Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2026-02-23 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:03:30 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:04:12 × jreicher quits (~joelr@user/jreicher) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:05:16 → jreicher joins (~joelr@user/jreicher)
00:09:11 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:13:59 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:18:17 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
00:21:28 × jtnuttall quits (~jeremy@user/jeremyn) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
00:27:19 × paddymahoney quits (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:28:26 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
00:29:23 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:33:51 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:33:59 → paddymahoney joins (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
00:34:06 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:35:01 → jtnuttall joins (~jeremy@user/jeremyn)
00:38:18 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
00:41:32 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
00:41:33 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:42:00 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
00:44:35 → n0w0n joins (~john@user/n0w0n)
00:46:01 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
00:46:59 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:47:29 → w00ter joins (~w00ter@user/w00ter)
00:47:51 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
00:51:54 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:56:55 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:00:37 × Hobbyboy quits (Hobbyboy@hobbyboy.co.uk) (Server closed connection)
01:00:52 → Hobbyboy joins (Hobbyboy@hobbyboy.co.uk)
01:01:31 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
01:03:14 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
01:12:18 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:16:58 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:20:09 × fgarcia quits (~lei@user/fgarcia) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
01:25:52 × jreicher quits (~joelr@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb)
01:27:21 → jreicher joins (~joelr@user/jreicher)
01:27:41 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:30:06 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
01:30:09 × ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:31:03 × karenw quits (~karenw@user/karenw) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
01:31:22 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:32:37 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:34:00 → fgarcia joins (~lei@user/fgarcia)
01:34:27 → hiecaq joins (~hiecaq@user/hiecaq)
01:41:39 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net)
01:42:53 → Square3 joins (~Square@user/square)
01:43:05 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
01:49:02 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:49:16 × jtnuttall quits (~jeremy@user/jeremyn) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:50:00 → Guest0 joins (~Guest0@179.90.251.126)
01:50:06 × sclv quits (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) (Server closed connection)
01:50:16 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:50:18 → sclv joins (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv)
01:50:26 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net)
01:50:58 × Guest0 quits (~Guest0@179.90.251.126) (Client Quit)
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01:53:28 × Guest0 quits (~Guest0@179.90.251.126) (Client Quit)
01:54:12 → emmanuelux joins (~em@user/emmanuelux)
01:55:08 × emmanuelux_ quits (~em@2a01cb011051ddce36cff6fffefa7e31.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:56:02 → humasect joins (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net)
01:57:26 × Zowlyfon quits (sid346067@user/Zowlyfon) (Server closed connection)
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02:01:07 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:05:33 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:11:30 × emmanuelux quits (~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:14:03 × weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
02:14:20 → weary-traveler joins (~user@user/user363627)
02:14:22 → emmanuelux joins (~em@user/emmanuelux)
02:16:29 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:17:45 × sp1ff quits (~user@2601:1c2:4701:7850::8cd) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:18:33 × n0w0n quits (~john@user/n0w0n) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.3)
02:20:51 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:21:49 → peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135)
02:24:36 × emmanuelux quits (~em@user/emmanuelux) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:28:48 → emmanuelux joins (~em@user/emmanuelux)
02:31:52 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:35:11 × LUCKY_NOOB quits (~LUCKY_NOO@user/LUCKY-NOOB:44374) (Quit: leaving)
02:35:37 → LUCKY_NOOB joins (~LUCKY_NOO@user/LUCKY-NOOB:44374)
02:36:31 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:42:32 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
02:45:03 × emmanuelux quits (~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:46:44 × humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:46:57 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:47:37 × fgarcia quits (~lei@user/fgarcia) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:48:19 → emmanuelux joins (~em@user/emmanuelux)
02:53:00 → user363627 joins (~user@user/user363627)
02:55:03 × weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:57:06 × ski quits (~ski@remote11.chalmers.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:57:55 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:01:57 × tired quits (~tired@user/tired) (Server closed connection)
03:02:13 → tired joins (~tired@user/tired)
03:02:32 → fgarcia joins (~lei@user/fgarcia)
03:03:02 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:03:29 × w00ter quits (~w00ter@user/w00ter) (Quit: Leaving...)
03:06:57 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:08:26 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net)
03:12:05 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
03:12:27 → Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
03:12:54 → ski joins (~ski@remote11.chalmers.se)
03:13:18 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:15:39 × emmanuelux quits (~em@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: bye)
03:17:57 × red-snail quits (~red-snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Server closed connection)
03:18:00 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
03:18:14 → red-snail joins (~red-snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de)
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03:23:57 × Catty quits (~catties@user/meow/catties) (Server closed connection)
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03:26:23 catties is now known as Catty
03:27:17 × Xe quits (~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) (Server closed connection)
03:27:57 × stefan-_ quits (~cri@42dots.de) (Server closed connection)
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03:28:41 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
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03:35:33 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
03:45:35 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:46:45 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
03:46:46 × msa quits (msa@msa.planetofnix.com) (Server closed connection)
03:51:18 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
03:52:01 → msa joins (msa@msa.planetofnix.com)
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04:06:29 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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04:10:46 × edmundnoble_ quits (sid229620@id-229620.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Server closed connection)
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04:14:37 × nadja quits (~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) (Server closed connection)
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04:21:54 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
04:22:27 → lbseale joins (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus)
04:26:32 × Vizious quits (~bes@user/Vizious) (Quit: WeeChat 4.8.1)
04:28:37 × Fischmiep quits (~Fischmiep@user/Fischmiep) (Server closed connection)
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04:29:04 × hakutaku quits (~textual@user/hakutaku) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
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04:34:28 × user363627 quits (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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04:37:34 × Pozyomka quits (~pyon@user/pyon) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
04:37:46 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:41:57 × Techcable quits (sid534393@user/Techcable) (Server closed connection)
04:42:31 → Techcable joins (sid534393@user/Techcable)
04:44:57 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
04:46:31 × Sgeo quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:48:15 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
04:52:57 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
05:01:57 × lucyy quits (228ee8f0ce@user/lucyy) (Server closed connection)
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05:03:39 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:04:06 × Aleksejs quits (~Aleksejs@107.170.21.106) (Server closed connection)
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05:06:41 <jle`> is it just me or is hackage a little slow recently
05:07:30 <c_wraith> It's been having several issues recently
05:10:30 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
05:10:43 × notzmv quits (~umar@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
05:19:17 × barthandelous01 quits (barth@triton.blinkenshell.org) (Server closed connection)
05:19:35 → barthandelous01 joins (barth@triton.blinkenshell.org)
05:19:46 × kadobanana quits (~mud@user/kadoban) (Quit: quit)
05:21:42 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
05:23:34 → mud joins (~mud@user/kadoban)
05:24:46 Ging_ is now known as Ging
05:26:15 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
05:26:53 → Vizious joins (~bes@user/Vizious)
05:27:44 <gentauro> c_wraith: let me guess, Jean-CLAUDE van Doom?
05:32:41 × emaczen quits (~user@user/emaczen) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
05:34:06 <c_wraith> I have no idea. I'm not an insider there. But it's plausible, I suppose.
05:35:42 → michalz joins (~michalz@185.246.207.215)
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05:37:26 × Noinia quits (~Frank@77-162-168-71.fixed.kpn.net) (Server closed connection)
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05:38:46 × opqdonut quits (~opqdonut@static.154.72.180.157.clients.your-server.de) (Server closed connection)
05:38:53 → opqdonut joins (foobar@static.154.72.180.157.clients.your-server.de)
05:41:49 × mange quits (~mange@user/mange) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:42:08 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
05:49:17 × Typedfern quits (~Typedfern@249.red-83-37-36.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Server closed connection)
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06:05:34 × polykernel quits (~polykerne@user/polykernel) (Remote host closed the connection)
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07:24:09 <gentauro> c_wraith: fair enough. Btw, good to see that Hackage only allows for names [A .. Z] and [a .. z]. Otherwise, we might begin to see naming like with emojis and stuff (just like you see all around in README.md) xd
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07:36:21 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
07:37:49 → Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
07:42:37 <jackdk> Counter-example: `lucid2`
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07:48:49 × DetourNetworkUK quits (~DetourNet@user/DetourNetworkUK) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:48:49 × apache2 quits (apache2@anubis.0x90.dk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:49:18 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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07:58:03 → merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl)
07:59:13 <gentauro> jackdk: «A Cabal package name can use any alphabetic Unicode code-point, however Hackage rejects package names that use alphabetic code-points other than those from the Latin alphabet (that is, A to Z and a to z)». Source: https://hackage.haskell.org/upload
07:59:52 <gentauro> jackdk: but you are right https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=lucid2
08:00:19 gentauro first time ever that docs deviate from implementation
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09:14:06 <probie> Also, I'm pretty sure hyphens are allowed in cabal package names. They seem to turn up all over the place
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09:51:01 <mauke> gentauro: that just says that alphabetic characters outside of ASCII are rejected
09:51:05 <mauke> 2 is not alphabetic
09:51:33 <mauke> "A valid package name comprises an alphanumeric ‘word’; or two or more such words separated by a hyphen character (-). A word cannot be comprised only of the digits 0 to 9."
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09:55:32 <newmind> there goes my dream of naming a surveilance package "1984"
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10:32:25 <probie> newmind: nineteen-eightyfour is valid though
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10:33:27 <newmind> don't know... might get on the US blacklist-of-forbidden-words in the near future, better not risk it
10:33:53 <comerijn> It's fine, I already lost my visa-less travel privilege anyway :p
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10:34:50 <newmind> (also might already be on the chinese list of "topics we pretend don't exist")
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10:59:46 <kuribas> What's an easy way to run a haskell script for devs that don't have a haskell environment?
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10:59:53 <kuribas> Create a docker application?
11:01:39 <kuribas> Or a static binary?
11:03:20 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> By script you mean a '#!/usr/bin/ghc' file or a simple cabal project?
11:03:51 <kuribas> A cabal project, depending on other libraries.
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11:05:16 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> Never used docker with haskell before; it would need to install the compiler all the same.
11:05:28 <__monty__> Depends what you mean by easy, Stack or Nix shebangs are an option. That would be easy for you mostly.
11:05:53 <kuribas> Easy for the other devs. Maybe a dev container?
11:06:02 <kuribas> Something that automatically installs all the dependencies.
11:06:12 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> stack?
11:07:26 <__monty__> A distro-specific package is the only thing I can come up with that ticks the easiest for them box but then it depends on how many distros you'd want to target.
11:07:51 <__monty__> If you give me a docker for example, now I need to install and then figure out how to use podman.
11:09:03 <kuribas> But docker is more common that ghc (cabal/stack/ghcup) installation.
11:09:06 <tomsmeding> kuribas: you might look at https://cs-syd.eu/posts/2024-04-20-static-linking-haskell-nix or https://hasufell.github.io/posts/2024-04-21-static-linking.html
11:09:29 <tomsmeding> I've tried the alpine approach once and it didn't work for me, but then perhaps I didn't try enough / failed somehow
11:09:58 <tomsmeding> ah I may have tried something other than docker back then
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11:11:24 <__monty__> I'd personally prefer a flatpak to a docker container, especially for a tool rather than a service.
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11:11:52 <kuribas> Maybe I could try a dev container, where he can build and maybe develop on the app.
11:11:52 <comerijn> kuribas: I'd say static binary
11:12:14 <kuribas> comerijn: Doesn't that come with libc problems on linux?
11:12:33 <comerijn> kuribas: Depends which libc you use
11:12:59 <comerijn> The problem with libc is GNU libc intentionally breaking static linking
11:13:07 <comerijn> There are other libc's that work just fine
11:13:25 <__monty__> An archive with a dynamic executable and all the necessary libraries is another option.
11:13:27 <comerijn> See musl, which is used by Alpine
11:14:03 <comerijn> kuribas: Is this for other dev's in general or just for, for example, people within your organisation?
11:14:26 <kuribas> No, just my organisation.
11:14:49 <kuribas> If there is more interest, I'll probably need to port it to python or so...
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11:30:07 <Milan_Vanca> Hi guyz! How to solve "duplicate instance declarations"? Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8 defines IsString ByteString instance. Which I don't like as it truncates. I want proper utf8 implementation so I implemented another instance like fromString = TextLazyEncoding.encodeUtf8 . TextLazy.pack My intent is to start using OverloadedStrings byt with my instance.
11:33:23 <Leary> Milan_Vanca: Instances must be unique. Unless the other instance is an orphan you can avoid importing, all you can do is give your instance to a newtype over `ByteString`.
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11:43:34 <Milan_Vanca> 9u
11:44:32 <Milan_Vanca> I will try to not import whole module but only needed parts, then as Instances are not imported it might work I guess?
11:44:35 <Milan_Vanca> Ty Leary
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11:47:54 <Leary> No, instances have this funny property that they're automatically imported and re-exported by every module they touch. If the instance isn't an orphan you're cooked.
11:49:35 <newmind> which kind of makes sense, the instances should be mostly canonical, with only one real implementation that's part of the type (or class), not something you get to choose
11:49:55 <Milan_Vanca> Ok make sense.. I am going to check if that instance is an orphan.
11:50:56 <Milan_Vanca> Well but I would argue that ByteString has incorrect implementation.
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11:53:23 <int-e> Milan_Vanca: maybe you'd be happier with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/utf8-string-1.0.2/docs/Data-ByteString-UTF8.html then
11:54:35 <int-e> Oh I guess not, since it's *not* a newtype wrapper.
11:54:38 <int-e> Sorry.
11:55:32 <int-e> The package does provide the right `fromString` at least. But the IsString instance doesn't use it. That is kind of sad.
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12:07:50 <Milan_Vanca> Hmmm... looks like newtype is only option.
12:08:04 <Square2> It can't be coincidence this course got number it got https://web.cs.dal.ca/~nzeh/Teaching/3137/haskell/
12:08:19 <Square2> missing one 3, but good enough
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12:20:18 <gentauro> How does `Stackage` get packages? Do they just replicate those from `Hackage`?
12:24:57 <Milan_Vanca> gentauro: Isn't it just metadata? with some proxy to hackage?
12:31:59 <gentauro> Milan_Vanca: could be :)
12:32:16 <gentauro> or at least, that's what I'm hopping for :)
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12:36:25 <Milan_Vanca> gentauro: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/5d27c2/whats_the_difference_between_stackage_and_hackage/
12:37:35 <Milan_Vanca> One user comments that all packages are in hackage only. But who knows. You probably need to look at sources or intercept requests to see where they go.
12:40:39 <kaol> It's funny to see that the next big thing in AI is apparently comonads.
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12:46:21 <int-e> or maybe it's just category theorists trying to attach themselves to an ongoing hype
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13:04:18 <kaol> I just asked Gemini to explain EBMs and after staring at some code I asked that isn't this a comonad and it spouted an instance for it then. I haven't tried any of it yet.
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13:05:38 <kaol> I hate it when the text generation box compliments me. "Absolutely brilliant leap to make" yeah right.
13:06:57 <kuribas> I liked it much better when interactive with AI felt more like a conversation.
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13:12:26 <int-e> . o O ( Not only is this a truly astonishing insight, it's also absolutely brilliant! )
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13:42:20 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: What are you using the IsString for bytestring for anyway?
13:49:55 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: If you look here https://www.stackage.org/package/wai it uses OverloadedStrings
13:50:41 <merijn> I mean, that's just an example
13:50:45 <merijn> You're not required to use that
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13:54:33 <Milan_Vanca> Yes I know, but isn't problem about Wai/Warp using ByteStrings? SO I have to provide ByteString. So Either I create my own function String -> ByteString, and use it everywhere. Or I use OverloadedStrings and use default implementation of IsString instance. (Which don't work for all UTF8 chars that could be specified in String)
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13:55:57 <Milan_Vanca> Question... even with using OverloadedStrings there are still String instances that are converted to ByteString in runtime right? Compiler is not smart enough to "bake" ByteStrings to executable right?
13:56:45 <__monty__> Are there any that are converted at compile time?
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13:58:36 <int-e> __monty__: kind of, because of https://github.com/haskell/bytestring/blob/master/Data/ByteString/Internal/Type.hs#L423-L426
13:58:56 <int-e> (`unpackCstring#` is used by GHC to compile string literals)
13:58:57 <Milan_Vanca> __monty__: It is something that could theoretically be done. But had I been developer of GHC I would not do it.
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13:59:35 <c_wraith> You can use Addr# literals with -XMagicHash, and then use them with unsafePackAddress
13:59:50 <Milan_Vanca> If I were...
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14:00:19 <c_wraith> see https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.12.2.0/docs/Data-ByteString-Unsafe.html#v:unsafePackAddress
14:01:03 <int-e> (And I believe `unpackCString` exists because the amount of code generated for large string literals would otherwise be quite substantial.)
14:02:10 <c_wraith> I guess you could do some TH stuff to wrap unsafePackAddressLen at compile time, so it's O(1) at runtime
14:04:04 <merijn> __monty__: Yes
14:04:10 <merijn> Well, I guess not quite
14:04:30 <merijn> There's an inline conversion from the dense binary String representation of GHC directly to ByteString
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14:04:58 <merijn> Also
14:05:49 <merijn> I have a package that does the conversion at compile time for you
14:06:19 <merijn> Although that still compiles a List[Word8] into your executable and I dunno how GHC bakes that :p
14:06:49 <c_wraith> you could update your package to use BytesPrimL
14:06:50 tomsmeding suspects a `[Word8]` is worse than a `String` literal because of GHC's UTF-8 packing
14:07:10 <merijn> c_wraith: My code doesn't do anything directly
14:07:24 <merijn> the ByteString thing is just an example usecase
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14:07:45 <merijn> So using BytesPrimL is left as an exercise for the reader :p
14:08:10 <tomsmeding> merijn: "that still compiles a List[Word8] into your executable" -- is that also the user and not your package, then?
14:08:24 <tomsmeding> (I assume this is validated-literals?)
14:08:25 <merijn> tomsmeding: That's just my ByteString example, yeah
14:08:33 <merijn> tomsmeding: Yeah, I was thinking of this example: https://github.com/merijn/validated-literals/blob/master/examples/ByteString.hs
14:09:24 <merijn> If you "simply" rewrite `liftResult` to use BytesPrimL, then it should "Just Work (TM)"
14:10:19 <tomsmeding> merijn: suggestion: put that example (and perhaps others that you consider important) in the haddocks
14:10:45 <tomsmeding> I do not typically go to the repository looking for an examples/ directory when looking at documentation
14:10:57 <merijn> tomsmeding: It is :p
14:11:03 <merijn> I thought?
14:11:12 <tomsmeding> is it?
14:11:25 <tomsmeding> there is "See the ByteString example module for an example." but it doesn't point to anything
14:11:33 <merijn> ah, now, just the `Even` one
14:12:09 <tomsmeding> also Even doesn't have the actual definition, does it?
14:12:23 <tomsmeding> I'm not saying that you must or anything, but I think it would make the package more accessible if you wish
14:12:39 <merijn> It's just been years since I actually looked at it :p
14:12:50 <tomsmeding> (it's not like I practice what I preach all that well either)
14:12:54 <merijn> tomsmeding: The problem is that I don't wanna maintain the example in two places (docs and examples) :p
14:13:00 <tomsmeding> yes that's the downside
14:13:14 <tomsmeding> have an extra build step that injects the example into haddocks!
14:13:28 <merijn> That said, you should only really need `liftResult` if you have weird datatype like ByteString to begin with
14:13:42 <merijn> Since everything with a native `Lift` instance will just work
14:14:18 <merijn> oh, wait
14:14:21 <merijn> Cool beans
14:14:33 <merijn> ByteString now just has it's own Lift instance using BytesPrimL :p
14:14:40 <tomsmeding> :D
14:14:45 <merijn> So you can literally just not implement liftResult and it's instantly good
14:15:23 <tomsmeding> at that point there's little to maintain in two places any more, right, and you can just put the simplified instance in the haddocks, right? :)
14:15:31 <tomsmeding> (I'll stop now)
14:15:38 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Well, that you go. You can just use validated-literals and get whatever implementation you want, efficient embedding AND compile time validation
14:15:53 <merijn> tomsmeding: Only if I bump the lower bound by a lot, though
14:16:21 <tomsmeding> I don't think it's necessary for examples in the documentation prose to compile with old dependencies
14:16:32 <tomsmeding> if you explicitly say that this example works well only for bytestring >= ...
14:16:35 <merijn> Sure, but the examples are currently also my test :p
14:17:12 <merijn> Bytestring shipping it's own Lift is a MAJOR buff to that library though
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14:38:04 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: Interesting thanks :)
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14:46:05 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: So for recent enough ByteString (0.11.2.0) you don't have to implement liftResult (it has a default implementation using Lift), and you can just implement fromLiteralWithError or fromLiteral and it should just work
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14:57:23 <merijn> I'm not super actively maintaining that package. On the other hand it's so damn simple it hasn't needed any code changes since 2019, so you should be fine using it :p
14:58:29 <merijn> And that was the first code change since, like, I first made it in 2015 :p
15:01:00 <Milan_Vanca> Yeah interesting package.. Thank you again! :)
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20:08:08 <EvanR> the extent to which as programmers we run into or invent situations where x==y implying f(x)==f(y) doesn't hold
20:09:12 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> wouldn't that violate referential trasparency? :P
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20:09:35 <EvanR> good question
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20:13:28 <EvanR> > let f x y = (x == y, isNegativeZero x == isNegativeZero y) in f 0.0 (-1e-400)
20:13:29 <lambdabot> (True,False)
20:14:28 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> ah yes == isn't the same as it being same object
20:15:49 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> since we're free to implement == however we want, we can even violate basic properties of equality like reflexivity.
20:15:49 <EvanR> while same object speaks to me as same StableName
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20:15:57 <EvanR> which is something else again
20:16:49 tomsmeding . o O ( reallyUnsafePointerEquality )
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20:17:31 <EvanR> can we get a proper equal sign in here xD
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20:17:50 <tomsmeding> choose your favourite https://tomsmeding.com/unicode#equal
20:18:35 <EvanR> almost equal to is a perennial favorite
20:18:41 <int-e> if you're undecided: ⪟
20:18:48 <tomsmeding> lol
20:19:10 <tomsmeding> ≊ ALMOST EQUAL OR EQUAL TO is also suspicious -- surely if it's equal, it's also almost equal?
20:21:16 <EvanR> lol
20:22:04 <EvanR> so there's an equivalent of equivalences
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20:23:44 <EvanR> loonycyborg, well the slightly deeper issue that satisfying basic properties of equality is in this case... that otherwise sensible definition of (testable in this case) equality isn't universally obeyed. I.e. someone somewhere can observe a distinction between equals
20:23:49 <EvanR> than*
20:24:38 <EvanR> so it's like conflating a quotient with a thing being quotiented
20:25:16 <EvanR> anyway let us be ridiculed by math
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20:26:13 <tomsmeding> when I was studying maths, we continually had to prove stuff independent of the choice of representative, to make things work on equivalence classes
20:26:55 <tomsmeding> an Eq instance defines / ought to define an equivalence relation, but functions are not necessarily representative-independent
20:27:02 <tomsmeding> clearly isNegativeZero isn't
20:28:02 <tomsmeding> I guess the conclusion is that we should prove more things
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20:28:22 <tomsmeding> I'll leave the proofs as an exercise to the reader though
20:30:00 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> the number itself and its representation are distinct things
20:30:46 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> positive and negative zero have different representations but represent same number
20:31:08 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> at least as needed in practice
20:31:26 <EvanR> in the case of float it's kind of murky, what's the number itself, what's the representation (relevant to this law, and are reals even supposed to be like standard reals). Which I guess is food for thought when thinking about any other situation we are implementing
20:32:12 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> like if we add negative or positive zero to something then we'll get exactly the same number
20:33:16 <EvanR> that behavior wouldn't be problematic for x==y => f(x)==f(y)
20:33:37 <EvanR> it doesn't complain if everything ends up equal
20:34:46 <EvanR> and weeds upon weeds, the inverse trig functions care about the negative zero I think
20:35:28 <EvanR> > cot 0.0 (-1e-400) -- or even normal trig
20:35:30 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: cot :: t0 -> t1 -> t
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20:38:21 <EvanR> > (1 / tan 0.0, 1 / tan (-0.0))
20:38:23 <lambdabot> (Infinity,-Infinity)
20:39:44 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> ye but it's still infinity
20:40:20 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> infinity == -infinity ?
20:40:58 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> the answer is moo :P
20:41:03 <humasect> ah well ... i would put infinity and zero in the same place. negative...
20:41:17 <haskellbridge> <loonycyborg> in most cases infinity leads to exception
20:41:31 <EvanR> infinite == -infinite ok but infinite == zero might require some more coffee
20:41:35 <humasect> div by zero feels more like inifnity
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20:43:31 <EvanR> also anybody get the feeling NaN comes up much more often than infinity for some reason
20:43:41 <EvanR> so annoying
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20:49:23 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> I don't remember where it comes up and a value is more reasonable
20:49:23 <tomsmeding> infinity actually behaves kind of okay under certain floating point operations
20:49:35 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> atan (1/0)
20:49:43 <tomsmeding> > atan (1 / 0)
20:49:44 <lambdabot> 1.5707963267948966
20:50:07 <tomsmeding> > (1 / 0) * 2 > 3
20:50:09 <lambdabot> True
20:50:28 <EvanR> I approve
20:50:32 <tomsmeding> NaN, however, breaks everything it touches; EvanR perhaps this influences what you observe
20:51:02 <tomsmeding> > (1 / 0) + (-1 / 0)
20:51:04 <lambdabot> NaN
20:51:11 <EvanR> I have to preface everything I say about floats with "assuming no NaNs"
20:51:31 <EvanR> another case of math beating us, by defining 1 to be not a prime
20:51:32 <tomsmeding> "assuming these are all numbers"
20:51:42 <humasect> > (1 / 0)
20:51:44 <lambdabot> Infinity
20:52:33 <EvanR> so you don't have to preface everything you say about primes with "assuming no 1s"
20:52:49 <tomsmeding> there's plenty of math that assumes odd primes
20:53:11 <EvanR> given an odd non-1 prime...
20:53:18 <tomsmeding> which I always find a funny phrasing, almost certainly chosen because it's the shortest way to express the intended set
20:53:23 <EvanR> oh wait
20:53:35 <EvanR> I get you
20:54:14 <tomsmeding> "an odd prime p" is not even really shorter than "a prime p ≥ 3"
20:54:17 <[exa]> I once called these "degenerate" primes in front of both abstract&linear algebra folks at once
20:54:26 <[exa]> man I got hated
20:54:30 <tomsmeding> what, 1 and 2?
20:54:41 <[exa]> yes
20:54:44 <tomsmeding> nice!
20:55:11 <tomsmeding> that's a good way to annoy mathematicians
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20:57:01 <EvanR> bottom, NaN, and prime 1 walk into a bar
20:57:38 <tomsmeding> and the story yielded an infinite stream of indivisible batman?
20:57:55 <newmind> EvanR: is the punchline segfault or illegal operation?
20:57:58 <EvanR> ha
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20:59:12 <tomsmeding> (for the unenlightened: the "batman" is a reference to https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat 3:24)
20:59:28 <[exa]> I like how 3:24 looks like a bible reference
20:59:43 <tomsmeding> the imagery in the video is appropriate
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21:05:29 <EvanR> I was unenlightened but now I'm unenlightened minus that bit of enlightenment
21:05:49 <EvanR> which might still be unenlightened dependent on precision
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21:25:24 <tomsmeding> EvanR: how does it feel
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21:28:04 <EvanR> I was hoping he was going to show some haskell wats
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21:32:23 <tomsmeding> nope, unfortunately
21:34:03 <tomsmeding> % mempty
21:34:03 <yahb2> ()
21:34:08 <tomsmeding> does that count as one?
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21:36:13 <EvanR> > fold (Sum 1, Sum 2)
21:36:15 <lambdabot> Sum {getSum = 2}
21:36:20 <tomsmeding> better
21:36:35 <EvanR> > sum (1,2)
21:36:37 <lambdabot> 2
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21:38:25 <EvanR> or length of that is 1
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21:39:12 <tomsmeding> yeah Foldable (,) is good; I guess there is also the classic
21:39:14 <tomsmeding> > fix error
21:39:16 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
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21:56:10 <Leary> Suppose I have a package that fails to build with base 4.22 but succeeds with `--allow-newer=all:base`, i.e. only because its dependencies require revision to allow it. Should its bounds exclude 4.22?
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22:01:57 <Clint> what purpose would that serve?
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22:05:34 <Leary> I don't know, accurately representing buildability? I'm leaning towards allowing 4.22, I'm just not sure I should.
22:05:49 <int-e> Leary: It could build but still be broken. (Not very likely, but it would be a reason to exclude 4.22)
22:06:36 <Clint> if the dependencies get fixed then you'd be excluding it for no reason
22:06:59 <int-e> Oh I meant it could be broken specifically because of a change in base.
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22:35:29 <tomsmeding> Leary: tentative opinion that you can include 4.22
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22:36:20 <tomsmeding> the only argument against that I can see is that it's potentially confusing for a user: the package supports 4.22 but can't actually be built with it
22:36:35 <geekosaur> if you have tested it and it works with 4.22, I'd allow it; dependencies are their problem (but as a courtesy I generally file issues against them requesting bounds updates)
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23:18:08 <Leary> geekosaur: I got two of them revised eariler, but now the refined invocation looks like this: <https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/52377ecaa9e9090c7e26b91945f6d587>. I'm not sure I have it in me. <.<
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23:30:35 <geekosaur> mm, maybe the right thing to do in that case is put the correct base bound in the cabal file and maintainer-revision it down on Hackage until the coast is clear
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All times are in UTC on 2026-02-23.