Logs on 2026-03-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:31:50 | <probie> | fundamentally, lisp macros are not really much different than template haskell; they're just a bit less obvious because nothing visually distinguishes them from functions |
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| 00:32:29 | <humasect> | well.. |
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| 01:50:00 | <jreicher> | dpk: sorry? Why do you think they don't expand at runtime? |
| 01:51:13 | <td123> | hey all, I'm scratching my head on this for a while so going to ask here for some clues, I have a stack.yaml with `- retroclash-lib-0.1.2.3` under the extra-deps. I'm running `stack build --allow-newer` and it's not building the `retroclash-lib` package and I can't import in ghci, but there are no errors in `stack build --allow-newer`. Any ideas how this is possible? |
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| 02:12:27 | <haskellbridge> | <alexfmpe> Not a stack user but isn't that just an override to LTS? You need to add it as a dep to package.yaml or so? |
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| 02:19:37 | <td123> | I'm not using a package.yaml file, I'm using a project.cabal file, and it's in the build-depends: also |
| 02:20:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> project.cabal doesn't affect stack builds, it's a cabal-install thing |
| 02:21:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> alexfmpe 's answer is right |
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| 02:26:43 | <td123> | ah so I need a package.yaml then, I didn't realize that was a thing, thanks all, I'll read up on that more |
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| 02:30:00 | <geekosaur> | are you confusing project.cabal with cabal.project? |
| 02:30:38 | <geekosaur> | package.yaml just writes a foo.cabal for whatever "foo" is from the package name |
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| 02:39:16 | <td123> | geekosaur: hmm I see. I think I need to learn stack a little bit more then so that I can use it properly. I thought all you had to do was add it to the stack.yaml and .cabal files to make it work. Google's ai summary of google results led me astray then |
| 02:39:55 | <geekosaur> | that normally is enough, but extra-deps may need additional massaging because they're deliberately overriding stack and stack doesn't have a solver |
| 02:40:39 | <geekosaur> | I'm not a stack user and know only basic usage; I don't know how --allow-newer affects it, as distinct from how it affects cabal |
| 02:43:40 | <geekosaur> | but I can say that stack is simpler than cabal until you start messing with extra-deps, then it suddenly becomes harder (and much harder as you add extra-deps) |
| 02:44:18 | <geekosaur> | but if you have only the one, you may be better off just pinning it to a later version and skipping the --allow-newer |
| 02:44:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ohh I'm sorry, I total was. geekosaur and alexfmpe are right but I was not. |
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| 02:48:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> td123 package.yaml isn't required, stack will use the project.cabal file directly otherwise |
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| 02:50:24 | <geekosaur> | stack's package.yaml is just a more convenient way to generate cabal files, which can be significantly more complex to write directly (granting that most people don't need that complexity) |
| 02:51:42 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and yes normally adding a package to build-depends is what's needed to make it importable in ghci. Note, that means ghci as run by "stack ghci" or cabal equivalent, in your project. Not just "ghci" at the command line. |
| 02:51:43 | <geekosaur> | also cabal files require you to write some things out fully, which package.yaml lets you abbreviate |
| 02:53:17 | <td123> | alright, I relaxed the version bounds for clash-shake so I no longer need --allow-newer for stack build, but I still can't import something like `import RetroClash.Utils` in `stack ghci` |
| 02:53:52 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> does "stack exec -- ghc-pkg list | grep retroclash" show it installed ? |
| 02:54:17 | <td123> | nope |
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| 02:54:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> is it in the right build-depends list in the .cabal file ? each component can have a different one |
| 02:55:32 | <geekosaur> | they said it was building, so presumably it is |
| 02:55:45 | <geekosaur> | I don't know how stack ghci deals with multiple components, though |
| 02:56:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> if "stack build" logged that package being installed successfully, it should be showing up in that ghc-pkg command I would think. |
| 02:57:02 | <td123> | stack build works, but it isn't logging that package as being installed, here is my cabal file https://paste.tomsmeding.com/sGAahNdz |
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| 02:57:34 | <probie> | jreicher: you're the one asserting they can expand at runtime. Can you give a minimal example (that doesn't use `eval`, since whilst technically true, it's equally dangerous without macros) |
| 02:57:46 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> capitalised Build-Depends in the executable component - is that valid ? |
| 02:58:24 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 02:58:52 | <geekosaur> | the Cabal library (actually Cabal-syntax) would be complaining about an invalid cabal file otherwise |
| 02:59:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> so I hope.. |
| 03:01:53 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~cabal/Cabal-1.0/doc/pkg-spec-html/x611.html#SBI-PKG-DESC |
| 03:02:40 | <geekosaur> | this hasn't changed, field names are case independent and always have been |
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| 03:05:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> good |
| 03:05:26 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> td123 retroclash-lib isn't listed under packages: in stack.yaml is it ? shouldn't be |
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| 03:06:50 | <td123> | It's listed under extra-deps: Here's my stack.yaml and stack.yaml.lock: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/m4q1xjRa |
| 03:07:37 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> all looks fine. I am scratching my head too. |
| 03:08:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> at this point I would be testing with a more minimal .cabal file |
| 03:09:27 | <geekosaur> | were it cabal instead of stack I'd be digging at plan.json (probably via cabal-plan, but sometimes I `jq . plan.json | grep …`) |
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| 03:11:18 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> does "cabal build --dry-run" look like it would install retroclash-lib ? |
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| 03:12:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> we would expect it to, and "stack build --dry-run" too |
| 03:13:14 | <jreicher> | probie: I'm not sure I understand the challenge/question. Any macro is expanded at runtime, and a human can't tell what the expansion will do without "performing it in their head". So it's statically analysable only in the same way that any (simple) code is; i.e., not really. |
| 03:13:47 | <jreicher> | It's not like the C preprocessor which cannot use all of C. A Lisp macro can be arbitrary Lisp code. |
| 03:16:07 | <td123> | alright, I think I might be getting somewhere, I created a new project with `stack new test-stack`, added retroclash-lib-0.1.2.3 to extra-deps in stack.yaml, and added it to package.yaml as well to the dependencies and now I'm getting an error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/85f8ohfe |
| 03:17:56 | <probie> | jreicher: so running "hello.lisp" from https://paste.sr.ht/~probie/646187f9483b6d526adf872692b2d7e9b69614dd will output "T\n2\n4", since `some-macro` doesn't depend on the runtime value of `*flag*` |
| 03:19:32 | <probie> | The value of `(some-macro *2)` is decided during the macro expansion phase, which is generally considered a distinct thing from "runtime" |
| 03:21:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> td123 seems reasonable. I might be confused, but: your pastes showed a seven-segment.cabal file, but the stack.yaml's packages list mentions a clash-shake package |
| 03:21:48 | <probie> | If you want to perform static analysis on lisp code, you run it after macro-expansion; in the same way you'd do it for Haskell after all Template Haskell has been evaluated |
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| 03:22:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> with that stack.yaml file, stack build will build only clash-shake |
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| 03:23:16 | <td123> | I think you figured it out, I think I might need a `- .` in there as well huh. |
| 03:23:26 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> aha |
| 03:26:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> significant fog of war :) |
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| 03:27:41 | <jreicher> | probie: OK, I understand. I regard eager macro-expansion as a compiler optimisation that should be indistinguishable from the behaviour of not having it. And also when I run your code through an interpreter I get different behaviour, but I'm guessing you regard that as invalid since you seem to think the behaviour of "real" compilers is the authority on semantics. And that's OK; just wanted to know where the difference of opinion was. |
| 03:27:55 | <td123> | yup that was it, now it's building retroclash-lib! Thanks everyone :) |
| 03:29:05 | <jreicher> | This also explains why macro-expansion tools are needed. A human can't do static analysis without "running" the expansion. But you might like to say "compiling" it. |
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| 03:36:52 | <probie> | jreicher: interesting; what are you running it through? |
| 03:37:39 | <probie> | huh, clisp gives me a different result |
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| 05:17:10 | <jreicher> | probie: I just used ielm because it's right in front of me. Good enough for this example I think even though you might not consider it a "real" lisp environment. (And I probably wouldn't argue with that.) |
| 05:17:41 | <jreicher> | What did clisp give you? |
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| 05:57:19 | <probie> | jreicher: It gave me "T\n2\n2". After wasting time looking into it, both responses are correct wrt. the Common Lisp standard. I'd call ielm a "real lisp environment", but I had incorrectly assumed that by lisp you meant "common lisp" and not "an arbitrary member of the lisp family of languages" |
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| 06:34:58 | <jreicher> | I haven't made up my mind yet which Lisp is the One True Lisp. ;) |
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| 08:17:28 | <arahael_> | I wonder how the emacs crowd feels about that statement. :P |
| 08:19:54 | <Freakie> | does anyone have general tips on doing FFI to C/C++? I have to link some dependencies along with my own library but there must be some better way than manually linking from where cabal installed the packages |
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| 08:26:16 | <[exa]> | jreicher: the true lisp are many |
| 08:27:25 | <[exa]> | Freakie: the "your own library" that you have to link the dependencies to -- that is a C or haskell one? |
| 08:27:43 | <[exa]> | Freakie: btw check out c2hs if you didn't already, it may help a lot (and you can steal a lot of tricks from its users) |
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| 08:32:58 | <Freakie> | I'm doing haskell to c++ which seems a much less treated topic |
| 08:33:14 | <Freakie> | so it's both my own code + the dependencies |
| 08:36:53 | <[exa]> | so "haskell calls C++" if I get it right? |
| 08:37:08 | <[exa]> | (I assumed that the less-treated topic would be "C++ calls haskell") |
| 08:37:26 | <Freakie> | no, the other way around |
| 08:37:35 | <Freakie> | I have a Haskell library that I need to call from C++ |
| 08:37:55 | <Freakie> | oh I guess c2hs does do that |
| 08:38:17 | <[exa]> | ahhhh okay, and you are currently forced to handpick all the dependency libraries from whatever cabal produces |
| 08:38:19 | <Freakie> | nvm that, I'm bad at glancing |
| 08:39:21 | <Freakie> | I have hunted down the lib files from my library at whatever deeply nested folder cabal builds them but I'm not going to put in the work to hunt and write down the directories where cabal installs other packages |
| 08:39:34 | <Freakie> | there must be some better method |
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| 08:41:57 | <[exa]> | you might want this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-package-description-file.html#foreign-libraries |
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| 08:42:26 | <[exa]> | oh noes they left |
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| 08:48:56 | <Freakie> | exa sorry pc went to hibernate, not sure if you replied meanwhile |
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| 09:56:18 | <[exa]> | Freakie: you might want this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-package-description-file.html#foreign-libraries |
| 09:56:27 | <[exa]> | (resent) |
| 09:57:33 | <[exa]> | (oh whoops "resent" is not a good shortcut for "transmitted again") |
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| 09:59:13 | <Freakie> | that's what I've been using which at least lets it *compile* (at least if I forcefeed cabal the right arguments to turn off profiling) |
| 09:59:34 | <Freakie> | but I still have the issue of trying to actually link it on the cpp side |
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| 10:00:26 | <Freakie> | also side note: the file structure of build systems makes me irrationally tired at times |
| 10:08:06 | <[exa]> | ok, might be useful to see the cabal config and commands |
| 10:08:43 | <[exa]> | btw you get the haskell lib as one big .so in the end? |
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| 10:12:50 | <Freakie> | yeah |
| 10:13:07 | <Freakie> | I've tried to look around the cabal documentation but frankly I don't think it's been very helpful |
| 10:13:38 | <Freakie> | not sure why it wouldn't automatically put the symbols in the output library to begin with though |
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| 10:21:05 | <[exa]> | Freakie: that would mean it's linking somewhat statically (kinda half-statically) |
| 10:21:05 | <[exa]> | but I think there should be a way to do that |
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| 10:21:05 | <[exa]> | if you didn't try forcing a static build on that, I'd suggest giving it a shot |
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| 10:30:16 | <Freakie> | okay I did pass -staticlib to ghc for that particular library |
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| 10:34:04 | <Freakie> | I did it trying to bypass a compilation error that I see now may not be necessary |
| 10:34:04 | <Freakie> | looks like not passing -statliclib was the fix I needed, now I feel silly. |
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| 10:34:04 | <[exa]> | oh did that work? |
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| 10:44:57 | × | sm quits (~znc@plaintextaccounting/sm) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | dyniec quits (~dyniec@dybiec.info) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | adamCS quits (~adamCS@70.19.85.77) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | arthurvl quits (~arthurvl@2a02-a469-f5e2-1-83d2-ca43-57a2-dc81.fixed6.kpn.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | int-e quits (~noone@int-e.eu) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | gentauro quits (~gentauro@user/gentauro) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | CalimeroTeknik quits (~calimero@user/calimeroteknik) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:57 | × | kawzeg quits (kawzeg@2a01:4f9:c013:cfbf::1) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | smiesner quits (b0cf5acf8c@user/smiesner) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | Angelz quits (Angelz@Angelz.oddprotocol.org) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | Ankhers quits (e99e97ef8e@2a03:6000:1812:100::2a2) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | uint64_t quits (ec7b9bb9f3@2a03:6000:1812:100::139b) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | leah2 quits (~leah@vuxu.org) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | nadja quits (~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | bsima1 quits (9d7e39c8ad@2a03:6000:1812:100::dd) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:57 | × | Eoco quits (~ian@128.101.131.218) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:58 | × | xelxebar quits (~xelxebar@42.203.199.104.bc.googleusercontent.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:58 | × | df quits (~ben@justworks.xyz) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:58 | × | beaky quits (~beaky@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::1e:a001) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:58 | × | dumptruckman quits (~dumptruck@45-79-134-140.ip.linodeusercontent.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:58 | × | dispater quits (~dispater@user/brprice) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | TimWolla quits (~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | exfalsoquodlibet quits (a7085e0f71@user/exfalsoquodlibet) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | Philonous quits (~Philonous@user/philonous) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | caasih quits (sid13241@id-13241.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | duncan quits (c6181279e3@user/meow/duncan) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | idnar quits (sid12240@debian/mithrandi) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | lexi-lambda quits (sid92601@id-92601.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | welterde quits (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | nicole quits (ilbelkyr@libera/staff/ilbelkyr) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | absence quits (torgeihe@hildring.pvv.ntnu.no) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | mrmonday quits (~robert@what.i.hope.is.not.a.tabernaevagant.es) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | mniip quits (mniip@libera/staff-emeritus/mniip) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | coldmountain quits (sid484352@id-484352.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | bb010g quits (~bb010g@wank.party) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | totbwf quits (sid402332@user/totbwf) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | geekosaur quits (sid609282@xmonad/geekosaur) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | dy quits (sid3438@user/dy) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | hololeap quits (~quassel@user/hololeap) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | hamishmack quits (sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | S11001001 quits (sid42510@id-42510.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | farn__ quits (~farn@2a03:4000:7:3cd:d4ab:85ff:feeb:f505) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | _\_ quits (~o@user/offon) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:44:59 | × | astroanax quits (~astroanax@2001:19f0:7402:f82:5400:1ff:fec4:f7d7) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | jmct quits (sid160793@id-160793.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | lantti quits (~lantti@xcalibur.cc.tut.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | xnbya quits (~xnbya@2a01:4f8:c17:cbdd::1) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | sixfourtwelve quits (~ethanmorg@static.82.129.225.46.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | elarks quits (~elarks@user/yerrii) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | Alex_delenda_est quits (~al_test@5.139.233.200) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | haasn quits (sid579015@id-579015.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | buhman quits (sid411355@user/buhman) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | tristanC quits (~tristanC@2602:4b:ac7b:500:701e:9a24:a355:5957) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:44:59 | × | astra quits (sid289983@user/amish) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | mstruebing quits (~mstruebin@ns343649.ip-188-165-193.eu) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | hellwolf quits (~user@d2c7-375c-6044-5280-0f00-4d40-07d0-2001.sta.estpak.ee) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | Adran quits (~adran@botters/adran) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | mauke quits (~mauke@user/mauke) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | Hobbyboy quits (Hobbyboy@hobbyboy.co.uk) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | sefidel quits (~sefidel@user/sefidel) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | slondr quits (cf9f9e8f44@2a03:6000:1812:100::10b6) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | cbarrett quits (sid192934@id-192934.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | xacktm quits (bnc4free@user/xacktm) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | eugenrh quits (~eugenrh@user/eugenrh) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | xal quits (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | apache quits (apache2@anubis.0x90.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | bastelfreak quits (bastelfrea@libera/staff/VoxPupuli.bastelfreak) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | samhh quits (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | tomsmeding quits (~tomsmedin@user/tomsmeding) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | feetwind quits (~mike@user/feetwind) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:00 | × | stilgart quits (~Christoph@2001:41d0:2:8673::42) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | trampi quits (~trampi@mx.trampusch.info) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | xerox quits (~edi@user/edi) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:00 | × | chymera quits (~chymera@ns1000526.ip-51-81-46.us) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | MironZ3 quits (~MironZ@nat-infra.ehlab.uk) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | dcb quits (~dcb@user/dcb) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | marinelli quits (~weechat@brrr.fr) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | acidjnk_new3 quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e59583adec8ec8581817.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | Digit quits (~user@user/digit) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | divya quits (divya@140.238.251.170) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | edm quits (sid147314@id-147314.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | jonrh quits (sid5185@id-5185.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | degraafk quits (sid71464@id-71464.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:00 | × | rawles quits (sid630849@user/rawles) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:01 | × | Catty quits (~catties@user/meow/catties) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:01 | × | DDR_ quits (~DDR_@user/DDR-:65247) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:01 | × | Vajb quits (~Vajb@n7m5g0hrctljxjtgjiv-1.v6.elisa-mobile.fi) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:01 | × | mesaoptimizer quits (~user@user/PapuaHardyNet) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:01 | × | jj quits (~apropos@node-1w7jr9pqogh9vahu1mvneock5.ipv6.telus.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:01 | × | jakesyl_____ quits (sid56879@id-56879.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:01 | × | ames quits (~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:01 | × | Flow quits (~none@gentoo/developer/flow) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:02 | × | noctux quits (~noctux@user/noctux) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:02 | × | FANTOM quits (~fantom@90.251.214.54) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:02 | × | slomp quits (~slomp@47-158-212-88.lsan.ca.frontiernet.net) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:02 | × | distopico quits (~cerdolibr@xvm-111-150.dc2.ghst.net) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:03 | × | Ekho quits (~Ekho@user/ekho) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:03 | × | sudden quits (~cat@user/sudden) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:03 | × | czan quits (~czan@user/mange) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:03 | × | bggd_ quits (~bgg@2a01:e0a:fd5:f510:bfe:c198:15:df5e) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:03 | × | AlexNoo quits (~AlexNoo@5.139.233.200) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:03 | × | polykernel quits (~polykerne@user/polykernel) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:03 | × | juri_ quits (~juri@217-114-215-140.pool.ovpn.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:03 | × | _d0t quits (~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (*.net *.split) |
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| 10:45:04 | × | yushyin quits (wXieVo4SsI@mail.karif.server-speed.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | aspen quits (sid449115@id-449115.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | kmein quits (~weechat@user/kmein) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | Pent quits (sid313808@id-313808.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | b20n quits (sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | Fangs quits (sid141280@id-141280.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | mikko quits (~mikko@user/mikko) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | elenril quits (~elenril@tutturu.khirnov.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | mima quits (~mmh@user/mima) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | robertm quits (robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | stefan-__ quits (~m-yh2rcc@42dots.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | ent quits (entgod@kapsi.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:45:04 | × | pie_ quits (~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) (*.net *.split) |
| 10:52:18 | → | mjrosenb joins (~mjrosenb@pool-71-190-143-170.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
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| 10:52:39 | <[exa]> | that's the end of my logic tho. :D |
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| 10:52:40 | <Freakie> | well I'm just compiling with GHC directly and importing the dynamic libraries with the appropriate flags |
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| 10:59:04 | <Freakie> | no, seems I'm back where I started :/ the library files don't inclued dependencies |
| 10:59:06 | <Freakie> | include* |
| 11:00:02 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 11:00:37 | <[exa]> | Freakie: the "dependencies" are what exactly, in this case? (other haskell libraries?) |
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| 11:03:19 | <Freakie> | i'll get back to you in 15 minutes |
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| 11:14:53 | <Freakie> | the dependencies are just package imports from cabal |
| 11:15:39 | <Freakie> | including ones maintained by the haskell org directly such as containers |
| 11:16:27 | <[exa]> | I'm still confused |
| 11:16:34 | <[exa]> | what command do you write there then? |
| 11:17:04 | <[exa]> | I assumed something like `gcc something.cpp -lmyhaskellib -lcontainers -Lsomewhere/deep/in/dist-newstyle/blah/bleh/containers/lib ....` |
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| 11:17:54 | <Freakie> | well that's the thing |
| 11:18:04 | <Freakie> | the lib files are located wherever cabal installed them |
| 11:18:17 | <Freakie> | which is hell to keep track of |
| 11:18:46 | <Freakie> | one of the imports has 4 or so directories that each have a lib file for that package and I don't know which of those 4 is the one cabal uses |
| 11:19:03 | <[exa]> | what happens if you reverse the logic, put the cpp main() in a cabal project and just call it as the first thing from haskell main and let it do its own thing? (I assume that would push cabal to link it correctly by itself) |
| 11:19:25 | <Freakie> | will try |
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| 11:20:08 | <[exa]> | btw might be helpful to wait for evening until more people wake up, I did this only in a remotely similar fashion, 2 times probably, and ended up working it around in both cases |
| 11:20:51 | <Freakie> | maybe, but as long as someone more informed than myself is around I can get nudged in the right direction |
| 11:21:21 | <Freakie> | also might be more prudent to save some energy for advice regarding why my program still uses 100x more memory than it should, if you recall me praying to the gods about that |
| 11:21:27 | <[exa]> | yeah, I meant, more such people would appear later today |
| 11:21:59 | <[exa]> | Freakie: is the 100x more like 1kB and 100kB or more like 1GB and 100GB? |
| 11:22:27 | <Freakie> | to give you an idea: for the smallest input sizes memory usage is the nursery size, more or less |
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| 11:22:42 | <Freakie> | then it jumps from 6 mb, to 14, to 130, to 1-2 gb, to more than I have ram |
| 11:23:12 | <[exa]> | you might need a spraybottle of strictness annotations |
| 11:23:12 | <Freakie> | I tried using GHC.DataSize which has the size effect of doing garbage collection, but not the same way that System.Mem does |
| 11:24:16 | <[exa]> | if you have any data that you expect to be actually stored for some time (not just stream through some functions and disappear completely), add a lot of ! into them |
| 11:24:17 | <Freakie> | in other words, calculating the data size somehow reduces the live data from 1-2 gb to 20 mb (at the cost of runtimes that increased a thousanfold or something), while the native GC functions seemed to do anything |
| 11:24:41 | <[exa]> | yap that confirms it :D you force it, the thunks collapse |
| 11:25:17 | <[exa]> | cf. lazy foldl vs strict foldl' |
| 11:25:21 | <Freakie> | well I've tried strictifying (even strictifying everything) and it didn't do much |
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| 11:25:39 | <[exa]> | try running with a profiler to see where the allocations happen |
| 11:25:45 | <Freakie> | I already know what and where |
| 11:25:47 | <Freakie> | just not why |
| 11:25:52 | <[exa]> | ah |
| 11:26:03 | <[exa]> | pastebin? |
| 11:26:07 | <Freakie> | the constructor tag is called CONSTR_NOCAF but I couldn't find anything on what makes it different from other types |
| 11:26:24 | <[exa]> | (not sure if the code is public-ish :D) |
| 11:26:33 | <Freakie> | well the repo is private |
| 11:26:39 | <Freakie> | do you want the code snippets or profiling? |
| 11:27:03 | <[exa]> | if you know which snippet causes it and you can paste it, it might help |
| 11:27:13 | <Freakie> | on it |
| 11:30:07 | <[exa]> | btw CONSTR_NOCAF is iirc "some constructor that didn't fit in the specialized tiny cases" so it's basically "just any data" |
| 11:30:47 | × | weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 11:30:58 | <Freakie> | just didn't know if the tag communicated something that might be used to troubleshoot or not |
| 11:31:02 | <Freakie> | https://pastebin.com/uB36SXJ2 hope this is enough context |
| 11:31:37 | <Freakie> | the function in question is called at the end of a loop iteration to transfer relevant information from a priority queue to the output |
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| 11:31:59 | <[exa]> | ahhh that's this code, I see |
| 11:32:59 | <Freakie> | the let bindings were an attempt to eliminate thunks but i dont think they do anything |
| 11:33:51 | <Freakie> | if you give me a sec i can show some profiling as well |
| 11:34:03 | <[exa]> | that seems flawless; maybe add a ! in front of `x` there becasue that's the only thing that might get thunkificated |
| 11:35:01 | <Freakie> | about 90% of the live data from heap profiling is `UnreducedArc`s though |
| 11:35:05 | <[exa]> | also you can use strict tuples (Data.Strict.Tuple) instd of the (# #) primitives, it's probably going to be the same but the strict tuples are somewhat less syntactically invasive |
| 11:35:34 | <Freakie> | the unboxed tuples are hell yeah but it's less the strictness and more the allocations themselves that bothered me |
| 11:35:45 | <Freakie> | i've been pretty conservative with doing it though |
| 11:36:19 | <Freakie> | I guess in theory the argument could be the issue |
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| 11:37:54 | <[exa]> | oh no PtrNode actually forces the `x`, shouldn't be an issue |
| 11:39:20 | <Freakie> | any easy to way share png/svgs? I guess just imgur |
| 11:39:48 | <[exa]> | imgur is ok |
| 11:40:04 | <[exa]> | not sure if there are any better nowadays |
| 11:40:30 | <Freakie> | https://imgur.com/a/yiZl0CN |
| 11:40:51 | ← | oskarw parts (~user@user/oskarw) (ERC 5.6.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.2)) |
| 11:41:42 | <Freakie> | not sure what the STACK is unless it's just a plain old program stack |
| 11:42:50 | <Freakie> | i'm running a slightly larger input that shows the behavior more clearly |
| 11:43:03 | <[exa]> | continuation stack ("list of function invocations waiting for forced results") |
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| 11:43:25 | <[exa]> | kinda hints that there's really an actual very deep force at the end |
| 11:43:35 | <Freakie> | https://imgur.com/a/e0uZSwU |
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| 11:44:13 | <Freakie> | the first image had about 50 mb max residency profiled, this one has 900 mb |
| 11:44:36 | <Freakie> | so it looks like the stack gets kinda irrelevant on bigger data |
| 11:45:00 | <[exa]> | this looks like it might actually be exploding algorithmically |
| 11:45:07 | <[exa]> | as in, you're doing BFS there basically, right? |
| 11:45:23 | <Freakie> | no, a product combination of two lists |
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| 11:45:36 | <Freakie> | they contain nodes ordered by level |
| 11:45:59 | <[exa]> | can you try tracing out the length of the LPQueue? Just to be super sure. |
| 11:46:10 | <Freakie> | I have before, it's not that suspicious |
| 11:46:16 | <[exa]> | ok |
| 11:46:25 | <Freakie> | it contains `Arc1`s btw |
| 11:46:37 | <[exa]> | might be that it copies them too much or something |
| 11:47:07 | <Freakie> | the peaks are a result of the way the inputs are generated so that's not really an issue |
| 11:47:33 | <Freakie> | and the valleys correspond to one full iteration of the algorithm (which is then stored to be combined with the next input) |
| 11:48:45 | <Freakie> | the priority queues and outputs should be roughly equal in complexity size, and the ridges show how much data is actually carried into the next iteration, as far as I can tell |
| 11:48:59 | <[exa]> | yeah that looks sensible |
| 11:49:05 | <[exa]> | which kind of queue is the LPQueue? |
| 11:49:09 | <Freakie> | Arc1s are fully expected to take a lot of space because they contain unresolved information |
| 11:49:13 | <Freakie> | in this case it's just a list of lists |
| 11:50:17 | <Freakie> | but this is a refinement from a previous version that used two priority queues of either Data.Set or a min heap from the pqueue package |
| 11:51:17 | <[exa]> | ok I assume the queue is not to blame then |
| 11:51:26 | <[exa]> | weird. |
| 11:51:30 | <Freakie> | no, but again the queues do not contain `UnreducedArc`s which are the issue |
| 11:52:01 | <Freakie> | what just fucks me is that manually forcing garbage collections does nothing (except explode the runtime) but measuring *anything* with GHC.DataSize collapses the memory consumption |
| 11:52:20 | <[exa]> | how do you "run" the outputInternalArcsPQ1? |
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| 11:52:35 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah that's the point of space leaks, if you force evaluate the data, the data disappears |
| 11:52:47 | <Freakie> | fair point I guess |
| 11:52:49 | <[exa]> | you might just `deepseq` instead of the DataSize, it will fix itself just as well |
| 11:53:05 | <Freakie> | I playing around with forcing but maybe I used it on the wrong argument |
| 11:53:20 | <[exa]> | btw a good strategy is to try to bisect the problem with deepseq in random places |
| 11:53:32 | <[exa]> | "good" as in "if everything else fails this gives hope" |
| 11:53:48 | <[exa]> | yeah I suspect there's something that slipped |
| 11:53:51 | <Freakie> | I feel like "good strategy" and "random places" is a dire symptom of what I'm doing here |
| 11:54:19 | <Freakie> | but I call the function (as well an equivalent one for another priority queue) just before recursion to the next iteration |
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| 11:55:08 | <Freakie> | https://pastebin.com/Dztw40Dg |
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| 11:55:47 | <[exa]> | which function do you use from the DataSize? the recursive one? |
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| 11:56:35 | <Freakie> | I mean I refactored it back to not use IO because I need purity but I tried playing with both recursiveSize and closureSize |
| 11:57:23 | <[exa]> | throw in this thing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deepseq-1.4.8.1/docs/Control-DeepSeq.html#v:force |
| 11:57:27 | <[exa]> | see if it helps |
| 11:57:45 | <[exa]> | if it helps, search for more thunks :D |
| 11:57:48 | <Freakie> | think I'll try seeing if can `seq` my way out of it first |
| 11:58:25 | <[exa]> | btw it might be useful to get a normal profile from ghc (the one that gets generated from profiling build if you add +RTS -p) |
| 11:58:39 | <Freakie> | I have as well, it's just incompatible with some of the heap profiling |
| 11:58:54 | <Freakie> | the .prof output generally suggests that both halves of the algorithm are doing equal work in both time and allocations |
| 11:58:56 | <[exa]> | yeah well, it points to functions that call the allocations, which MIGHT correlate |
| 11:59:08 | <Freakie> | but the heap profiling is overwhelmingly biased from this one function |
| 12:00:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 12:04:15 | <Freakie> | huh, profiling with -hC shows two functions that make up 80% of the live data, but -p shows that they only account for like 2% of the allocations |
| 12:04:32 | <Freakie> | I mean that's obviously because the accumulator is the one leaking but still |
| 12:08:37 | <Freakie> | yeah force works but it's a *big* hammer |
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| 12:14:23 | <Freakie> | I need to find something less intrusive than `force` because of how many iterations the algorithm makes (like millions of calls to the function) unfortunately |
| 12:14:43 | <[exa]> | try moving the `force` one level down |
| 12:14:54 | <[exa]> | depeper into expression or something |
| 12:15:18 | <[exa]> | that should allow you to locate the unevaluated data |
| 12:15:44 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 12:15:44 | <[exa]> | when you got that, you'll just add the missing ! that causes the issue |
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| 12:17:48 | <Freakie> | i'm considering just adding another accumulator argument to the function that is built during the loop and then just appended to the rest of the accumulator |
| 12:18:14 | <Freakie> | that should at least reduce the work `force` needs to linear complexity |
| 12:20:17 | <Freakie> | ideally you should be able to just `seq` or `$! ` the accumulator/constructor as you thread it along but I can only assume that I'm doing it in the wrong places |
| 12:22:18 | <Freakie> | but are space leaks supposed to happen for data that isn't thunks? |
| 12:22:29 | <Freakie> | aren't thunks* |
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| 12:28:07 | <[exa]> | yeah if all data is already forced, the "lazy" space leaks won't happen |
| 12:28:37 | <Freakie> | what i'm saying is there aren't any thunks (at least not any constructors tagged as such) taking that much space |
| 12:28:54 | <[exa]> | btw not sure if $! will help here -- it forces the argument, you probably want to force the result |
| 12:28:55 | <Freakie> | hence why I mentioned CONSTR_NOCAF and whether or not it might be a symptom |
| 12:29:26 | <[exa]> | yes the NOCAF corresponds to the label of your data types, probably of the Arc1 |
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| 12:29:31 | <[exa]> | btw all constructors start as thunks |
| 12:30:02 | <[exa]> | (essentially all non-trivial ones, that is) |
| 12:30:24 | <Freakie> | right but I'm saying that there aren't any thunk *constructors* so my question is whether or not CONSTR_NOCAF can be lazy in some other sense |
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| 12:31:17 | <[exa]> | it might be that the unevaluated thunk just holds the CONSTR_NOCAF, not that the CONSTR_NOCAF is the issue |
| 12:31:58 | <Freakie> | wouldn't the heap profile still show a thunk somewhere? like my priority queues basically take 0 space on the heap because the elements are recorded separately |
| 12:32:37 | <[exa]> | not necessarily |
| 12:33:22 | <[exa]> | you might have a thunk that says something like `if something then xxx else yyy` with `something` already known ofc, but it just holds both `xxx` and `yyy` because the runtime didn't care to force it yet |
| 12:33:48 | <[exa]> | in your case the `xxx` or `yyy` might be a huge list of arcs or so |
| 12:34:18 | <Freakie> | think I basically need some heuristic to determine when to force if this is supposed to be feasible |
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| 12:34:57 | <[exa]> | nah, you just need to find the expression that holds it :) |
| 12:35:10 | <[exa]> | that's the nitpicky part of the job, once identified it's easy |
| 12:35:42 | <Freakie> | that's kinda the thing though, I know exactly which lines of code produce the data |
| 12:35:58 | <[exa]> | try putting `force` in front of them and see if it fixes it |
| 12:36:03 | <Freakie> | already have |
| 12:36:18 | <[exa]> | did it help? |
| 12:36:24 | <Freakie> | problem is forcing the accumulator every single iteration kills performance |
| 12:36:39 | <[exa]> | ah so it's the accumulator `acc` right? |
| 12:36:45 | <Freakie> | yes |
| 12:36:56 | <[exa]> | try forcing just the stuff that goes into it (you're appending a head there right?) |
| 12:37:40 | <[exa]> | :t \x xs -> ((:) $! x) xs |
| 12:37:41 | <lambdabot> | a -> [a] -> [a] |
| 12:37:48 | <[exa]> | perhaps like this ^ |
| 12:38:13 | <Freakie> | I have tried playing around with something similar but I think I did it the other way around |
| 12:38:26 | <[exa]> | yeah you don't want to deepseq the tail there |
| 12:38:40 | <Freakie> | no just normal `seq` |
| 12:38:53 | <[exa]> | ok that might work quickly |
| 12:39:03 | <[exa]> | but try `force` on the actual element |
| 12:39:39 | <Freakie> | but man some of these combinators twist my brain |
| 12:40:02 | <[exa]> | L35 here https://pastebin.com/uB36SXJ2 : `force arc` instd of `arc` |
| 12:40:32 | <Freakie> | but it's already been forced at the let expression? with strictness on teh lhs |
| 12:40:45 | <[exa]> | `force` is deep, ! is shallow |
| 12:41:04 | <Freakie> | but if the result has been forced, there shouldn't be more to unpack from it when appending? |
| 12:42:16 | <[exa]> | I know it doesn't make much sense logically but that's the issue with debugging, we're trying to find a minor inconsistency, the least assumptions you drag in the less probability that you assume yourself into longer debug |
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| 12:43:20 | <[exa]> | the exercise is "force helps globally and !s have failed" => "find the smallest piece of code where force helps locally and focus the !s there" |
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| 12:44:17 | <Freakie> | honestly seems like nothing works |
| 12:44:27 | <[exa]> | except for the global force on the accumulator? |
| 12:44:45 | <Freakie> | pretty much |
| 12:45:13 | <[exa]> | can you try wrapping the accumulator call in something that does `nf` on the result of it? |
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| 12:46:08 | <Freakie> | do you mean `rnf` or is it some other package? |
| 12:46:17 | <[exa]> | as in: outputInternalArcsPQ1' pq1 req x acc = id $! outputInternalArcsPQ1 pq1 req x acc |
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| 12:46:53 | <Freakie> | seems my catchphrase today is "will try" |
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| 12:47:12 | [exa] | afk teaching |
| 12:47:14 | <[exa]> | good luck :) |
| 12:48:33 | <Freakie> | I also managed to find the worst of both worlds by trying to force the list at the end of the global loop iteration which had the effect of ballooning the runtime without reducing the heap data |
| 12:49:01 | <Freakie> | which at least supports the behavior |
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| 12:52:42 | <Freakie> | it's interesting to see how the garbage collection time gets completely dwarfed when forcing things though |
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| 18:15:06 | <monochrom> | Generally, if you don't troubleshoot your code until it's 1000 lines long, nothing will work. |
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| 18:51:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> nice debugging chat |
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| 19:24:35 | <raincomplex> | "untested code doesn't work" |
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| 19:24:58 | <raincomplex> | good rule of thumb ime |
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| 19:51:24 | <bwe> | Reader Monad: f :: a -> Reader b; g :: b -> Reader c; how do I properly call f from within g? I mean, is there a better way than calling runReader in `g`? |
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| 19:58:02 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> If you have ReaderT you can stack them (Reader is usually something like ReaderT Identity). |
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| 20:01:17 | <bwe> | ijouw: how do I stack them? |
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| 20:13:48 | <probie> | bwe: What's wrong with calling `runReader`? It's "free" |
| 20:14:25 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Monad_transformers |
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| 20:17:21 | <probie> | If you strip away newtypes, `Reader r a` is just (r -> a). What is unnatural about providing an argument to a function? |
| 20:21:24 | <bwe> | …as of now I am used to: `d <- ask; ... runReaderT d f` how can I do it without the ask and `runReaderT d` wrapping? |
| 20:22:42 | <mauke> | :t runReaderT |
| 20:22:43 | <lambdabot> | ReaderT r m a -> r -> m a |
| 20:23:15 | <mauke> | :t do { d <- ask; runReaderT d ?f } |
| 20:23:16 | <lambdabot> | (MonadReader (ReaderT r m b) m, ?f::r) => m b |
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| 20:24:00 | <mauke> | what |
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| 20:25:38 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> Is that a new way to introduce r with f :: r |
| 20:26:55 | <[exa]> | sm: iz not, we didn't find it ;_; |
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| 20:28:29 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> still, some educational discussion! |
| 20:30:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it's very hard for a non-expert human reading code to see all the places laziness can bite |
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| 20:30:33 | <bwe> | mauke: I messed up the function call, correct should be: runReaderT (f a) d |
| 20:30:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> though bite is not quite the right word |
| 20:31:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> all the leaky bits |
| 20:31:50 | <mauke> | that's still the wrong reader type |
| 20:32:22 | <mauke> | you got d from the outer reader context ("Reader c"), but you're using it as the inner reader context ("Reader b") |
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| 21:00:26 | <monochrom> | @type withReader |
| 21:00:26 | <lambdabot> | (r' -> r) -> Reader r a -> Reader r' a |
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| 21:11:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Rob Pike's rules of programming: https://www.cs.unc.edu/~stotts/COMP590-059-f24/robsrules.html |
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