Logs on 2026-03-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:56:21 | <geekosaur> | taking the bridge (and laptop) down for battery replacement. hopefully back soon. |
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| 03:27:39 | <geekosaur> | everything should be back now |
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| 04:03:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> geekosaur: want a infomaniak server? |
| 04:03:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> swiss-based, 2 GB ram and 40 GB disk space for 5.4 EUR, should be 6.3 in funbuck$ |
| 04:03:59 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i can cover a year |
| 04:04:15 | <geekosaur> | no, I have a server lined up, I just need to find time (and not be suffering through alternating nights of no sleep). I also want to replace the bridge software with something that's easier for people to work with |
| 04:04:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm so sorry geekosaur! gah |
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| 07:50:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> haskell-links.org has been retired, use https://silicon.int-e.eu/lambdabot/State/where.html instead |
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| 07:53:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> . |
| 07:53:15 | <haskellbridge> | @where browser-keywords |
| 07:53:15 | <lambdabot> | https://gist.github.com/simonmichael/6f95f7d72048649a9ba05c7b31e44968 time-saving Haskell-related url macros |
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| 08:06:56 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: do you have a Framework laptop? |
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| 08:24:11 | <gentauro> | is there a way to turn EVERYTHING off in a `GHCi` session? I tried with `λ> :set -XNoImplicitPrelude` but didn't seem to work … |
| 08:25:01 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: what remains? |
| 08:25:20 | <gentauro> | λ> 4 + 2 -- 6 (0.00 secs, 111,456 bytes) |
| 08:25:31 | <[exa]> | gentauro: I think you have to use that one as a commandline argument |
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| 08:25:41 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: ghci -XNoImplicitPrelude |
| 08:25:57 | <[exa]> | gentauro: anyway I was using just `import Prelude ()` to kinda hide the conflicty things |
| 08:25:58 | <tomsmeding> | if you set it with :set then it doesn't un-import Prelude, it just sets it to not be imported next time |
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| 08:27:05 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: this worked like charm -> `ghci -XNoImplicitPrelude` (many thx) |
| 08:27:29 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: possibly add -ignore-dot-ghci if your .ghci uses Prelude stuff |
| 08:29:11 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: my `~/.ghci` is quite basic -> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/QcokzxL2 |
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| 08:34:53 | gentauro | alias ddd='stack ghci --ghc-options -XNoImplicitPrelude' 👀 |
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| 08:39:30 | <gentauro> | have any of you used this approach for domain-driven design (DDD) doing "real-time" defs with customers? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/cPSF7ANV |
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| 08:40:42 | <gentauro> | there is no implementation details, however, it's "very easy" to define the systems domain like that (Haskell enforce corretness and provides you with a nice AST you can then use to generate "boiler plate stuff") |
| 08:41:22 | <[exa]> | gentauro: so basically you agree with customers on the highlevel-ish types of all operations? |
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| 08:42:48 | <gentauro> | [exa]: [exa]ctly !!! |
| 08:42:57 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 08:43:01 | <gentauro> | xD |
| 08:43:35 | [exa] | feels boxed |
| 08:43:45 | tomsmeding | blames [exa] |
| 08:43:59 | <[exa]> | perhaps I'm undefined the whole time guys, you never know until you force it |
| 08:44:37 | <tomsmeding> | I think you're just an infinite loop |
| 08:45:30 | <[exa]> | gentauro: anyway. :D back in the time when I was dealing with actual customers we didn't have much haskell (nor customer understanding for functional programming). So we did a roughly similar thing but with constraints and as little "concrete objects" as possible because customers tended to have opinions about anything they could imagine as materializable (they often imagined it wrong) |
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| 08:47:26 | <gentauro> | [exa]: «(they often imagined it wrong)» this comes to mind -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg |
| 08:48:25 | <[exa]> | gentauro: so the sotware kinda looked like a minimal set of actors (I was calling them "robots"), the robots ahd constraints ("must know this", "remembers this", "must not know this" because of security etc, "listens to requests from these guys"), and the "actions" were written usually as pre-conditions and post-conditions to avoid folks from starting to think about programs |
| 08:48:50 | <gentauro> | I normally sit in emacs (terminal ofc). Left part of screen is module for defining domain and right part is GHCi. We start basic and then CTRL+L (evaluate to GHCi). If there are any inconsistencies, Haskell WILL tell you |
| 08:49:17 | <[exa]> | yeah the point is that 99% of the usual programming job was the inconsistencies :D |
| 08:49:18 | <gentauro> | it's always easier to tell customers: "Your suggestions is not sound" by showing that having to argue for ages |
| 08:50:21 | <[exa]> | anyway the whole point was that the customers were not very computer friendly and they knew much better about what they did _not_ want, instead of the actual form of stuff that they wanted. |
| 08:50:50 | <gentauro> | once high-level is in place, we can begin to add attributes. Lets say for Person. We can also translate Person to a sumtype (Adult | Child and so) |
| 08:51:14 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: oh let me quickly fix this loop here......whoops now there's two of them |
| 08:51:31 | <gentauro> | [exa]: the most diff thing to do is to actually show customers what they NEED and not what they want ;) |
| 08:51:48 | <[exa]> | yeah |
| 08:52:18 | <gentauro> | all the consultancies I worked for, I was tech-sales dude |
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| 08:52:59 | <gentauro> | people always asked why I was doing it. Didn't I like code more. My answer was always: "Do you prefer that we bid on projects with the snake-oil sales reps?" |
| 08:52:59 | <[exa]> | extracting the needs without the taint of wishes and assumptions, the holy grail of customer relations :D |
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| 08:55:46 | <gentauro> | and getting paid for your those (scoping is SO important). However, birds-eye-view is as important as well. If you can spot (early) something that is essential for the project to a succeed and somehow get that in (and other stuff out) you are a God among people |
| 08:55:50 | <gentauro> | xD |
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| 16:05:42 | <geekosaur> | gentauro: framework 13, old enough to be affected by the battery+bios bug, and it was too late to save the battery when the bios was updated |
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| 17:47:55 | <tomsmeding> | this channel be like: I look at random old logs of the channel and instead of doing what I wanted to do, end up on wikipedia on the Entscheidungsproblem |
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| 17:48:21 | <tomsmeding> | my thanks to dminuoso in 2021 |
| 17:51:28 | <EvanR> | @remember tomsmeding this channel |
| 17:51:28 | <lambdabot> | I will never forget. |
| 17:52:00 | <tomsmeding> | I feel like something is missing there |
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| 17:54:39 | <monochrom> | Yes, the question of "when I turn on my computer/phone, will I do what I planned or will I get distracted by notifications?" is undecidable. |
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| 17:55:06 | <geekosaur> | does that work? I think it only keeps what you said |
| 17:55:33 | <geekosaur> | (which allows, among other things, editing for better quotability and quotes from non-channel folks |
| 17:55:40 | <geekosaur> | @quote tomsmeding channel |
| 17:55:40 | <lambdabot> | tomsmeding says: this channel |
| 17:55:43 | <monochrom> | Corollary: By an easy reduction, the question "when I launch an RPG, will I focus on the main quest or will I focus on a side quest" is also undecidable. >:) |
| 17:55:44 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
| 17:56:48 | <int-e> | just get drunk in the bar while you deliberate the choice |
| 17:57:20 | <monochrom> | heh that's a great plan |
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| 17:57:46 | <monochrom> | "don't use your laptop/phone unless you're at a bar" |
| 17:58:07 | <monochrom> | "a person and their phone entered a bar..." |
| 17:58:35 | <int-e> | but you need at least 3 bars for a decent internet connection |
| 17:58:46 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 17:59:51 | <EvanR> | oops |
| 18:00:09 | <EvanR> | @forget tomsmeding this channel |
| 18:00:09 | <lambdabot> | Done. |
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| 18:00:47 | <monochrom> | tomsmeding: "You may also be interested in..." Turing's PhD thesis, "Systems of Logic". (Adding oracles, transfinite ordinals, probably also the arithmetic hierarchy.) |
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| 18:01:22 | <tomsmeding> | nah I'm building an ircbrowse replacement |
| 18:01:38 | <tomsmeding> | why else do you think I'm looking at random old logs that I have lying around ?! |
| 18:01:43 | <monochrom> | Haha it contains its own side quest "chapter 10: the continuum hypothesis, a digression" |
| 18:01:48 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
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| 19:39:26 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: did you figure out how to tame warp's "yolo let's accept(2) until EMFILE" |
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| 20:00:09 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: tested the thing with the semaphore in the handler before fork, it apparently worked, so now it's stashed until I actually need it |
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| 20:01:13 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: I looked at the warp source code and it seemed like the accept already happens before the fork, so putting a semaphore in settingsFork doesn't seem like it really blocks accept |
| 20:01:37 | <tomsmeding> | then again, there's supposedly some EMFILE handling around the accept(2) call, but not sure if that actually does anything |
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| 20:02:48 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: well if you don't fork, the socket is killed and you have an acceptable state again (oh so punny) |
| 20:02:58 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
| 20:03:35 | <tomsmeding> | oh right and because accept() is called in a sequential loop, this way you can limit the number of open sockets |
| 20:03:37 | <[exa]> | and failing early is actually the recommended behavior in congestion, so I think it's okay-ish |
| 20:03:55 | <tomsmeding> | with the downside being that connections that go over the limit are accepted and then dropped instead of not accepted |
| 20:04:02 | <tomsmeding> | hm |
| 20:04:14 | <[exa]> | "not accepted" means "queued forever in the OS" which might be worse |
| 20:04:19 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 20:04:38 | <[exa]> | in other news I'm not a great fan of tcp |
| 20:04:40 | <[exa]> | :D |
| 20:05:22 | <tomsmeding> | then I bet you're happier with QUIC |
| 20:05:42 | <tomsmeding> | I don't know how it works but a friend does and he's happy for reasons complementary to what you seem to not like in tcp |
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| 20:13:11 | <[exa]> | nah, you still need a state machine there, doesn't help. |
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| 20:25:08 | <TMA> | [exa]: there is a parameter to listen(2) that limits how many unaccepted connections are waiting. setting it to 5 or 3 is fine for the normal case of acepting often |
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| 20:28:58 | <tomsmeding> | TMA: following the call chain, warp seems to pass 2048 there |
| 20:29:04 | <tomsmeding> | through this function https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/streaming-commons-0.2.3.1/docs/src/Data.Streaming.Network.html#bindPortTCP |
| 20:30:29 | <TMA> | that might be a problem |
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| 20:57:20 | <monochrom> | listen(a number in the order of thousands) is simply mean. |
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| 20:59:29 | <monochrom> | In the brick-and-mortor retail world, there are only two reasons to do that (long customer queue). One is to create hype ("oh look at how many people are dying to buy our product!"). The other is in supermarkets putting pressure on cashier workers. |
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| 21:04:18 | <monochrom> | And now that I think about it, even those reasons are intended to be mean (to customers in the 1st case, employees in the 2nd case). |
| 21:05:34 | <tomsmeding> | putting pressure on cashier workers is indirectly also a bit mean to the supermarket, as it results in more mistakes and more missed (i.e. stolen) products, but likely the effect on the cashiers is bigger, yes |
| 21:06:06 | <EvanR> | standing there with nothing to do is the worst though |
| 21:07:14 | <EvanR> | having worked black friday, from my perspective it wasn't particularly different from a normal busy day, since I can't tell the diff between 5 people in my line vs 500 |
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| 21:08:17 | <monochrom> | Pretty sure the capitalist supermarket managers have found the sweet spot of the right queue length pressure to balance between "motivation to work" and error rate. :) |
| 21:08:27 | <glguy> | When I worked people who'd been waiting in a long line behaved at least a little differently from those who hadn't been waiting long |
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| 21:08:57 | <glguy> | I worked at a computer store in the age of mail in rebates. Every sunday lines went to the back of the store as people can in to get their free-after-rebate stuff |
| 21:08:58 | <tomsmeding> | (my supermarket cashier experience is from when I was like 15 and didn't know shit) |
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| 21:09:42 | <EvanR> | yeah just assume the customer is baseline evil and you won't be disappointed |
| 21:10:11 | <glguy> | I also worked in a movie theater back when people still lined up to see movies on the big screen and lines could get quite long |
| 21:12:15 | <tomsmeding> | can we talk about dependencies? I have a simple app that uses chronos (not even all that much), mustache, warp, and some negligible other stuff. Chronos and mustache pull in aeson, and warp pulls in crypton and http2, and suddenly I have tons of transitive dependencies that take ages to build |
| 21:12:36 | <tomsmeding> | I don't use aeson or json in any way, and I only need HTTP/1.1 so crypton and http2 are useless |
| 21:13:40 | <tomsmeding> | and then I have a server that crashes and burns when I spam it with requests because warp decided that limiting accepts is not necessary |
| 21:14:53 | <EvanR> | why does chronos or mustache even use aeson |
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| 21:15:28 | <tomsmeding> | chronos I think only for ToJSON/FromJSON instances |
| 21:16:21 | <tomsmeding> | mustache the inverse, i.e. it has some functions taking ToJSON for convenience |
| 21:16:26 | <tomsmeding> | I need none of this |
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| 21:17:07 | <tomsmeding> | tempted to reimplement date <-> day-number handling from chronos, and simple GET-only HTTP/1.1 handling from scratch instead of warp |
| 21:17:12 | <tomsmeding> | and nuke like 95% of my deps |
| 21:17:14 | <EvanR> | breaking ToJSON FromJSON instances that aren't actually used in a library into a separate library, orphans I guess, sounds better in light of this |
| 21:18:29 | <EvanR> | date <-> day-number ought to be not much copy pasta |
| 21:18:34 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 21:18:44 | <tomsmeding> | but then I still have aeson from mustache |
| 21:18:58 | <tomsmeding> | so just nuking chronos helps naught |
| 21:19:13 | <EvanR> | premature optimization! |
| 21:20:01 | <EvanR> | this story suggests smaller more targeted libraries with fewer dependencies might be warranted |
| 21:20:21 | <tomsmeding> | I've been looking for a haskell http server that is small and does simple stuff for ages |
| 21:20:23 | <EvanR> | e.g. a thing that parses HTTP, but not necessarily every content type that exists |
| 21:20:45 | <tomsmeding> | snap is the closest that I've found, but this time I wanted to try something different because snap is a bit weird sometimes |
| 21:21:20 | <tomsmeding> | e.g. snap segfaulted when a request had an invalid Date: header because their C code didn't check errors (I fixed that) |
| 21:21:57 | <EvanR> | OOF |
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| 21:23:09 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/snapframework/snap-core/pull/305 |
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| 21:23:19 | <tomsmeding> | not Date, If-Modified-Since apparently |
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| 21:27:04 | <mauke> | this is why I use a functional language like haskell: so I can FFI out to C for parsing and segfault on syntax errors |
| 21:28:12 | <tomsmeding> | precisely |
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