Logs on 2026-03-04 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:48 | <chromoblob> | > generalCategory '☉' |
| 00:00:49 | <lambdabot> | OtherSymbol |
| 00:00:55 | <EvanR> | but then I guess chinese would be stuck without variables |
| 00:01:13 | <int-e> | > generalCategory 'ꙮ' |
| 00:01:14 | <lambdabot> | OtherLetter |
| 00:01:17 | <geekosaur> | it's kinda stuck without constructors |
| 00:01:23 | <EvanR> | it's fine because obviously variables like x y and z |
| 00:01:27 | <chromoblob> | > let x ☉ y = -(x * y) in 2 ☉ 3 |
| 00:01:28 | <lambdabot> | -6 |
| 00:01:33 | <EvanR> | are supposed to look like xD |
| 00:01:35 | <chromoblob> | cool... |
| 00:01:57 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
| 00:02:19 | <EvanR> | whoever heard of a variable not latin or greek |
| 00:02:28 | <EvanR> | ok there was the soviet programming language |
| 00:02:47 | <chromoblob> | i'm still waiting for the syntax "a `(b `c` d)` e"... |
| 00:02:50 | <yin> | . o O ( APL ) |
| 00:03:19 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 00:03:52 | <int-e> | > let (ο,o,о) = (1,2,3) in ο + o + о + ο |
| 00:03:53 | <lambdabot> | 7 |
| 00:04:10 | <chromoblob> | lol |
| 00:04:15 | <yin> | what |
| 00:04:22 | <chromoblob> | different o's |
| 00:04:35 | <yin> | scared me for a moment |
| 00:04:45 | <chromoblob> | heh |
| 00:04:52 | <geekosaur> | > generalCategory '𝐱' |
| 00:04:53 | <lambdabot> | LowercaseLetter |
| 00:05:50 | <geekosaur> | chromoblob: not gonna happen, nightmare to parse those nested backticks and in general backticked expressions |
| 00:06:05 | <geekosaur> | if they'd chosen a different closing character it would have been easier |
| 00:06:17 | <geekosaur> | consider string parsing |
| 00:06:26 | <yin> | i wish `f` was just 'f or even `f would be fine |
| 00:06:42 | <geekosaur> | plan 9 user? 😛 |
| 00:07:37 | <yin> | whitespace as application would be great too |
| 00:08:05 | <int-e> | x ◖infix◗ y |
| 00:08:05 | <chromoblob> | why would it be a nightmare? |
| 00:08:46 | <EvanR> | imagine if strings could be nested without escaping the " |
| 00:08:54 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 00:08:56 | <geekosaur> | go look at why the Bourne shell's backrticks were replaced with `$()` |
| 00:09:08 | <geekosaur> | because those _did_ nest |
| 00:09:16 | <geekosaur> | (well, with escapes) |
| 00:09:46 | <EvanR> | "abc "def" ghi" |
| 00:09:48 | <yin> | x `w `f` z` y |
| 00:09:55 | <geekosaur> | even with escapes it was really hard to deal with; without, well, I'm sure you could get a lexer to handle it but $* help the reader |
| 00:10:25 | <geekosaur> | and do remember that code is written to be readable by humans, not the computer. if we cared about the computer reading it we'd still be keying programs in in hex |
| 00:11:04 | <chromoblob> | that's why i used parentheses |
| 00:11:21 | → | Tuplanolla joins (~Tuplanoll@88-114-89-88.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 00:11:39 | <geekosaur> | and in Haskell in particular, with its rather finely diced syntax… put soemthing in the wrong place by accident and the error messages would resemble C++ template errors ☺ |
| 00:13:34 | <yin> | no way, you can nest ``? |
| 00:13:42 | <geekosaur> | no, this is if you could |
| 00:13:43 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 00:13:51 | <geekosaur> | also if it allowed general expressions |
| 00:14:48 | <chromoblob> | every backtick enters a backtick mode, in it either an id or an opening paren, latter enters a level and we're in non-backtick again; closing paren checks the level and exits into non-backtick on previous level |
| 00:15:02 | <int-e> | > let start c = c []; push z x c = c (x:z); add (x:y:z) c = c (x+y:z); end z = z in start push 1 push 2 push 3 add add end -- who needs infix operators anyway |
| 00:15:04 | <lambdabot> | [6] |
| 00:16:28 | <yin> | ah, you can leave whitespace between ``..... |
| 00:16:42 | <yin> | > succ ` fmap ` [0..1] |
| 00:16:43 | <lambdabot> | [1,2] |
| 00:17:00 | <yin> | > succ` fmap `[0..2] |
| 00:17:01 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3] |
| 00:17:15 | <yin> | this is not good |
| 00:17:19 | <EvanR> | it's like * in C >:D |
| 00:18:11 | <chromoblob> | int-e: wow |
| 00:18:27 | <int-e> | @quote * |
| 00:18:27 | <lambdabot> | * says: | shapr remembers that hours of coding can save minutes of thinking |
| 00:18:37 | <yin> | int-e: yay continuations |
| 00:18:55 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 00:19:25 | <int-e> | yin: if you want to go mildly insane, work out the type of the `start` in there. |
| 00:19:37 | <chromoblob> | wow |
| 00:22:08 | <chromoblob> | %type () |
| 00:22:39 | chromoblob | tried |
| 00:23:12 | <int-e> | % :type () -- the space is required for yahb2; the : is for ghci |
| 00:23:12 | <yahb2> | () -- the space is required for yahb2; the : is for ghci :: () |
| 00:23:46 | <int-e> | @type () -- or this for lambdabot |
| 00:23:47 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 00:27:34 | <EvanR> | cool I got the type of start in the first try... at least the most general type xD |
| 00:29:28 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 00:32:00 | <chromoblob> | i briefly thought that 'start's type would be modified by sibling definitions |
| 00:32:06 | <yin> | ([a] -> b) -> b ? |
| 00:32:36 | <chromoblob> | > let start c = c []; push z x c = c (x:z); add (x:y:z) c = c (x+y:z); end z = z in (start :: _) push 1 push 2 push 3 add add end |
| 00:32:37 | <lambdabot> | [6] |
| 00:32:40 | <chromoblob> | hmmm |
| 00:32:44 | <int-e> | yin: that's the easy part... but what's the type it's used at in the final expression? |
| 00:32:45 | <EvanR> | it was "modified" (specialized) for its use in start push 1 push 2 push 3 add add end |
| 00:33:17 | <chromoblob> | no it's not modification, it's a changed copy... :) |
| 00:33:36 | <yin> | is this an interesting exercise or will i just explore my patience? |
| 00:33:40 | <EvanR> | depends if you have monomorphism restriction! |
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| 00:33:52 | <chromoblob> | > let start c = c []; push z x c = c (x:z); add (x:y:z) c = c (x+y:z); end z = z in (start :: ()) push 1 push 2 push 3 add add end |
| 00:33:53 | <lambdabot> | Couldn't match expected type ‘()’ |
| 00:33:53 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘([a0] -> t0) -> t0’ |
| 00:33:53 | <lambdabot> | Probable cause: ‘start’ is applied to too few arguments |
| 00:34:08 | <chromoblob> | i'm silly... |
| 00:34:14 | <EvanR> | () is not a specialization of ([a] -> b) -> b |
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| 00:34:39 | <chromoblob> | i hoped it would print the actual type in the error message lol |
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| 00:36:40 | <chromoblob> | yin: i think a bit of both |
| 00:37:06 | <chromoblob> | i'm too impatient, though :) |
| 00:37:43 | <int-e> | % :t \f -> let start c = c []; push z x c = c (x:z); end z = z in (start `asTypeOf` f) push 1 end |
| 00:37:43 | <yahb2> | \f -> let start c = c []; push z x c = c (x:z); end z = z in (start `asTypeOf` f) push 1 end ; :: Num t => ; (([t] -> t -> ([t] -> [t]) -> [t]) -> t -> ([t] -> [t]) -> [t]) ; -> [t] |
| 00:38:14 | <int-e> | I guess there's that (the type for the full example won't fit inside an IRC message) |
| 00:38:57 | <chromoblob> | geekosaur: if we didn't care about computer reading programs, though, then it couldn't read them :ь |
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| 00:41:49 | <chromoblob> | i mean, parse and execute |
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| 00:43:46 | <geekosaur> | but of we cared that much, we wouldn't thropw parsing torture tests such as Haskell and Perl at them 😛 |
| 00:44:25 | <chromoblob> | who said it's a torture? |
| 00:44:29 | <chromoblob> | it's a pleasure |
| 00:44:43 | <chromoblob> | only torture for parser writers ;) |
| 00:45:25 | <yin> | and parser readers |
| 00:46:25 | <chromoblob> | write once, read never :) |
| 00:47:09 | <chromoblob> | introducing a new memory type: writable and executable but not readable :p |
| 00:48:13 | <yin> | AI intensifies |
| 00:48:20 | <chromoblob> | oh: "once written, never read" |
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| 00:51:27 | <geekosaur> | so, a warning message? 😛 |
| 00:51:37 | <geekosaur> | (or far too many error messages…) |
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| 00:57:29 | <Leary> | > let start = \k -> k (); push s x = \k -> k (x, s); apply (f, (x, s)) = \k -> k (f x, s); end (x, ()) = x in start push 1 push 2 push (+) apply apply push 3 push (*) apply apply end |
| 00:57:30 | <lambdabot> | 9 |
| 00:57:39 | <Leary> | It's much cooler with tuples than lists. :) |
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| 01:02:47 | <yin> | the little haskeller |
| 01:03:52 | <EvanR> | with nested tuples you can stash a variety of types on the "stack" ? |
| 01:06:01 | <Leary> | Yeah. |
| 01:06:34 | <yin> | :t ((), ((), ((), ()))) |
| 01:06:34 | <lambdabot> | ((), ((), ((), ()))) |
| 01:07:13 | <yin> | let x = (x,x) in x |
| 01:07:16 | <yin> | > let x = (x,x) in x |
| 01:07:17 | <lambdabot> | Couldn't match expected type ‘b1’ with actual type ‘(a1, b1)’ |
| 01:07:18 | <lambdabot> | ‘b1’ is a rigid type variable bound by |
| 01:07:18 | <lambdabot> | the inferred type of x :: (a1, b1) |
| 01:07:36 | <yin> | shame |
| 01:08:17 | <EvanR> | did you try to make an infinite tuple with an infinite type |
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| 01:09:08 | <Leary> | @let newtype T = MkT (T, T) deriving Show |
| 01:09:09 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 01:09:17 | <Leary> | > let x = MkT (x, x) in x |
| 01:09:17 | <EvanR> | it used to actually report something about infinite types |
| 01:09:18 | <lambdabot> | MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (MkT (M... |
| 01:10:03 | <EvanR> | newtype to the rescue |
| 01:10:24 | <yin> | Leary: \o/ |
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| 06:02:20 | × | gmg quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
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| 06:06:47 | <ski> | > run (push 1 . push 2 . push (+) . apply . apply . push 3 . push (*) . apply . apply) |
| 06:06:48 | <lambdabot> | 9 |
| 06:06:54 | <ski> | > run (push 1 . push 2 . dup . rot . plus . times) |
| 06:06:55 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
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| 06:45:12 | <jackdk> | > :t run |
| 06:45:13 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input `:' |
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| 06:46:04 | <mauke> | :t run |
| 06:46:05 | <lambdabot> | ((a -> a) -> t) -> t |
| 06:47:03 | <mauke> | :t run (\f -> length (f "hi")) |
| 06:47:04 | <lambdabot> | Int |
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| 12:47:55 | <flu> | hello |
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| 14:37:08 | Fischmie- | is now known as Fischmiep |
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| 14:45:40 | <yin> | hi |
| 14:48:11 | <Athas> | Hi. |
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| 18:12:56 | <yin> | i got lists and list functions \o/ https://gitlab.com/jrvieira1/fun/-/blob/main/eval.hs |
| 18:13:25 | <haskellbridge> | <shapr> Hi |
| 18:13:43 | <haskellbridge> | <shapr> What's the appeal of just saying hi? |
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| 18:14:09 | <EvanR> | so nohello people can harass you |
| 18:14:11 | <int-e> | ups and downs, his and 'los |
| 18:14:38 | <geekosaur> | "is anyone around?" |
| 18:14:47 | <geekosaur> | granting that that's a variant of "ask to ask" |
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| 18:15:07 | <EvanR> | can anyone answer a question |
| 18:15:12 | <geekosaur> | (and, notably, many of us check scrollback or etc. and can answer later) |
| 18:15:25 | <int-e> | EvanR: yes! that'll be $0.42 |
| 18:15:47 | <yin> | shapr: it's a human thing. comparable to pinging servers just to know they're there |
| 18:15:48 | <EvanR> | you get three questions and that was one of them |
| 18:16:05 | <int-e> | EvanR: don't change the deal, you only asked for one |
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| 18:21:55 | <haskellbridge> | <shapr> ok, fair enough |
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| 18:45:43 | <[exa]> | evening o/ |
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| 19:28:34 | <chromoblob> | shapr: it's particularly useful for people who are shy and not used to IRC, who haven't yet developed comfortable habits of ways of interaction on IRC |
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| 19:48:50 | <Rembane> | Good morning folks! |
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| 19:50:41 | <int-e> | chromoblob: except that replying to those messages gets tiring after the first few dozen times so often there won't be a reply |
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| 19:55:35 | <aka_dude> | > let binOp f = push f . apply . apply |
| 19:55:36 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘let binOp f = push f . apply . apply’ |
| 19:55:46 | <aka_dude> | > :let binOp f = push f . apply . apply |
| 19:55:47 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input `:' |
| 19:56:08 | Digitteknohippie | is now known as Digit |
| 19:56:08 | <aka_dude> | :let binOp f = push f . apply . apply |
| 19:56:17 | <aka_dude> | uh huh |
| 19:56:43 | <aka_dude> | run (push 1 . push 2 . binOp (+) . push 3 . binOp (*)) |
| 19:56:56 | <Clint> | what are you trying to do? |
| 19:56:58 | <aka_dude> | 🙄 |
| 19:57:01 | <aka_dude> | > run (push 1 . push 2 . binOp (+) . push 3 . binOp (*)) |
| 19:57:02 | <lambdabot> | Variable not in scope: run :: (a2 -> c0) -> tVariable not in scope: push :: ... |
| 19:57:24 | DetourNe- | is now known as DetourNetworkUK |
| 19:57:24 | <aka_dude> | Trying to play with the bot... Is the GHCi session not shared? |
| 19:57:50 | <geekosaur> | it's shared. but it's not ghci |
| 19:58:06 | <geekosaur> | if you want an actual ghci, see yahb2 (% prefix) |
| 19:58:31 | <geekosaur> | and the way you'd define run in lambdabot is with @let |
| 19:58:54 | <monochrom> | Also, push apply etc are not built-in. Someone has to define them first. |
| 19:59:03 | <c_wraith> | But do note that anyone can clear things defined with @let at any time. |
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| 19:59:27 | <aka_dude> | Of course, it's shared after all |
| 19:59:33 | <geekosaur> | someone defined them yesterday |
| 19:59:41 | <mauke> | % :edit |
| 19:59:43 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 19:59:44 | <geekosaur> | which probably means they got @undefine-d overnight |
| 19:59:54 | <aka_dude> | Ah |
| 19:59:54 | <chromoblob> | they were "defined" inside a let ... in |
| 20:00:12 | <geekosaur> | oh, whoops |
| 20:00:20 | <geekosaur> | % 1 |
| 20:00:20 | <yahb2> | 1 |
| 20:00:31 | <geekosaur> | apparently :edit got spiked ☺ |
| 20:00:50 | <monochrom> | Eventually you will realize that running your own ghci on your own computer is the most robust. Every convenient lightweight tool becomes a fragile toy. |
| 20:00:53 | <geekosaur> | (probably EDITOR=/bin/true or something) |
| 20:01:16 | <aka_dude> | % :show bindings |
| 20:01:16 | <yahb2> | type Nat :: * ; data Nat = ... ; type Xワ :: * ; data Xワ = ... ; it :: Num a => a = _ ; instance [safe] Ord Nat ; instance [safe] Eq Nat ; instance [safe] Show Nat ; instance [safe] Num Nat |
| 20:01:35 | <aka_dude> | Ahaha wow |
| 20:01:57 | <aka_dude> | :info Xワ |
| 20:02:05 | <aka_dude> | % :info Xワ |
| 20:02:05 | <yahb2> | type Xワ :: * ; data Xワ = Xワ ; -- Defined at <interactive>:21:1 |
| 20:02:16 | <mauke> | % :cd .. |
| 20:02:46 | <monochrom> | cf. the tragedy of the commons |
| 20:02:46 | <aka_dude> | A Clingon speaker must have defined these, I see |
| 20:03:12 | <EvanR> | haskell is best written in the original klingon |
| 20:04:49 | <Rembane> | Something like this I reckon: https://aphyr.com/posts/342-typing-the-technical-interview |
| 20:07:52 | <monochrom> | push apply etc were using CPS to emulate a stack. |
| 20:08:02 | <geekosaur> | that was left over from someone experimenting with hiragana symbols and discovering that, being caseless, they can't be used as constructor or type names |
| 20:09:15 | <ncf> | katakana |
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| 20:10:35 | <aka_dude> | % :t id.id |
| 20:10:35 | <yahb2> | id.id :: c -> c |
| 20:11:56 | <mauke> | :t id `id` id |
| 20:11:57 | <lambdabot> | a -> a |
| 20:12:09 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom 17 |
| 20:12:09 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you |
| 20:12:32 | <EvanR> | :t ego |
| 20:12:33 | <lambdabot> | t |
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| 20:36:06 | <monochrom> | > ego 5 |
| 20:36:14 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<timeout>> |
| 20:36:18 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 20:36:59 | <int-e> | @undef |
| 20:36:59 | <lambdabot> | Undefined. |
| 20:37:01 | <int-e> | :t ego |
| 20:37:02 | <lambdabot> | error: [GHC-88464] Variable not in scope: ego |
| 20:37:06 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 20:38:20 | <monochrom> | On the bright side, "@define x=0" is auto-corrected to "@undefine" so it is like the data structure that supports only delete. >:) |
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| 23:00:13 | <newmind> | i have to say, big refactoring is actually quite fun in haskell... it's a joy when you're actually brave enough to do bigger structural changes and still not completely break your code |
| 23:03:39 | <fgarcia> | with the language, that is one thing i like. maintaining something long term has been nice. |
| 23:04:30 | <newmind> | its also nice while you're still figuring out the interface/structure, since you're less likely to settle with something that's not quite right |
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| 23:06:13 | <gentauro> | How do you specify in a .cabal file a specific GHC version to build. This is from a Haskell Stack yaml file: `resolver: ghc-7.10.2`. |
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| 23:10:19 | <geekosaur> | you don't, since you can't force someone installing from e.g. hackage to install particular ghc versions |
| 23:10:27 | <geekosaur> | cabal.project can control it |
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| 23:11:17 | <geekosaur> | (stack, via snapshot/resolver, can control this, but it's because that installs ghc and specific versions of packages) |
| 23:12:01 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: oh snap |
| 23:12:01 | <geekosaur> | also, that resolver might not do what you intend: it installs only ghc bootlibs. you almost always want a full LTS or nightly version instead |
| 23:12:38 | <gentauro> | so I'm building a package that works for 9.10.3, but since hackage builds with 9.8.4 it breaks |
| 23:12:45 | <gentauro> | that's not very nice :-\ |
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| 23:13:29 | <geekosaur> | you have even less control over that: hackage will not install additional compilers on demand to support individual packages |
| 23:13:35 | <geekosaur> | or libraries |
| 23:14:08 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: hmmmm |
| 23:14:22 | <gentauro> | so I need to aim at the ghc version installed on Hackage? |
| 23:14:58 | <geekosaur> | only if you care about its build report |
| 23:15:18 | <geekosaur> | you can build locally and upload documentation, hackage has instructions |
| 23:15:56 | <geekosaur> | you can document what ghc versions are accepted (see `compiler:`) and that will be displayed on the package page |
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| 23:20:28 | <geekosaur> | if you want to be really pedantic you can check impl(ghc < 9.10) and set `buildable: False` so installers with too old compilers get better error messages |
| 23:21:51 | <geekosaur> | (instead of compiler errors getting vomited up at them) |
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| 23:27:34 | <geekosaur> | years ago there was a matrix builder on hackage, but it broke and nobody's been able to figure out hvr's code to fix it |
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| 23:29:35 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: I'm trying to build for 9.8.4 |
| 23:29:38 | <gentauro> | hope that helps |
| 23:30:41 | <geekosaur> | isn't that a different kind of problem? you'll have to check the 9.10 release notes and see if you're tripping over an incompatibility or new feature |
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| 23:40:24 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: yeah, if I "make changes" to build for 9.8.4, then 9.10.4 no longer builds |
| 23:40:31 | <gentauro> | kind of `meh` |
| 23:41:43 | gentauro | I will look again at it tmorrow. To tired to care |
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| 23:46:50 | <geekosaur> | worst case you'll need to enable CPP and conditionalize code on __GLASGGW_HASKELL__ (https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/phases.html#standard-cpp-macros) |
| 23:48:27 | <geekosaur> | (dammit I typed that three times and still got it wrong) |
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| 23:59:30 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: it actually build and now it's green on both `build` and `documentation` on Hackage |
| 23:59:43 | <gentauro> | I guess people trying to build with 0.10.3 gonna get recked? |
| 23:59:51 | <gentauro> | anyway, heading to bed |
All times are in UTC on 2026-03-04.