Logs on 2026-02-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:07:50 | <Digit> | i like https://www.youtube.com/@arturorochoa9359/streams 's recent noob haskell learning vids |
| 00:08:32 | <tusko> | thanking you _/\_ |
| 00:23:52 | ilbelkyr | is now known as nicole |
| 00:29:01 | <Comstar> | tusko, have you seen helsinki's open course? it's a pretty nice and gentle guided way to learn haskell |
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| 02:26:21 | <ethan1> | hi, i'm just starting to learn haskell, i've been looking at https://haskell.mooc.fi and they use stack for most stuff |
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| 02:27:18 | <geekosaur> | that's not a problem, but modern cabal is much saner than very early versions 20ish years ago and you should probably learn it as well |
| 02:27:49 | <ethan1> | i was looking at https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/introduction.html#about-this-tutorial and they recommend ghcup |
| 02:28:08 | <ethan1> | well i'm running v 9.6.6 so i think i've got modern cabal? |
| 02:28:10 | <ethan1> | i could be wrong |
| 02:28:10 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> good |
| 02:28:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> cabal should be enough |
| 02:31:55 | <geekosaur> | ghcup installs both cabal and stack |
| 02:32:05 | <geekosaur> | it's an installer, not a builder |
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| 02:34:59 | <ethan1> | what i did was install debian's version of stack, and used that to install ghci |
| 02:35:04 | <ethan1> | things seem to work fine |
| 02:35:19 | <ethan1> | i want to get through the course and/or book |
| 02:35:38 | <ethan1> | i was thinking i'd stick to that setup for most of it, and then i'd tweak it later if needed |
| 02:36:11 | <geekosaur> | it'll work, it'll just get you older versions of things |
| 02:36:22 | <ethan1> | and it turns out i don't have cabal, so i installed cabal 3.10.3 |
| 02:36:36 | <ethan1> | geekosaur: that's fine then, i'll update if i need to |
| 02:36:37 | <geekosaur> | ghcup gets you recommended versions of things |
| 02:37:02 | <geekosaur> | (in particular cabal 3.10.3 is fairly old at this point and has known bugs) |
| 02:37:53 | <geekosaur> | and if your ghc is older than 9.4 it will also have potentially severe known bugs |
| 02:38:07 | <ethan1> | i have v9.6 |
| 02:38:15 | <ethan1> | how bad are the bugs? |
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| 02:40:46 | <geekosaur> | 9.6.7 is fine, older minor versions can be problematic |
| 02:41:23 | <geekosaur> | in general you want the latest minor version of any ghc (with haskell version numbers, the major number is the first two components) |
| 02:42:25 | <geekosaur> | there is certainly no reason to run very recent versions unless you want to experiment; ghc moves quickly because it's' both a research compiler and a production compiler |
| 02:42:56 | <ethan1> | specifically, i've got 9.6.6 |
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| 02:46:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> why do you have 9.6.6 |
| 02:47:37 | <geekosaur> | it's probably okay but there are some bugs on some platforms: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.6.7/docs/users_guide/9.6.7-notes.html#compiler and succeeding sections |
| 02:47:45 | <geekosaur> | maerwald: debian |
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| 02:48:11 | <ethan1> | yeah debian lol |
| 02:48:44 | <ethan1> | i'll just run the ghcup install script when i can, then |
| 02:49:08 | <ethan1> | if it becomes a huge problem |
| 02:53:24 | <Clint> | it's 9.6.6 with some patches, ftr |
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| 06:05:52 | <tusko> | Comstar: I haven't. Have been working through Hutton's book |
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| 12:38:51 | <realBeginner> | Hi, would anyone who knows Python, C, and Haskell be able to answer my question, please? I am an absolute beginner to programming. Which programming language would give me a better foundation and help me learn other things in the long run? |
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| 12:40:08 | <darkling> | They will all teach you things. They will all teach you different things, in different ways. |
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| 12:42:15 | <darkling> | Python's probably the easiest of the three to understand. Haskell is the most elegant. C (or Rust) will probably give you a slightly better idea of what's going on down at the CPU level. |
| 12:43:00 | <realBeginner> | If you were me, you would start with… ? I am very patient |
| 12:43:25 | <darkling> | Personally, I'd suggest Python. Other opinions are available. :) |
| 12:43:35 | <oskarw> | realBeginner: I started programming in python as it was introductory language on my university, and I think this is great start |
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| 12:45:08 | <merijn> | To be the dissent, I think it's a terrible start :p |
| 12:45:09 | <oskarw> | realBeginner: You can also try scheme after learning python with SICP. SICP is great book about programming in general, and is uses scheme |
| 12:45:15 | <darkling> | (My personal journey went something like: BASIC, Arm assembler, C, C++, Perl, Java, Python, Erlang, TypeScript, Rust. I've only really dabbled in Haskell.) |
| 12:45:20 | <merijn> | And empirically, starting with Haskell and going to python is fairly easy :p |
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| 12:46:33 | <oskarw> | merijn: You have to wait until IO monad to print something on screen. Also, haskell only made sense for me when I learned about state monad, and this is a long way from the start |
| 12:47:06 | <oskarw> | merijn: Which programming lanugage would you recommend for beginners? |
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| 12:50:07 | <realBeginner> | Which language has the most logical syntax and processes? I dislike inconsistency. |
| 12:50:17 | <oskarw> | realBeginner: If you would be more interested in learning how computer works, I can recommend "Turing complete" game on steam https://store.steampowered.com/app/1444480/Turing_Complete/ |
| 12:50:51 | <oskarw> | realBeginner: Could you explain what do you mean by inconsistency? |
| 12:51:10 | <__monty__> | I'd say Haskell has the nicer syntax, entirely unbiased opinion, of course. |
| 12:52:34 | oskarw | loves both haskell and lisp syntax, but he knows that liking lisp syntax on #haskell is tabu |
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| 12:52:49 | <oskarw> | *taboo |
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| 12:54:11 | <realBeginner> | English isn’t my native language, and learning its grammar was a nightmare—for example, regular nouns versus irregular nouns when forming plurals.I guess this might apply to computer languages |
| 12:54:49 | <geekosaur> | dunno about other people, but I find strings not being fully OO in python somewhat confusing and offputting. and its join method always seems backwards to me |
| 12:55:04 | <darkling> | They're generally much smaller and hence have less room for variation, but there are definitely syntactic/structural warts in places. |
| 12:55:36 | <oskarw> | geekosaur: I can agree that join method have stupid sytax in python |
| 12:55:52 | <newmind> | geekosaur: that join feels backwards, i can agree on. treating a string like a primitive type (like an int) though, that makes sense to me |
| 12:55:55 | <geekosaur> | english doesn't have grammar, it has loose guidelines that it breask on a whim ☺ |
| 12:56:18 | <merijn> | oskarw: I mean, did you know a language before starting haskell? |
| 12:56:37 | <merijn> | oskarw: My girlfriend learned haskell as her first language and didn't really struggle |
| 12:56:55 | <ski> | oskarw : sexps are fine. there was even a Haskell in sexp syntax .. (Liskell) |
| 12:57:05 | <oskarw> | Yes, I knew python, and a bit R and other languages for data science |
| 12:57:17 | <merijn> | oskarw: That's a lot of baggage, though |
| 12:57:17 | <oskarw> | But for general purpose programming, I only knew python |
| 12:57:27 | <newmind> | merijn: i have the strong suspicion that haskell is actually harder (or at least: more frustrating) to learn if you're already proficient in imperative languages |
| 12:57:33 | <merijn> | newmind: I agree |
| 12:58:04 | <oskarw> | You can write functional code in python /s |
| 12:58:08 | <newmind> | you tend to look for analogs and similarities that just don't quite work, and it's frustrating to get stuck on problems you already know should be easy to solve |
| 12:58:17 | <darkling> | oskarw: That's where I came to functional programming from. :) |
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| 12:58:43 | <ski> | oskarw : it's possibly easier to learn Haskell, if you don't know another language yet |
| 12:58:57 | <darkling> | I realised I was writing things in ever more functional style in my Python, and explicitly went looking for something to learn the details. I landed on Erlang. |
| 12:59:02 | <newmind> | like: are typeclasses like java/c# interfaces? well.. a bit, yeah, but not quite |
| 12:59:54 | <oskarw> | Outside of implementation of parsers in applicative, I didn't had problems with haskell, thought this was more about that I didn't know anything about parsers |
| 13:00:21 | <newmind> | applicative was my real "hard to get my head around" barrier |
| 13:00:23 | <oskarw> | Maybe because I had mathematical education I didn't have problems with haskell... |
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| 13:01:58 | <darkling> | Haskell is definitely mathematical catnip. |
| 13:02:03 | <Leary> | realBeginner: Haskell is certainly the language most concerned with regularity. |
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| 13:03:30 | <ski> | realBeginner : Lisps (like e.g. Scheme), and Prolog, have quite simple concrete syntax. Haskell is a bit more complicated, but, for the most part, i'd say, fairly regular, few corner cases/exceptions |
| 13:03:34 | <oskarw> | newmind: I remember spend _a lot of time_ on applicative exercise from cis194 |
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| 13:05:01 | <oskarw> | realBeginner: Do you have like dream program you want to make? Maybe we can help you more in recommending your programming lanugage based on this answer |
| 13:05:13 | <newmind> | i think it's the first time you encounter something that really has no sensible analog in procedural/oop programming |
| 13:06:23 | <oskarw> | merijn: From which source did your girlfriend learned Haskell? |
| 13:07:04 | <oskarw> | ski: I know you like sexps ;) |
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| 13:08:50 | <oskarw> | newmind: But together with parser it really throw me off. When I done some implementations for list for applicative and doing other exercises from typeclassopedia I didn't had that much of a problem |
| 13:09:01 | <realBeginner> | I love learning how to think and enjoy making complex things easier to do. |
| 13:09:45 | <oskarw> | realBeginner: If you want to broaden your way of thinking, than haskell certainly can do that |
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| 13:10:25 | <oskarw> | Also, do you like math? |
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| 13:13:23 | <realBeginner> | I enjoy geometry |
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| 13:16:03 | <oskarw> | Actual geometry enjoyer |
| 13:16:36 | <realBeginner> | The idea that there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1 is really amazing to me, I just enjoy thinking about these subjects. |
| 13:17:06 | <oskarw> | Try out haskell, if you have any problems just ask here. Here is haskell study guide I can recommend https://github.com/soupi/haskell-study-plan |
| 13:17:43 | <ski> | @where CIS194 |
| 13:17:44 | <lambdabot> | <https://github.com/byorgey/haskell-course>,<https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html> |
| 13:18:00 | <ski> | a textbook might also be nice |
| 13:19:56 | <realBeginner> | My distro is Arch‑based; is that okay, or should I choose another distro that supports Haskell? |
| 13:20:33 | <geekosaur> | it's fine if you ignore their packages and use ghcup |
| 13:20:57 | <geekosaur> | just remember that, on any distro, their language packages support their needs, not yours |
| 13:21:40 | <geekosaur> | for something like C or C++ there's enough overlap not to be a problem, but there's a reason why other languages always tell you to use their installers and/or sandboxes |
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| 13:23:45 | <Clint> | it's not always a good reason ;P |
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| 13:50:47 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> the main reason is that distros rarely follow upstream development and are stuck with buggy and vulnerable GHC versions |
| 13:51:05 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Fedora is maybe an exception, because Jens is maintaining Haskell there |
| 13:51:25 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> can't be bothered to contribute to 10 different linux distros |
| 13:52:22 | <__monty__> | NixOS is another exception. |
| 13:52:55 | <newmind> | nixos has easy-mode when it comes to dependency management for applications |
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| 13:53:35 | <newmind> | has a lot of other complications, but making sure something works even if dependencies can conflict, that's what it's good at |
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| 13:58:11 | <merijn> | oskarw: Haskell Programming from First Principles |
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| 14:00:49 | <oskarw> | merijn: Its good book |
| 14:00:56 | <oskarw> | *It's |
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| 15:36:04 | <chromoblob> | get on a channel about Haskell, get recommended Haskell. 🙄 |
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| 15:38:53 | <int-e> | . o O ( write 1 in the chat if you agree that this is a completely objective and unbiased recommendation ) |
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| 15:58:50 | <chromoblob> | 0... |
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| 16:07:14 | <__monty__> | Was the drama about the co-author of HPFFP not being fairly remunerated ever resolved? |
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| 16:43:02 | <merijn> | __monty__: Not afaik |
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| 17:14:14 | <oskarw> | chromoblob: Tbh I don't know which language is better than haskell for "I love learning how to think and enjoy making complex things easier to do." |
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| 17:36:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> The APL family, forths, and maybe smalltalk, isn't it |
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| 17:37:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oops, I was hoping that would show the replied-to: "Which languages are the most consistent..." |
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| 17:40:25 | <darkling> | Forths are all over the place, because everyone implements their own. :) |
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| 17:50:12 | <oskarw> | scheme is also cool |
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| 18:35:13 | <fgarcia> | i wanted a language i could kind of do reverse polish notation in. then i found haskell with a lot of cooler stuff |
| 18:36:14 | <fgarcia> | it's kind of funny to see people getting excited over languages getting new features and i am thinking that haskell did it before |
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| 18:40:05 | <dolio> | That's been like the past 20 years at least. |
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| 18:40:43 | <dolio> | Combined with, 'most languages can't have those features because everyone's head would explode.' |
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| 19:02:31 | <ethan1> | fgarcia: forth also does rpn |
| 19:02:34 | <ethan1> | if you're interested |
| 19:02:42 | <ethan1> | oh it was already mentioned |
| 19:02:44 | <ethan1> | nvm |
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| 19:03:50 | <newmind> | isn't forth basically RPN-the-programming-language? |
| 19:04:12 | <ethan1> | well....kinda? |
| 19:04:24 | <ethan1> | it's just how the math operators work |
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| 19:04:39 | <ethan1> | you don't have to do everything in RPN |
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| 19:07:23 | <ethan1> | nvm i thought RPN was exclusively tied to math for some reason |
| 19:07:33 | <ethan1> | everything is postfix |
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| 19:20:57 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> I made a curry that works for any Arrow; used it to define ($) = curryArrow ArrowApply.app; and noticed it is useless for Arrows that are not (->) |
| 19:23:45 | <monochrom> | It should be useful for any ArrowApply then, aka Monad. |
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| 20:00:59 | <jreicher> | "The idea that there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1 is really amazing to me". Just wait until they learn about dense vs compact. |
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| 20:05:21 | <EvanR> | alternatively imagine a number system where there are finite numbers between 0 and 1, like fixed point numbers |
| 20:05:33 | <EvanR> | is this more or less mindblowing |
| 20:05:46 | <EvanR> | some finite numbers are... really big |
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| 20:06:33 | <EvanR> | sometimes jumping straight to infinity is much easier to comprehend |
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| 20:07:06 | <monochrom> | On odd-numbered days everything blows my mind. On even-numbered days everything looks unsurprising. |
| 20:08:49 | <EvanR> | "curry that works for any Arrow" is screaming to me "actually, any cartesian category category" ? |
| 20:09:00 | <EvanR> | which has some overlap with Arrow ? |
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| 20:09:51 | <mauke> | cartesian category category |
| 20:10:01 | <EvanR> | blahhhhh |
| 20:10:06 | <EvanR> | cartesian closed category |
| 20:10:08 | <monochrom> | Every Arrow is also a Category so I think you're right on. |
| 20:10:39 | <monochrom> | Oh heh my mind auto-corrected that typo. :) |
| 20:11:22 | <mauke> | chaos computer category |
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| 20:14:46 | <jreicher> | EvanR: one of the most confounding results I ever heard is that logic is not complete with respect to all finite models. You only get completeness if you allow infinite models. (Roughly speaking) |
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| 20:15:34 | <EvanR> | I don't follow that precisely but knee jerk reaction is that's probably an eventually trivial consequence of whatever the definition of complete is xD |
| 20:16:18 | <monochrom> | Yeah, I saw logic homework questions that showed some unprovable sentences that had only infinite counter-models. |
| 20:16:21 | <jreicher> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trakhtenbrot%27s_theorem |
| 20:16:48 | <jreicher> | (I can never remember the name) |
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| 20:21:50 | <mauke> | that's like the English transliteration of the phonetic Russian spelling of the German words for <traditional costume> <bread> |
| 20:22:16 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 20:22:52 | <mauke> | Mandelbrot being "almond bread", of course |
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| 20:25:37 | <monochrom> | English b and v are associated with Greek beta and its Cyrillic equivalent. So you can have a transmutation from English b to Greek/Cyrillic beta to English v. This is known as beta reduction. >:) |
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| 20:25:56 | <monochrom> | (In a Physics channel I would be saying "beta decay" >:) >:) ) |
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| 21:26:50 | × | morj_away quits (~morj@user/morj) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 21:28:04 | zirconium.libera.chat | sets mode +v lambdabot |
| 21:29:19 | × | Typosit quits (b41a81e702@2001:bc8:1210:2cd8::494) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 21:29:42 | × | Ging quits (46fea76d80@2001:bc8:1210:2cd8::470) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 21:33:53 | califax_ | is now known as califax |
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| 22:25:17 | <tomsmeding> | or vita reduction, as it'd be called in modern greek :) |
| 22:25:53 | <monochrom> | heh |
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All times are in UTC on 2026-02-26.