Logs on 2026-02-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:44:02 | Server | sets mode +Cnt |
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| 02:27:40 | polykernel_ | is now known as polykernel |
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| 03:29:16 | dysfigured | is now known as dfg |
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| 12:00:02 | <gentauro> | anybody know if `.lhs` (Literate programming, Bird style) can be executed as a script? |
| 12:00:45 | <gentauro> | it seems they don't like the `#! /usr/bin/env …` part |
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| 12:04:59 | <gentauro> | oh, my bad. I was missing a `code-block` |
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| 13:37:52 | <castan> | Hi. Is there a clean way to get this kind of composition: (c -> d) -> (a -> b -> c) -> a -> b -> d, without writing a new operator for it? |
| 13:39:05 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f g -> (f .) . g |
| 13:39:06 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c |
| 13:39:10 | <tomsmeding> | castan: ^ |
| 13:39:21 | <tomsmeding> | whether that's clean enough I'll leave to you |
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| 13:39:48 | <castan> | That's great thanks |
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| 13:40:11 | <tomsmeding> | @djinn (c -> d) -> (a -> b -> c) -> a -> b -> d |
| 13:40:11 | <lambdabot> | f a b c d = a (b c d) |
| 13:40:27 | <tomsmeding> | @pl \a b c d -> a (b c d) |
| 13:40:27 | <lambdabot> | (.) . (.) |
| 13:40:30 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
| 13:40:43 | <tomsmeding> | the downside of generic tools, they don't give you the nice middle road |
| 13:41:10 | <castan> | yeah, it's impressive nevertheless |
| 13:42:05 | <tomsmeding> | ah: |
| 13:42:07 | <tomsmeding> | @pl \x y -> f (g x y) |
| 13:42:08 | <lambdabot> | (f .) . g |
| 13:42:20 | <castan> | oh wow |
| 13:43:12 | <tomsmeding> | the @pl command is also here https://pointfree.io/ |
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| 13:57:13 | gentauro | `(.) . (.)` :o |
| 13:58:58 | <tomsmeding> | :t fmap fmap fmap |
| 13:58:59 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b) |
| 13:59:38 | <tomsmeding> | set f1 ~ (u ->) and f2 ~ (v ->) :) |
| 13:59:48 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> :t ((.) . (.)) . ((.) . (.)) |
| 13:59:56 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> fuck, do i not have the right |
| 13:59:58 | <tomsmeding> | :t ((.) . (.)) . ((.) . (.)) |
| 14:00:00 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> a3 -> a4 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> a3 -> a4 -> c |
| 14:00:16 | <tomsmeding> | magic_rb: your message has a `<magic_rb> ` prefix here |
| 14:00:39 | <tomsmeding> | :t fmap fmap fmap `fmap` fmap fmap fmap |
| 14:00:40 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3, Functor f4) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 (f3 (f4 a))) -> f1 (f2 (f3 (f4 b))) |
| 14:00:54 | <tomsmeding> | :t (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) |
| 14:00:56 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> a3 -> a4 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> a3 -> a4 -> c |
| 14:01:18 | <tomsmeding> | (fmap on (->) is (.)) |
| 14:01:30 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> wait so (.) . (.) is equal to what |
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| 14:01:36 | <tomsmeding> | fmap = (.) |
| 14:01:46 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> really? |
| 14:01:49 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> thats new |
| 14:01:51 | <tomsmeding> | :t fmap |
| 14:01:52 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 14:01:55 | <tomsmeding> | :t (.) |
| 14:01:56 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c |
| 14:02:10 | <tomsmeding> | ok names are different but set `f ~ (u ->)` |
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| 14:02:37 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> yeah i see it |
| 14:03:18 | <tomsmeding> | this makes sense: |
| 14:03:20 | <tomsmeding> | :t fmap . fmap |
| 14:03:21 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b) |
| 14:03:25 | <tomsmeding> | fmap under two functors |
| 14:03:31 | <tomsmeding> | but because fmap = (.) you can write |
| 14:03:33 | <tomsmeding> | :t fmap fmap fmap |
| 14:03:34 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b) |
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| 14:04:59 | <Athas> | Is there a way to get cabal to show the dependency tree for my package? |
| 14:05:12 | <Athas> | I'm quite surprised to see that I depend on Cabal and websockets. |
| 14:05:21 | <Athas> | Although I have a suspicion as to why. |
| 14:05:24 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: you can eyeball dist-newstyle/cache/plan.json |
| 14:05:36 | <tomsmeding> | not a neat tree, but the info is there |
| 14:05:40 | <Athas> | Eyeball a 155K JSON file? I see... |
| 14:05:48 | <tomsmeding> | well using search. :) |
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| 14:06:26 | <tomsmeding> | in any case, it's a graph, not a tree |
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| 14:06:58 | <Athas> | My suspicion was wrong; apparently the Cabal dependency is due to a Setup.hs from 'entropy'. It's probably been like that for a while and I never noticed. |
| 14:07:05 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: `cabal-plan tred` is perhaps closest to what you mean |
| 14:07:06 | <Athas> | And of course 'lsp' is why I depend on 'websockets'. |
| 14:07:13 | <tomsmeding> | using https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-plan |
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| 14:08:02 | <tomsmeding> | but I find that plan.json is usable enough for the odd time that I need to look at the dependency graph |
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| 14:08:49 | <tomsmeding> | (... why does lsp depend on websockets?) |
| 14:09:38 | <tomsmeding> | TIL LSP works with websockets? |
| 14:10:41 | <int-e> | I don't know. I imagine it's because it was designed in a context of an Electron application, so websockets were already there, "for free". |
| 14:10:56 | <int-e> | At least in part. |
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| 14:20:07 | <lortabac> | Athas: maybe cabal-plan dot |
| 14:21:31 | <tomsmeding> | I find that is mostly a good way to generate a huge pdf, or a huge png that no image viewer will open, with no way of reading anything from the warren of arrows |
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| 14:22:39 | <Athas> | I think lsp depends on everything, just in case. |
| 14:22:52 | <tomsmeding> | lortabac: https://tomsmeding.com/vang/9fSZUM/graph.pdf |
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| 14:23:41 | <lortabac> | tomsmeding: there may be tools to fetch useful info from a dot file. I have no idea to be honest |
| 14:23:48 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: yes, the moment you mentioned lsp I thought "ah, there's all your dependencies" |
| 14:23:57 | <tomsmeding> | lortabac: fair point, perhaps there are |
| 14:24:20 | <lortabac> | or you can feed it to an AI and ask them to find a particular path |
| 14:24:20 | <Athas> | It's interesting how my dependency graph looks almost identical to tomsmeding's from a human perspective: https://sigkill.dk/junk/graph.pdf |
| 14:24:48 | <Athas> | Very similar souls. |
| 14:25:17 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: while clearly true, I'm not sure that's a very interesting observation -- the vertical lines is just dot(1) throwing its hands up with too many dependencies |
| 14:25:45 | <tomsmeding> | And actually I disagree they look identical. Mine is right-heavy, whereas yours is more left-heavy. |
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| 14:27:29 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> My pdf rendering seems to be done on cpu... Changing view takes up to two seconds. |
| 14:27:36 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
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| 17:11:44 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> What if we made an arbitrary Ord Type and used it and Set Type to define dynamic sum types (as seen in e.g. typescript)? |
| 17:13:35 | <n0w0n> | Unrelated, but that just reminded me that ya can't encode a set of complex number in Haskell using the Set type in containers |
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| 17:13:44 | <n0w0n> | Since complex numbers are unordered |
| 17:14:29 | <n0w0n> | & Sets are secretly Red Black Trees with an ordering |
| 17:14:43 | <n0w0n> | Damn you Chris Okasaki |
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| 17:18:12 | <dutchie> | you can order the complex numbers (eg. lexicographically on their real and imaginary components), it just won't be compatible with the ring structure |
| 17:18:31 | <dutchie> | which doesn't matter if you just want to shove them into a Set |
| 17:19:06 | <dutchie> | just costs a newtype wrapper I guess |
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| 17:21:46 | <n0w0n> | An incongruent ordering, ya say? |
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| 17:26:35 | <n0w0n> | Ig ya'd lose most of the benefits of doing complex ring operations to all members of a set without rebuilding a red black tree |
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| 17:27:39 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Well doing fmap conjugate does not work either way |
| 17:27:53 | <c_wraith> | I don't know what data structure *does* give you efficient set-membership testing and also supports arbitrary transformations of all values in the structure without rebuilding it |
| 17:29:00 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> The empty one |
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| 17:31:57 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> But yes, doing something like Set.map (*2) over complex numbers will rebuild the tree (for any total Ord and random values). |
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| 17:36:49 | <c_wraith> | fwiw, Data.Set has mapMonotonic |
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| 17:37:15 | <c_wraith> | which is documented to produce broken output if the transformation isn't monotonic with respect to the ordering |
| 17:37:59 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> There is one order where (*2) does not affect order, but it will fail if you add something. |
| 17:38:30 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> But I am too lazy to formalize it. |
| 17:39:39 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Likely using angles on the unit sphere and magnitude. |
| 17:39:59 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> *circle |
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| 17:44:09 | <Leary> | `(* (a :+ 0))` and `(+ (a :+ b))` are both monotone wrt the lexicographic ordering GHC would derive. |
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| 17:45:39 | <Leary> | ijouw: Re your original question, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but `Dynamic` could (and should) have `Ord`. |
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| 17:46:11 | <Leary> | Well, not quite. A `Dynamic` limited to `Ord`. |
| 17:46:50 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> No i mean introducing a type SumT :: Set Type |
| 17:47:18 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Which acts as multiway Either |
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| 17:50:53 | <EvanR> | there's also unordered set |
| 17:51:03 | <EvanR> | as they leave 1 minute earlier |
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| 17:52:32 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Leary: You are correct (for a /= 0) |
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| 17:56:56 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> What advantage does HashSet a have over Set (Hashed a) where Ord Hashed compares the hash? |
| 17:57:14 | <c_wraith> | fewer comparisons |
| 17:57:26 | <c_wraith> | the HAMT it's based on has a much higher branching factor |
| 17:57:28 | <Leary> | Let's make that a > 0, I forgot non-positive numbers exist. |
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| 17:57:52 | <c_wraith> | I believe it's 32-way |
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| 18:02:31 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> So it trades space efficiency for faster lookup, got it |
| 18:04:14 | <c_wraith> | Leary: I tend to forget about that too |
| 18:04:21 | <EvanR> | it might not be faster depending on how expensive hashing is |
| 18:04:51 | <EvanR> | e.g. comparing bytestrings for ordering can be faster than hashing depending on the length and type of hash |
| 18:04:57 | <c_wraith> | For the specific question being asked, that's not relevant |
| 18:05:20 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Is there a word for a change (analogue to monotonic), when it reverses ordering? |
| 18:05:39 | <c_wraith> | well, there's anti-monotone |
| 18:05:45 | <c_wraith> | but it's awkward as heck |
| 18:06:09 | <c_wraith> | oh, I guess "antitone" is acceptable as well. that's better |
| 18:06:13 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Seems consistent |
| 18:06:42 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> I wrote that as answer to anti-monotone |
| 18:07:40 | <Leary> | People usually just say (monotone/monotonically) decreasing. |
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| 18:08:11 | <Leary> | But antitone is cool too. |
| 18:08:20 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> But isn't that describing the values themselves? |
| 18:08:26 | <EvanR> | if monotone is supposed to be not decreasing just say that? |
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| 18:09:31 | <c_wraith> | I would say "monotonically decreasing" as a description of a sequence, but "antitone" is a description of a function. *shrug*. It's not too important. |
| 18:10:06 | <Leary> | It's a phrasing that's more pertinent to sequences, yes, but nothing will stop mathematicians from overloading, so they use it for functions too. |
| 18:10:11 | <EvanR> | are we talking about semantics i.e. definedness |
| 18:10:42 | <EvanR> | a monotone function maps more defined inputs to more defined outputs |
| 18:11:05 | <n0w0n> | heh, oh analysis my analysis |
| 18:11:06 | <fgarcia> | reverse kind of works. or maybe not |
| 18:11:51 | <EvanR> | reversing that would be interesting xD |
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| 18:12:53 | <dutchie> | wikipedia also says "order-reversing" |
| 18:12:59 | <dutchie> | "The dual notion is often called antitone, anti-monotone, or order-reversing" |
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| 18:14:35 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> That makes monotone synonym of order-preserving |
| 18:14:50 | <c_wraith> | which is a perfectly good description |
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| 18:29:08 | <dolio> | They're all monotone, too, because the reverse order is also an order. |
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| 18:52:25 | <EvanR> | ☝️ |
| 18:52:53 | tomsmeding | . o O ( if f is antitone, then Down . f is montone ) |
| 18:53:02 | <tomsmeding> | *monotone |
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| 19:02:55 | ← | abiss27 parts (~abiss27@user/abiss) () |
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| 19:25:42 | monochrom | considers chromatic sequences >:) |
| 19:26:34 | <monochrom> | chromatic sequence: C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, ... monochromatic sequence: C, C, C, ... :) |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-02-20.