they encrust and are harder for a puffer to just sample with his teeth, because his teeth are how he explores the world |
| 04:56:50 | <edwardk> | and a 50 gallon reef tank that will actually have a bunch of corals in it, which is being set up to house a pair of green mandarin dragonets and some more standard saltwater fish and cleanup crew. |
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| 04:58:37 | <edwardk> | the fowlr tank is proving to be quite the engineering challenge, just because it turns out keeping 6 55 gallon drums worth of saltwater up and running and in tune is a lot of work (display + sump = a lot of water), and the 50 gallon is its own challenge because dragonets only eat a narrow diet and s it basically is an underwater bug farm with a couple of flashy fish on top of the ecsystem. |
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| 04:59:26 | <edwardk> | for the 200 gallon there _is_ an electronic control subsystem. =) |
| 05:01:38 | <edwardk> | i have probes for basically everything. Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium matter for the cyphastrea. nitrate/phosphate mix as well. then we have the problem that a puffer and zebra moray eel both crunch the usual cleanup crew of a saltwater aquarium. which is why i can't run most corals. most of the things that would keep them healthy will get eaten. so i have to do nutrient export via a gigantic protein skimmer with injected ozone, but |
| 05:01:38 | <edwardk> | THEN i have to scrub that away before it reaches the air around the display tank |
| 05:02:57 | <edwardk> | so dosing pumps for kalkwasser for the calcium+alkalinity, automatic top off, testing equipment and probes. |
| 05:03:09 | <edwardk> | i'm sure to anyone who has been doing this as a hobby for a long time this is nothing |
| 05:03:37 | <edwardk> | but compared to the "huge to me" 450 gallon stingray tank this is insane. |
| 05:03:55 | <edwardk> | and i'm kind of glad i didn't pull the trigger on my previous 1100 gallon plan! |
| 05:04:35 | <edwardk> | trying to convince my wife we can keep epaulette sharks. she's not amused. |
| 05:06:14 | <edwardk> | i do have a bit of haskell in the mi |
| 05:06:17 | <edwardk> | *mix |
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| 05:06:49 | <edwardk> | for reading the co2 sensor in the room and updating the dashboard |
| 05:06:57 | <edwardk> | but it feels a bit underwhelming in comparison ;) |
| 05:07:57 | <edwardk> | the big freshwater tank has an autmatic water change system and just sort of takes care of itself. the big reef tank, will not be so hands off. |
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| 05:09:34 | <edwardk> | anyways this started by accident, and now has taken over my home. i need to learn moderation. |
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| 05:17:19 | <edwardk> | In other news, we're using a lot more haskell these days at Positron! |
| 05:17:56 | <edwardk> | So I feel a lot less guilty now about hiring Haskell folks and then throwing them at C++ and SystemVerilog. |
| 05:18:09 | <humasect> | what is Positron ? |
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| 05:18:28 | <edwardk> | https://www.positron.ai/ |
| 05:18:50 | <edwardk> | We make chips that make AI run fast, focused in heavily on AI inference rather than training. |
| 05:18:52 | <humasect> | interesting. good choice haskell |
| 05:20:06 | <edwardk> | We used a fair bit of Haskell when were first got off the ground ~2.5 years ago. Then it faded away as we moved from prototyping into production. Now it is back in earnest. |
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| 05:21:54 | <humasect> | great to hear =) had full reign of haskell projects in about 2012 great time |
| 05:22:01 | <edwardk> | https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-02-04/ai-chip-startup-positron-raises-230-million-from-arm-qatar-to-compete-with-nvidia is the most recent news about us |
| 05:22:43 | <humasect> | hmm site is blocked (wont scroll, needs sign up pay ) |
| 05:22:47 | <edwardk> | more relevant in the haskell space was luring bgamari and johnw in. |
| 05:23:09 | <edwardk> | https://techcrunch.com/2026/02/04/exclusive-positron-raises-230m-series-b-to-take-on-nvidias-ai-chips/ is substantially similar and should be free access |
| 05:23:10 | <chromoblob> | hmm, retro visual design |
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| 05:23:40 | <edwardk> | chromoblob: wanted to lean into the art deco 1930s style isaac asimov novel cover aesthetic |
| 05:24:10 | humasect | got into retrofuturism =) |
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| 07:30:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> haskell in the mix! there it is!! |
| 07:31:08 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> edwardk: "holy mackerel!" |
| 07:31:09 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that's a lot |
| 07:31:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> must be very pretty |
| 07:31:29 | <gentauro> | edwardk: it seems like Stephen Diehl also joined the AI-hype (but with LEAN) https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7429162959521738752-8ynh/ I used to recall him as a very "anti" crypto, but now he is "finance+AI" |
| 07:31:39 | gentauro | I guess something has to pay for the rent |
| 07:33:30 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ha |
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| 07:33:57 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I wish he would revive his "what I wish I knew" doc, it was awesome even though old |
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| 07:41:17 | <gentauro> | sm: he also removed his `nanoparsec` |
| 07:41:28 | <gentauro> | it was also quite a nice read :) |
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| 08:13:45 | <jackdk> | http://web.archive.org/web/20220416135359/http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/ |
| 08:13:58 | <sshine_> | https://web.archive.org/web/20220122230219/http://dev.stephendiehl.com/fun/002_parsers.html |
| 08:14:04 | <sshine_> | whoops, too late |
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| 09:27:46 | <chromoblob> | it occured to me now that we should allow function definitions with no equations, which when called simply return "non-exhaustive patterns" error |
| 09:28:08 | <chromoblob> | when extension... |
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| 09:30:58 | <int-e> | The compiler error that a declaration has no corresponding definition is practically useful though. And note that the declaration doesn't have to be next to the definition, so depending on coding style this won't be immediately obvious. |
| 09:31:37 | <int-e> | So, sure, we *could* do that, and there's a related thing in EmptyCase, but I strongly disagree that we should. |
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| 09:40:39 | <gentauro> | jackdk: and sshine -> https://github.com/sdiehl/wiwinwlh/tree/master and https://sdiehl.github.io/wiwinwlh/ ;) |
| 09:46:47 | <chromoblob> | well, i was joking |
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| 10:05:54 | <gentauro> | what are the name of the bots here in this channel? Is there a command to invoke a list of them :) |
| 10:07:34 | <[exa]> | as you command! lambdabot, yahb |
| 10:08:59 | <[exa]> | ( oh I mean yahb2 ) |
| 10:09:04 | <merijn> | I think it's pretty much just lambdabot and yahb, yeah |
| 10:09:44 | <[exa]> | looks like they are the only voiced nicks here, together with dr haskellbridge |
| 10:11:54 | <gentauro> | % :t 42 |
| 10:11:54 | <yahb2> | 42 :: Num a => a |
| 10:12:00 | <gentauro> | > :t 42 |
| 10:12:01 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input `:' |
| 10:12:19 | <gentauro> | > [1] |
| 10:12:20 | <lambdabot> | [1] |
| 10:12:44 | <gentauro> | so lambdabot is not wrapping `ghci` right? |
| 10:13:13 | <[exa]> | :t 42 |
| 10:13:14 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a |
| 10:13:19 | <[exa]> | depends on how you look at it |
| 10:13:23 | <gentauro> | https://wiki.haskell.org/IRC_channel#Bots |
| 10:13:42 | <gentauro> | «… there is a bot called yahb which runs your request in an actual GHCi prompt» |
| 10:14:01 | <merijn> | gentauro: lambdabot is using the mueval library |
| 10:14:18 | <merijn> | Whereas yahb is a sandboxed ghci session |
| 10:14:41 | <gentauro> | merijn: and Safe-Haskell -> https://old.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/kbayi9/is_safe_haskell_still_being_developed/gffxtai/ |
| 10:14:47 | <gentauro> | which makes sense |
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| 10:18:08 | <tomsmeding> | yahb2 is an independent rewrite of yahb that has roughly the same functionality (as far as I know), because the original disappeared in... IIRC the freenode->libera switch? |
| 10:18:10 | <gentauro> | has lambdabot been running since 2005 :o https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Lambdabot#@version |
| 10:18:43 | gentauro | `#haskell lambdabot ghc-6.2.2 (Mar 30 20:48:23 EST 2005)` :o |
| 10:19:04 | <tomsmeding> | cool |
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| 10:20:45 | <int-e> | https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/dcf37df705533dd694c471cdb5cff2965b44611f "import latest lambdabot", October 29th 2004. I don't know whether it was in #haskell at the time. |
| 10:21:29 | <int-e> | But it probably was, judging by how many people had already contributed. |
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| 10:22:01 | <gentauro> | int-e: I guess you could argue it's "mature" and "enterprise ready" :D |
| 10:22:20 | <int-e> | ...sure, let's go with that |
| 10:22:43 | <tomsmeding> | from the TODO file: "unit tests, quickcheck tests, written tests... ok, maybe not written" |
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| 10:23:50 | <gentauro> | int-e: I'm going to link to it cos a really big company is requesting AI-security xD |
| 10:24:23 | <gentauro> | I mean, interacting securily with code over chat … |
| 10:24:38 | gentauro | probably gonna be blocked on LinkedIn, but worth it (Y) |
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| 10:27:13 | <gentauro> | hmmmm, the usage of `Safe Haskell` has to be a later refactoring -> «[Safe Haskell]: (David Terei, David Mazières, Simon Marlow, Simon Peyton Jones) Haskell ’12: Proceedings of the Fifth ACM SIGPLAN Symposium on Haskell, Copenhagen, Denmark, ACM, 2012» |
| 10:27:32 | <int-e> | gentauro: I'll assume you're not aware that I'm running the thing (and haven't really given it much love beyond that in the past years) :P |
| 10:28:33 | <gentauro> | int-e: «The bot is operated by IRC user int-e and provides many useful services for visitors to the IRC channel» -> https://wiki.haskell.org/IRC_channel#lambdabot (point taken) |
| 10:28:40 | <gentauro> | and thx for mainting it xD |
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| 10:29:42 | <gentauro> | isn't there a quote that "all programing languages will converge to Haskell"? If yes, who said it first? :) |
| 10:29:52 | gentauro | or was it SML? |
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| 10:32:51 | <gentauro> | int-e: seriously, if you wanna make "big bucks" just expand this feature list with "interact with AI-LLM" xD |
| 10:33:30 | <int-e> | gentauro: I'd rather eat glass. |
| 10:33:43 | <gentauro> | if they paid 1bn USD for the OpenClaw "thingy" your bot might be worth 1trillion xD https://www.cnbc.com/2026/02/18/anthropic-pentagon-ai-defense-war-surveillance.html |
| 10:33:51 | <int-e> | (Apparently that's the cool retort these days.) |
| 10:33:52 | <gentauro> | int-e: I'm with you on that one |
| 10:34:05 | <gentauro> | but, make a trillion dollars and pay us all to work with Haskell non-stop |
| 10:34:10 | <int-e> | gentauro: I feel that it was Lisp... and specifically, a *worse* implementation of Lisp. |
| 10:34:12 | <gentauro> | become our Lord and Saviour :P |
| 10:34:18 | <int-e> | gentauro: But I can't find the code. |
| 10:34:22 | <int-e> | quote even |
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| 10:35:10 | gentauro | forgot to provide "feature list" https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Lambdabot#Features (more features than most TUI agents out there …) |
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| 10:35:44 | <__monty__> | It's Greenspun's tenth rule, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule |
| 10:35:52 | <int-e> | @v |
| 10:35:52 | <lambdabot> | "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" |
| 10:36:43 | <int-e> | @brain |
| 10:36:44 | <lambdabot> | What can I do for fun, Pinky? That's it! I'll send several |
| 10:36:44 | <lambdabot> | bills to Senate for ratification, then veto them all! |
| 10:37:11 | <int-e> | I forgot most of these spammy commands. |
| 10:37:15 | <gentauro> | xD |
| 10:37:47 | <gentauro> | int-e: as the MS peeps say: "It's a feature". You just need to brand it as: "Yeah, as all your AI stuff, lambdabot also hallucinates" |
| 10:38:13 | <gentauro> | int-e: I have just showed you the way to infinite money :P |
| 10:39:08 | <int-e> | I've played video games, I know about infinite money glitches. |
| 10:39:25 | <int-e> | But most of those don't have an economy to sustain. |
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| 10:42:56 | <gentauro> | int-e: I've never been a fan of all the crypto stuff, but, thanks to Cardano the money was sent to: Tweag.io, Well-Typed, FP Complete, … and a lot of cool Haskell stuff was made on their behalf ;) |
| 10:43:11 | <gentauro> | so, if we can "milk" the AI-cow to our benefits, well, so be it :) |
| 10:44:03 | <int-e> | #haskell-offtopic exists btw ;) |
| 10:45:22 | <gentauro> | int-e: roger that ;) |
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| 14:42:27 | <juri_> | gentauro: I'm building an LLM engine in haskell, but it's a slow project. :) |
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| 15:07:01 | <n0w0n> | huh |
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| 17:31:30 | <edwardk> | juri_: I basically prototyped positron.ai that way, modeling the behavior of the FPGAs we use. |
| 17:35:58 | <__monty__> | To be able to prototype programs for the FPGAs in Haskell? |
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| 17:41:20 | <juri_> | edwardk: i'm still working on getting my FPGAs supported by clash. |
| 17:42:04 | <juri_> | I think this is the second time I have run into you, and found out you're doing what i'm up to... but if i remember right, in the central north of the states? :) |
| 17:44:22 | <edwardk> | indeed |
| 17:44:39 | × | Pixi quits (~Pixi@user/pixi) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 17:44:55 | <edwardk> | __monty__: was modeling the behavior of the fpgas using haskell to make sure the design would work |
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| 17:47:03 | <__monty__> | The behavior as programmed, rather than the actual programmable gates? |
| 17:47:56 | <tomsmeding> | the design of the program that is to use the fpga, I presume |
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| 17:53:37 | <gentauro> | edwardk: do you know https://myrtle.ai/about/ ? I recall them from ICFP back in the days (no .ai domain though) |
| 17:53:46 | <gentauro> | they had some pretty "competent" Haskellers |
| 17:55:52 | <tomsmeding> | why the scare-quotes? |
| 17:56:46 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: I use the quotes to put empasis ;) |
| 17:56:55 | <tomsmeding> | that's not how they work in english :p |
| 17:57:05 | <gentauro> | however, I can see from the website that they have removed `FPGAs` :( |
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| 17:57:37 | <gentauro> | I think it was at IFCP Berlin where they made like a physical square shooter game in both 2D and 3D |
| 17:58:53 | <geekosaur> | tomsmeding: sadly, people have been using quotes that way for several years in the US |
| 17:58:57 | <geekosaur> | it always bugs me |
| 17:59:40 | <geekosaur> | that said, the UK has been using single qotes the same way (emphasis / focus) in news emails for a couple decades now |
| 18:00:04 | <gentauro> | and how would you put emphasis then? In «inglés»? |
| 18:00:18 | <mauke> | made with "real" beef |
| 18:00:24 | <tomsmeding> | like this, or if you want to stay with ascii, like _this_ :) |
| 18:00:48 | <__monty__> | Or markdown's *emphasis asterisks*. |
| 18:00:52 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: interesting, I guess that shows that I live outside of the anglosphere |
| 18:00:53 | <gentauro> | edwardk: found it -> «We partner with all three companies whose FPGAs power accelerator cards for data centers, namely AMD, Altera and Achronix». Perhaps you should reach out? |
| 18:01:37 | <tomsmeding> | I naturally read that '"competent"' as scare quotes, i.e. "allegedly competent but I'm not sure I agree" |
| 18:01:58 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: replace "competent" with "cool cats" then ;) |
| 18:01:59 | → | fp joins (~Thunderbi@2001-14ba-6e24-3000--198.rev.dnainternet.fi) |
| 18:02:22 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
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| 18:02:53 | × | ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 18:03:05 | <edwardk> | gentauro: i know myrtle. our fpga product is already out and in the marketplace. |
| 18:03:26 | <edwardk> | __monty__: it was a behavioral model before we had a working fpga |
| 18:03:27 | <Clint> | tomsmeding: i also did and i'm a native english speaker |
| 18:04:31 | × | paddymahoney quits (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 18:06:38 | gentauro | off-topic on quotes. In Spanish, we write like this: «…» while in Danish we do it the other way around: »…« (but only for headliners) |
| 18:08:56 | × | pinkc quits (~luke@user/pinkc) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 18:16:05 | <geekosaur> | I date from when school English teachers were still hung up on English needing to emulate Latin (somewhat infamously, "to boldly go" was considered "illegal" because you couldn't split an infinitive in Latin, therefore it was "wrong" to do so in English) so I'm somewhat wired for an obsolete take on US English |
| 18:17:45 | <mauke> | you can't split an article/noun combo in Latin either, so "the quick fox" should be illegal as well |
| 18:17:54 | <mauke> | "the fox quick" is much more Latin |
| 18:19:17 | <geekosaur> | yeh, it was always a bit schizo, I think mostly due to English having started out as a trainwreck between northern Germanic and northern French dialects |
| 18:20:16 | <mauke> | ... northern French as spoken by norse vikings |
| 18:20:18 | <geekosaur> | (there's a quote somewhere about English being the result of Norman soldiers trying to get dates with Saxon barmaids) |
| 18:20:53 | <geekosaur> | (granting that Saxon is south Germanic, but not much of their linguistic influence seems to have survived) |
| 18:23:01 | <mauke> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCE4C9GvqI0 |
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| 18:50:00 | <monochrom> | Hot Take: English inherits from both Germanic and French, but French came from the Franks who were Germanic too. So English is Germanic but with a diamond dependency. >:) |
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| 19:01:07 | <gentauro> | monochrom: French is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages (aka "derivates from latin") |
| 19:01:43 | <monochrom> | sure sure |
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| 19:06:34 | <int-e> | % 1 |
| 19:06:34 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:25:1: error: [GHC-83249] ; • Can't find interface-file declaration for variable Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint ; Probable cause: bug in .hi-boot file, or inconsistent .hi file ; ... |
| 19:07:42 | <int-e> | % map (\c -> if c == 'o' then 'i' else c) "monochrom" |
| 19:07:42 | <yahb2> | "minichrim" |
| 19:10:38 | <int-e> | (don't mind the error, I did something evil) |
| 19:10:59 | <monochrom> | That would have to be very evil. :) |
| 19:11:02 | <gentauro> | int-e: 👀 |
| 19:11:35 | <int-e> | monochrom: fortunately that's not a very likely vowel shift :) |
| 19:13:27 | <monochrom> | "minichrim" would be a good Halloween name :) |
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| 19:42:17 | <tomsmeding> | % :cd .. |
| 19:42:17 | <yahb2> | Warning: changing directory causes all loaded modules to be unloaded, ; because the search path has changed. |
| 19:42:19 | <tomsmeding> | % 1 |
| 19:42:19 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:23:1: error: [GHC-83249] ; • Can't find interface-file declaration for variable Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint ; Probable cause: bug in .hi-boot file, or inconsistent .hi file ; ... |
| 19:42:25 | <tomsmeding> | % :q |
| 19:42:25 | <yahb2> | <bye> |
| 19:42:27 | <tomsmeding> | % 1 |
| 19:42:27 | <yahb2> | 1 |
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| 19:44:41 | <monochrom> | oh hrm interesting failure mode :) |
| 19:45:08 | <tomsmeding> | there's also this one, which is harmless as-is but has the potential to be funny |
| 19:45:10 | <tomsmeding> | % :edit |
| 19:45:10 | <yahb2> | editor not set, use :set editor |
| 19:45:22 | <tomsmeding> | credits to int-e for both, they shall be set as ignored shortly |
| 19:45:31 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 19:45:50 | → | Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 19:46:12 | <tomsmeding> | just System.Process.system "ghci -e 'whatever'" if you really want :p |
| 19:46:18 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 19:46:46 | <tomsmeding> | this stuff is to make it a little harder for clueless people / trolls to mess up the bot for other |
| 19:46:48 | <tomsmeding> | s |
| 19:47:11 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 19:50:42 | <monochrom> | :set editor docker run haskell |
| 19:51:01 | <tomsmeding> | you think there's docker in the yahb sandbox? |
| 19:51:25 | <monochrom> | doesn't hurt to dream big :) |
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| 19:53:36 | <tomsmeding> | turns out that `:unset prompt` is also an equivalent to `:q` but with a 5-second delay |
| 19:57:06 | × | yahb2 quits (~yahb2@user/tomsmeding/bot/yahb2) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:57:19 | <newmind> | timeout that looks for the prompt line after running a command and kills it if doesn't see the prompt? |
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| 19:57:26 | ChanServ | sets mode +v yahb2 |
| 19:57:37 | <tomsmeding> | yep |
| 19:57:48 | <monochrom> | interesting pathway |
| 19:57:52 | <tomsmeding> | yahb can't distinguish between "command runs forever" and "prompt is gone" |
| 19:58:03 | <tomsmeding> | % :unset prompt |
| 19:58:05 | <tomsmeding> | % 2 |
| 19:58:05 | <yahb2> | 2 |
| 19:58:11 | <tomsmeding> | here we go, it's on the ignore list now |
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| 19:58:13 | <newmind> | so the new challenge is: find legitimate commands that take longer than 5 seconds and then complain why they are not working :) |
| 19:58:25 | <tomsmeding> | the answer to that is "use your own machine" :p |
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| 19:58:47 | <newmind> | but everything is cloud nowadays... we own nothing |
| 19:59:00 | <tomsmeding> | you can rent servers ;) |
| 19:59:01 | <monochrom> | Star Trek TNG's Data would be like, "believe me, 5 seconds felt like eternity" :) |
| 19:59:34 | <tomsmeding> | yeah, it's more than 10^10 cycles spent waiting! |
| 20:02:11 | <newmind> | joking aside: great that some people still provide services without charging for it... or filling it with ads |
| 20:02:14 | × | califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 20:02:15 | califax_ | is now known as califax |
| 20:03:07 | <tomsmeding> | it's not expensive to run :) |
| 20:03:54 | <tomsmeding> | (sometimes people ask for features on the haskell playground that would break that property; I don't implement those features) |
| 20:04:05 | → | target_i joins (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) |
| 20:05:04 | <tomsmeding> | also, side note, the whole reason why that Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint is a thing is so that the following is not one of those commands thta take long: |
| 20:05:06 | <tomsmeding> | % [1..] |
| 20:05:06 | <yahb2> | [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,6... |
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| 20:05:59 | × | califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:06:08 | <newmind> | is that just a character limit or does that go deeper? |
| 20:06:25 | <tomsmeding> | it's just a character limit, yes |
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| 20:06:51 | califax_ | is now known as califax |
| 20:06:56 | <tomsmeding> | it works by setting the -interactive-print option in ghci so that values are printed with a custom function rather than Prelude.print |
| 20:07:08 | <tomsmeding> | you can trivially break it by doing |
| 20:07:08 | <gentauro> | % [[1..]] |
| 20:07:08 | <yahb2> | [[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,... |
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| 20:07:13 | <tomsmeding> | % print [1..] |
| 20:07:13 | <yahb2> | [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,6... |
| 20:07:20 | <gentauro> | % [[1..]..] |
| 20:07:20 | <yahb2> | Oops, something went wrong |
| 20:07:20 | <tomsmeding> | oh? |
| 20:07:22 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 20:07:27 | <tomsmeding> | try again |
| 20:07:32 | × | newmind quits (~newmind@91-133-90-252.dyn.cablelink.at) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 20:07:43 | <tomsmeding> | % [[1..]..] |
| 20:07:43 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:5:1: error: [GHC-39999] ; • No instance for ‘Enum [Integer]’ arising from a use of ‘it’ ; • In the first argument of ‘Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint’, namely ‘it’ ; In a stmt of... |
| 20:07:51 | <gentauro> | :o |
| 20:08:15 | <tomsmeding> | the 'print [1..]' was truncated and posted, but the command continued running and no new prompt was found, but it realised that only on the next input (yours), which restarted ghci |
| 20:08:23 | → | newmind joins (~newmind@91-133-90-252.dyn.cablelink.at) |
| 20:08:29 | <tomsmeding> | there's an infelicity here in that it could detect it earlier perhaps |
| 20:08:32 | <tomsmeding> | but it works well enough |
| 20:09:07 | × | target_i quits (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 20:09:24 | → | target_i joins (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) |
| 20:10:17 | <tomsmeding> | the print function is this one https://git.tomsmeding.com/yahb2/tree/bwrap-files/workdir/Yahb2Defs.hs ; you also get this for some reason https://git.tomsmeding.com/yahb2/tree/bwrap-files/workdir/initdefs.hs |
| 20:10:52 | <newmind> | yeah, already was looking at it :D though i can just see it in code, rather than peppering you with questions |
| 20:10:56 | <tomsmeding> | % 5 * 6 :: Nat |
| 20:10:56 | <yahb2> | S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S Z))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) |
| 20:11:01 | <tomsmeding> | very useful |
| 20:11:49 | <gentauro> | SKI :o |
| 20:11:58 | <tomsmeding> | no, Peano |
| 20:12:07 | <gentauro> | oh yeah, my bad |
| 20:12:36 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: you need `RecursivelyRunLengthCompressedNaturalNumbers` as well :) |
| 20:12:48 | <tomsmeding> | (isn't that Natural) |
| 20:13:12 | <gentauro> | `data T = F [T] deriving (Eq,Show,Read)` |
| 20:13:14 | <gentauro> | :) |
| 20:13:30 | <gentauro> | let me see if I can find likn to slides |
| 20:14:21 | <newmind> | so can you :set -interactive-print to something else? |
| 20:14:35 | <newmind> | or unset it |
| 20:14:39 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 20:14:48 | <tomsmeding> | you can :set lots of things |
| 20:15:05 | <gentauro> | https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c42c/2dcd3ab811c85e3962c31fb5f12ee5965b63.pdf |
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| 20:16:26 | <EvanR> | infelicity infelicity. Wow this word is so underused now a days |
| 20:17:02 | <tomsmeding> | the GHC user's guide has a list of infelicities :) |
| 20:18:51 | <EvanR> | it conjures up problematic behaviors or lack of behaviors that have always been there |
| 20:19:18 | <EvanR> | while "enshittification" evokes a transition from "ok" to "no ok anymore" |
| 20:19:55 | <newmind> | or "inner rage" for me >.> |
| 20:20:00 | <EvanR> | vocabulary intensifies |
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| 20:29:45 | <EvanR> | tomsmeding, btw there are 30 S in case you were wondering |
| 20:29:50 | <EvanR> | I counted |
| 20:29:57 | <monochrom> | heh |
| 20:30:30 | <tomsmeding> | I... would have been distraught hadn't there be |
| 20:30:50 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: are there also 30 ) |
| 20:31:07 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 20:31:29 | × | pinkc quits (~luke@user/pinkc) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 20:31:35 | <monochrom> | should be 29 though |
| 20:31:39 | tomsmeding | . o O ( https://xkcd.com/217/ ) |
| 20:31:42 | <monochrom> | > 2 :: Nat |
| 20:31:44 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Nat’ |
| 20:31:57 | <monochrom> | % 2 :: Nat |
| 20:31:57 | <yahb2> | S (S Z) |
| 20:32:36 | <EvanR> | yeah I count 29 |
| 20:32:40 | <EvanR> | off by one error! |
| 20:32:49 | <monochrom> | > exp pi - pi |
| 20:32:51 | <lambdabot> | 19.999099979189474 |
| 20:32:59 | × | rekahsoft quits (~rekahsoft@76.67.111.168) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 20:33:11 | <tomsmeding> | % fromIntegral (round (exp pi - pi)) :: Nat |
| 20:33:11 | <yahb2> | S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S Z))))))))))))))))))) |
| 20:33:47 | <tomsmeding> | (pi is for circles right? That's why you should round it here) |
| 20:34:28 | <EvanR> | .oO( does pi fall out of hyperbolic trig at all ) |
| 20:34:40 | <monochrom> | I concur :) |
| 20:37:01 | <c_wraith> | circles are undeniably round |
| 20:37:13 | <darkling> | EvanR: Only if you throw imaginary numbers into the functions, I think. |
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| 20:38:10 | <tomsmeding> | a real number will suffice, but not a nice one |
| 20:38:31 | <darkling> | :) |
| 20:38:46 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah, clearly, sinh (arcsinh pi) = pi |
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| 20:39:11 | <c_wraith> | ah yes. pi falling out of the identity function |
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| 20:39:53 | <monochrom> | <-- tautology hacker |
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| 21:08:21 | <EvanR> | at least pi not being disturbed by the identity function |
| 21:12:36 | <tomsmeding> | > sinh (asinh pi) == pi |
| 21:12:38 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 21:12:44 | tomsmeding | . o O ( not bad ) |
| 21:13:24 | × | gmg quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 21:13:25 | <tomsmeding> | > sin pi == 0 |
| 21:13:27 | <lambdabot> | False |
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| 21:14:02 | <humasect> | sin pi - cos pi |
| 21:14:32 | <tomsmeding> | > sin pi - cos pi == 1 |
| 21:14:34 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 21:14:48 | <c_wraith> | > let basicallyEquals x y = compare (abs x) 1 == compare (abs y) 1 in sin pi `basicallyEquals` 0 |
| 21:14:49 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 21:15:08 | <humasect> | epsilon |
| 21:15:25 | <tomsmeding> | > (-3) `basicallyEquals` 2 |
| 21:15:26 | <lambdabot> | Variable not in scope: basicallyEquals :: t0 -> t1 -> t |
| 21:15:42 | <tomsmeding> | > let basicallyEquals x y = compare (abs x) 1 == compare (abs y) 1 in (-3) `basicallyEquals` 2 |
| 21:15:43 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 21:15:54 | <humasect> | ah yea |
| 21:16:47 | <c_wraith> | all big numbers, even negative ones, are basically the same. |
| 21:17:30 | <humasect> | yessir. imagine the 'floating' point =) base-10 |
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| 21:29:18 | <EvanR> | someone's guide to best ways to abuse floats xD |
| 21:30:04 | <EvanR> | numeric stability is for wimps |
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| 21:34:00 | <humasect> | eh just unbox my float arrays we good |
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| 21:46:40 | <monochrom> | Every number rounds to zero if you round enough. >:) |
| 21:47:24 | <monochrom> | https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html #7 :) |
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| 21:52:39 | <EvanR> | is that like saying every number is closer to zero than infinity |
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| 21:56:10 | <EvanR> | number 8 kind of sounds like candide |
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| 22:04:47 | <n0w0n> | > [1,2..] ++ [1,2..] == [1] ++ [2,3..] ++ [1] ++ [2,3..] |
| 22:04:55 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<timeout>> |
| 22:05:03 | <n0w0n> | damn |
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| 22:06:24 | <EvanR> | we'll it's "not false" |
| 22:07:01 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> I would argue that no matter what you put in the second [1,2..] it is equal since it never will be computed |
| 22:07:24 | <EvanR> | which version of equal is this, the rhetorically equal? |
| 22:07:44 | <n0w0n> | neither, it's not lazy enough to be consistent with LEM |
| 22:07:57 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> The equal for any finite prefix |
| 22:08:07 | <EvanR> | consistent with the double negation translation of classical logic |
| 22:08:30 | <n0w0n> | not if ya try to evaluate an infinite list first |
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| 22:09:17 | <EvanR> | it's as lazy as possible, and the answer is bottom in the official league approved semantics |
| 22:09:47 | <EvanR> | if you want another kind of equality than "result of some algorithmic test" you gotta specify |
| 22:09:47 | <n0w0n> | those are poopoo semantics that refuse to exist |
| 22:09:57 | <n0w0n> | formally |
| 22:10:04 | <EvanR> | eh? |
| 22:10:11 | <n0w0n> | aside from sanity etsts in GHC Core |
| 22:10:17 | <EvanR> | what kind of existence, rhetorical existence? |
| 22:10:33 | <EvanR> | vibes based existence |
| 22:10:36 | <n0w0n> | as in Haskell has no formal semantics |
| 22:10:44 | <EvanR> | since when |
| 22:10:45 | <n0w0n> | technically |
| 22:11:06 | <n0w0n> | since GHC 1.0? |
| 22:11:11 | <EvanR> | what did you do with our semantics? |
| 22:11:22 | <n0w0n> | They tasted nice |
| 22:11:36 | <EvanR> | *creates another one the same as before* |
| 22:12:06 | <n0w0n> | *burp* |
| 22:12:10 | <n0w0n> | yummy |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-02-19.