Home liberachat/#xmonad: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-04-21 (liberachat/#xmonad)

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01:58:04 <abastro> Is there a way to ask password to change root-owned directories?
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06:05:40 <tdammers> fwiw, JSON is a lousy choice for a human-editable config file format
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10:01:57 <abastro[m]> tdammers: I think so as well. Btw which human-readable config format do you recommend?
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12:10:23 <MrElendig> abastro[m]: sudo/doas
12:11:46 <geekosaur> I'm trying to figure the context. there's no (good/safe) way to integrate sudo functionality into, say, XMonad.Prompt
12:11:50 <abastro[m]> MrElendig: Seems I forgot to include the details. I meant a way to ask for PW and get permission as root from haskell program
12:12:08 <abastro[m]> Oh, this is for installer kind.
12:12:27 <geekosaur> there may be a way provided as part of the OS to pop up a password dialog, but these days I think that's through polkit and you can't easily integrate with that either
12:13:27 <abastro[m]> I guess firing `sudo` would be the best way then?
12:13:34 <geekosaur> generally yes
12:14:17 <abastro[m]> Sad, I don't know how to write to root-owned file
12:15:12 <abastro[m]> I ofc wanted to avoid invoking sudo but installation business seem to involve them in the end.
12:15:41 <geekosaur> if you're installing to system-owned directories then yes
12:17:47 <abastro[m]> Well, dependency programs
12:25:05 <abastro[m]> Oh right, about writing to root-owned file - I wanted to write to usr/share/xsessions to add my sessions
12:28:26 <geekosaur> the cheaty way is sudo tee $filename
12:28:36 <geekosaur> (shell metacharacters don't work with sudo)
12:29:41 <geekosaur> and then pipe your file to it (the password is read from /dev/tty, not stdin)
12:30:42 <abastro[m]> Oh, tee looks useful!
12:31:16 <abastro[m]> Thank you.
12:33:09 <abastro[m]> I don't like how installing dependency programs require root access... tho it would be reckless to not protect those program installations behind root access
12:34:51 <geekosaur> consider that if linux didn;t protect the base system stuff with root access, linux would be even worse than windows with respect to viruses and such
12:36:27 <abastro[m]> Wait, is windows considered more vulnerable than linux?
12:36:41 <tdammers> depends how you use it
12:36:57 <abastro[m]> I thought I only considered my linux safer because I generally am aware of what I am installing and what it does
12:38:04 <abastro[m]> Meanwhile Windows is a corporate solution costing a ton, it should be more preventive towards threats
12:38:56 <tdammers> there's also the thing where the default installation method on GNU/Linux is to download signed binaries from a trusted repository, whereas, at least as far as personal desktop use goes, the default for Windows has been to install unsigned binaries from unverified websites
12:39:58 <tdammers> if you install random crap from random websites on Linux, then that's just as bad as it would be on Windows, the only thing that makes you less likely to be compromised is that Windows is a more common target for such low-hanging-fruit attacks (the "sneakers agains lion attacks" thing)
12:40:58 <abastro[m]> Oh.
12:41:33 <abastro[m]> I guess I should be worried, I added couple of ppas not provided by OS
12:42:00 <tdammers> as long as they come from someone you trust, and you have verified their identity, it should be OK
12:43:35 <abastro[m]> I see.. but I wonder if I can even trust nvidias
12:43:56 <abastro[m]> Necessary to install graphics driver duh
12:45:10 <tdammers> that is of course proprietary code, but at least you still get the same signature checks if you install the nvidia drivers through your package manager
12:46:02 <abastro[m]> Package manager does signature checks?
12:47:01 <geekosaur> windows is probably less vulnerable than linu these days, because NT-class windows has a better permissions system (original windows had none, not even administrator) and there was a lot of historical cruft that went away starting in windows 8
12:49:37 <tdammers> depends on your attack vectors of course, but yes, generally speaking, windows got their act together
12:50:23 <tdammers> the permission system is a two-edged sword though - the NT system is far more expressive than Unix permissions, but that also makes it more complex, and harder to understand
12:50:32 <geekosaur> true
12:50:58 <geekosaur> but a root-like Big Hammer is also a poor choice
12:51:28 <tdammers> true; but it's not the only choice you have, even with Unix permissions
12:52:04 <geekosaur> and you have to do a lot more work and sometimes go against your distro's permissions if you want to, say, do backups without having to invoke root
12:52:28 <geekosaur> so in some ways it just moves the complexity instead of removing it
12:53:35 <abastro[m]> <del>Like golang?</del>
12:53:47 <tdammers> in a way, yes
12:54:22 <tdammers> golang is a simple language, it lacks some abstractive power, and because of that, code is sometimes more complicated than it should be
12:55:53 <abastro[m]> Yep now I recognize that I should at least appreciate how it does not accept features without tons of thought
12:56:09 <abastro[m]> (The "simplicity" thing still sounds dubious to me tho)
12:56:27 <abastro[m]> (Altho i guess comparison is against Java OOP, then.. lol)
12:57:26 <tdammers> well, but that's kind of the age-old challenge of designing a programming language: you want the core language to be simple but expressive.
12:57:52 <tdammers> if you make it too simple, you force people to write more complicated code; if you make it too complex, then the language itself is, well, too complex
12:58:54 <abastro[m]> Indeed, I guess Go just strived to being too simple
12:59:10 <abastro[m]> They generally do not care expressiveness it seems
12:59:23 <abastro[m]> But that can help readability for beginners too
13:04:59 <tdammers> you have to consider the context in which Go was conceived
13:05:32 <tdammers> Google is not your average dev shop; the economics that govern 99% of the software industry do not apply to Google.
13:06:41 <abastro[m]> Well yeah, but then everyone wants to folloe Yoogle
13:06:51 <abastro[m]> s/Yoogle/Google
13:09:23 <abastro[m]> Many companies try to do stuffs with lower quality devs as well, which generally saves cost
13:13:57 <geekosaur> problem being it doesn't workfor them
13:15:47 <abastro[m]> Doesn't work?
13:15:55 <abastro[m]> But these companies are operational
13:16:35 <geekosaur> operational but not getting the same benefits
13:16:59 <geekosaur> admittedly "the perfect is the enemy of the good" also applies here
13:17:29 <tdammers> case in point, most companies can get very far with shitty software and horrible development practices.
13:17:30 <geekosaur> but you get a lot of barely functioning crap
13:17:37 <geekosaur> that, yes
13:17:56 <abastro[m]> Indeed, barely functioning crqp
13:17:58 <tdammers> it's amazing how long people can hold such a pile of crap together with duct tape and chewing gum
13:17:58 <abastro[m]> Crap**
13:18:44 <abastro[m]> But at least it saves them cost because the price to pay for the troubles are still quite low
13:19:32 <abastro[m]> Well, duct tape at least meeds more praise I think. They themselves should have been made reliable enough to hold other things together
13:21:13 <abastro[m]> Writing shitty software is how shops using python operate I guess. Tho they got ideas which get afloat
13:23:59 <abastro[m]> At least writing the same junk with Go might be better (or, I guess, not)
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14:41:05 <abastro> Why does xmonad pulls build executable from config directory? Can I change the behavior?
14:42:28 <geekosaur> the build script, you mean? I think it's considered part of the config insofar as the config needs it (if it is needed)
14:42:50 <geekosaur> I don't think there's a separate envar or etc. for the build script
14:45:02 <abastro> True, seems like I've been confusing something
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14:59:21 <LukasLuluHu[m]> <geekosaur> "although these days we recommend..." <- thank you, but then how would you access XConfig from the additionalKeysP list, should I declare it a global variable? And just to clarify, because the docs couldn't help me here, is def {modMask = mod4Mask} of type XConfig?
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14:59:58 <geekosaur> only reason you need it is for modm, but additionalKeysP supports the M- modifier instead
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15:00:16 <geekosaur> and takes the config as its first (or as usually used, left) parameter
15:03:16 <geekosaur> mm, sadly the tutorial doesn't have enough section headings. look in https://xmonad.org/TUTORIAL.html for "M-S-z" as an example of how to use additionalKeysP. it's written inside `` so it acts as an operator, so the config is its left parameter
15:03:38 <geekosaur> so you don't have to extract the modifier key yourself, it does it for you
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15:03:57 <geekosaur> and you can just refer to it as the "M-" modifier in a key sequence
15:32:18 <LukasLuluHu[m]> ok, thank you! Sadly adding ("M-y", scratchpadSpawnActionTerminal "alacritty") also doesn't spawn an alacritty. But it's also not that important, would only be nice to have.
15:32:47 <geekosaur> @where paste
15:32:48 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
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15:44:17 <Guest82> hi has anyone gotten xmonad 17 working on nixos ive struggled for the past day on it
15:44:35 <Guest82> looking to transition from arch, used to building with stack
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15:45:29 <geekosaur> there's a flake for xmonad and contrib but I know nothing about it, I don't use nixos. well, and there'sa NIX.md at the toplevel of the xmonad repo
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15:46:45 <Guest82> I'll research about the flakes! thanks
15:47:43 <[Leary]> Guest82: Iirc 0.17 should work out of the box. What problem are you actually seeing?
15:49:22 <Guest82> Setup: Encountered missing or private dependencies:
15:49:22 <Guest82> xmonad >=0.16.99999 && <0.18
15:50:10 <Guest82> smiliar issues documented here
15:50:11 <Guest82> https://discourse.nixos.org/t/use-latest-version-of-xmonad-0-17-0/16191/2
15:51:38 <[Leary]> Normally you don't select versions like that, you just just xmonad from the appropriate haskell package set.
15:52:15 <[Leary]> I don't really know what people are doing in that thread..
15:52:49 <Guest82> for some reason it is pulling .15 instead of .17 on the unstable repo for me, but I could have done something incorrectly
15:53:08 <Guest82> so my config does not work because it is using the old contrib
15:53:16 <Guest82> that is if I set it up as normal
15:56:57 <[Leary]> It really should be 0.17 on unstable. Maybe you're pinned to an old nixpkgs, or you need to do some kind of channel update.
15:59:20 <[Leary]> I'm rebuilding my system with standard xmonad right now, let's see what version I get.
15:59:30 <Guest82> I ran these: sudo nix-channel --add https://nixos.org/channels/nixos-unstable nixos, sudo nix-channel --update, nixos-rebuild switch --upgrade
15:59:59 <Guest82> I could totally be going about it completely wrong as I am very new to nix, so i really appreciate all the hlep
16:01:46 <[Leary]> Yeah, it's 0.15 on 21.11, 0.17 on unstable.
16:01:52 <Guest82> windowManager.xmonad = {
16:01:52 <Guest82>   enable = true;
16:01:53 <Guest82>   enableContribAndExtras = true;
16:01:53 <Guest82>   extraPackages = haskellPackages: [
16:01:54 <Guest82>     haskellPackages.xmonad
16:01:54 <Guest82>     haskellPackages.xmonad-contrib
16:01:55 <Guest82>   ];
16:01:55 <Guest82> };
16:02:34 <Guest82> hm [Leary] that is what I have in my config file, and that is how I tried to switch to unstable, did I miss a step?
16:02:42 <[Leary]> You don't need the extraPackages setting; that's redundant (and maybe harmful, though I doubt it).
16:04:08 <[Leary]> Tbh, I wasn't using NixOS for a couple of years, only came back to it recently. My new system is all flake-based, so I don't recall the details with channels.
16:04:39 <Guest82> would you recommend I invest into flakes, I have just been following the docks to set up a normal config, no clue on flakes
16:04:45 <Guest82> are they much more difficult
16:05:16 <Guest82> I'm planning on switching to nix for the reliability and repeatabliity
16:06:51 <[Leary]> They're not really more difficult, I guess. Just take a bit of getting used to.
16:07:04 <Guest82> [Leary] do you by chance have a dots files available that I could look through and try to understand
16:09:57 <[Leary]> Mine have a whiff of boot-strapping about them. They actually wouldn't work out of the box, so they're a bit unhelpful.
16:10:46 <Guest82> ah no worries, I will just start messing with why I'm not pulling from unstable on normal repo for a little more then try and tinker with flakes, there has to be some small step or big one I am missing
16:10:55 <Guest82> I really appreciate the help! [Leary]
16:11:23 <[Leary]> np
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16:21:04 <Guest82> hi [Leary] do you mind if I ask what time zone youre in, I am in PST, just was wondering if you might be available to help in the evening when I give it another shot
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16:23:47 <[Leary]> It's very late/early where I am; I'll be sleeping soon. But if your evening is eight or ten hours from now, I might be around.
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23:20:47 → rekahsoft joins (~rekahsoft@cpe001b21a2fd89-cm64777ddc63a0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
23:24:17 × Czernobog quits (~Czernobog@user/czernobog) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
23:25:54 → Czernobog joins (~Czernobog@user/czernobog)
23:52:11 → stackdroid18 joins (14094@user/stackdroid)
23:59:23 → mvk joins (~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::46a8)

All times are in UTC on 2022-04-21.