Logs: freenode/#haskell
| 2021-05-21 02:27:51 | × | chris__ quits (~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-21 02:28:17 | <edwardk> | so i suspect this channel goes out with a wave of spam and a whimper not a bang |
| 2021-05-21 02:28:26 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 2021-05-21 02:28:51 | <wroathe> | As an outsider generally to IRC politics, I'm just very confused by all of this. I've seen multiple ops in multiple channels express concern about communities fracturing, but all of them are doing this same thing you're describing where no one takes charge to try and prevent that :P |
| 2021-05-21 02:29:19 | <wroathe> | "I moved. It'll work itself out naturally. Hopefully we don't fracture." |
| 2021-05-21 02:29:31 | <davean> | Its a community. Not a possesion |
| 2021-05-21 02:29:36 | <edwardk> | it'll fracture either way. a third of the people will stay in any network split, i've lived through enough of them to know. the main difference is that one way its your fault |
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| 2021-05-21 02:30:05 | <davean> | You lead communities, you can't command them |
| 2021-05-21 02:30:35 | <edwardk> | so i can try to rally and make a difference of 50-100 people one way or the other and burn a lot of mental capital and a lot of my ability to think for the next couple of weeks |
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| 2021-05-21 02:31:03 | <edwardk> | or i can just sit here and point out the state of things fairly calmly like i'm doing and get most of that benefit without being the asshole |
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| 2021-05-21 02:31:25 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Well, you have a lot more experience than I do, but to me it seems as simple as conducting a vote between the ops (which it sounds like you've basically done), and then updating the topic in here to state that the operators have moved on, and that they encourage others to follow suit |
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| 2021-05-21 02:31:55 | tim | is now known as Guest89997 |
| 2021-05-21 02:32:09 | <edwardk> | we're still missing some things on the libera.chat side. we need to get the channel logging done. we need to get a matrix bridge because that probably affects a swing of like 200 users, etc. |
| 2021-05-21 02:32:44 | <edwardk> | we've been going at a breakneck pace, i've been setting up channels as quickly as i can and trying to wrangle all the permissions, and do the moment to moment stuff that can't delegate well |
| 2021-05-21 02:32:54 | × | chris__ quits (~chris@81.96.113.213) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2021-05-21 02:33:26 | <edwardk> | nobody who is advocating that we move to as oftc has done any comparable work, no comparable colony has broken off, add the matrix users and i think it becomes a much easier case |
| 2021-05-21 02:33:38 | <edwardk> | do it now? and we get to deal with exactly those issues i enumerated |
| 2021-05-21 02:33:58 | <edwardk> | so move or don't this week, by this time next week i expect the rough edges will be shorn off |
| 2021-05-21 02:34:59 | <edwardk> | i have the +F flag on the channel, but the only reason for that is because someone shoved it into my hands. Cale was here long before i, shapr started the channel. both are over there now. |
| 2021-05-21 02:35:04 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Cool. I figure all of the growing pains could also be included in the topic. "Matrix bridge and channel logging coming soon" or something like that |
| 2021-05-21 02:35:30 | <edwardk> | all perfectly legitimate concerns |
| 2021-05-21 02:35:46 | <edwardk> | i learned about the channel logging issue in the middle of this conversation ;) |
| 2021-05-21 02:37:06 | <edwardk> | i was hoping to raise it at the haskell foundation board meeting this morning, but then i got stuck in another meeting straight through it and wasn't able to attend. |
| 2021-05-21 02:37:28 | <sm[m]> | "make haste slowly" |
| 2021-05-21 02:37:48 | <wroathe> | "We'll be migrating to Libera chat during the coming week. Services like channel logging and a matrix bridge are forthcoming. Migrate as soon as is convenient." |
| 2021-05-21 02:37:50 | <edwardk> | and am just coming off of 9 hours of public speaking to folks, so i expect i'm going to sleep soon, and let somewhat more energetic folks do all these extra steps =) |
| 2021-05-21 02:37:51 | <wroathe> | Or someting like that |
| 2021-05-21 02:37:51 | <sm[m]> | great work edwardk, and all |
| 2021-05-21 02:38:04 | × | Qwerky quits (~qwerky@178.197.228.14) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-21 02:38:40 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Yeah, I don't mean to lay this all at your personal doorstep either |
| 2021-05-21 02:38:53 | <edwardk> | i fully get that you feel very very strongly about all of this right now, but after 48 hours of go go go go go go go, i'm kinda fried. |
| 2021-05-21 02:39:06 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I'm moreso just expressing frustration generally. This story has been playing out in the channels I keep tabs on. |
| 2021-05-21 02:39:37 | <edwardk> | haskell is very much a big tent with no real central leader figure that likes to make big decisions |
| 2021-05-21 02:39:49 | <edwardk> | simon is a 'hug it out' kind of guy |
| 2021-05-21 02:40:09 | × | Deide quits (~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Quit: Seeee yaaaa) |
| 2021-05-21 02:40:15 | <a6a45081-2b83> | please make the ultimate leader of haskell language |
| 2021-05-21 02:40:20 | <a6a45081-2b83> | *make me the |
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| 2021-05-21 02:40:26 | <edwardk> | and there's no good decision here. some folks won't move no matter what. |
| 2021-05-21 02:40:31 | <edwardk> | too late construction has already begun |
| 2021-05-21 02:40:58 | <edwardk> | i was working on ai safety, but apparently i'm now switching course into haskell leader alignment |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:01 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Does spj even participate here? I wasn't aware that he cared about IRC |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:07 | <edwardk> | spj doesn't care about irc |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:16 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Haha. That's what you get for being reliable. |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:37 | <edwardk> | except when he gets called up by the ircops because they are getting ranted at by academics that shapr has banned for negativity |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:49 | <sm[m]> | lol |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:53 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I used to work with a developer who would complain constantly because management turned him into the "IBM Websphere support guy" for the team. |
| 2021-05-21 02:41:56 | <sm[m]> | ouch |
| 2021-05-21 02:42:06 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I told him the way to fix that was to stop being so reliable |
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| 2021-05-21 02:42:34 | <edwardk> | wroathe: that's my secret. i just flake out and let everyone else pick up the pieces |
| 2021-05-21 02:42:44 | <edwardk> | i mean, come on, witness this messy migration ;) |
| 2021-05-21 02:42:51 | <wroathe> | Very wise ;) |
| 2021-05-21 02:43:08 | <edwardk> | i drink and i know things |
| 2021-05-21 02:43:44 | <wroathe> | Great. Now I'm sad because the ending of GoT sucked. Way to pile on more negative feels. |
| 2021-05-21 02:43:59 | <edwardk> | hah |
| 2021-05-21 02:44:05 | <wroathe> | I had almost succeeded in forgetting about that. |
| 2021-05-21 02:44:18 | <a6a45081-2b83> | that's some real good advices: i just flake out and let everyone else pick up the pieces, stop being so reliable |
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| 2021-05-21 02:45:00 | × | motersen quits (~motersen@gateway/tor-sasl/motersen) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-21 02:45:06 | <wroathe> | Well, someone should relay my messages to another haskell op and lay the management alignment stuff at their doorstep for me :P |
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| 2021-05-21 02:45:16 | <wroathe> | I'm officially delegating to you, whoever you are. |
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| 2021-05-21 02:45:34 | <edwardk> | make sclv do it |
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| 2021-05-21 02:45:52 | <edwardk> | you might need to try to reach him on libera.chat though, i think he already fully left ;) |
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| 2021-05-21 02:46:12 | <wroathe> | If only we had people in here that were hanging out in both channels :P |
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| 2021-05-21 02:47:39 | <edwardk> | glguy was probably our most active op, and he basiclaly left at the start of all this freenode drama (about a month ago!) since he was apparently one if not the first ircop approached by andrew demanding access |
| 2021-05-21 02:48:00 | <wroathe> | Is glguy on the other server? |
| 2021-05-21 02:48:28 | <wroathe> | Sounds like a perfect candidate to rally the troops :P |
| 2021-05-21 02:48:40 | <edwardk> | he's not rejoining this server, ever. |
| 2021-05-21 02:49:01 | <edwardk> | i moved #haskell-lens over, because frankly he's done maybe a third of the work on that package |
| 2021-05-21 02:49:14 | <edwardk> | and i value having access to his input a great deal |
| 2021-05-21 02:49:28 | <wroathe> | Well, all he needs to do is coordinate a vote, and then they can have someone who is still logged in here update the topic if it goes the way we think it'll go |
| 2021-05-21 02:49:32 | <edwardk> | and it seems kind of a dick move to continue that development on a server run by a guy who drove him out |
| 2021-05-21 02:49:38 | <wroathe> | I don't think he needs to rejoin this server to do that |
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| 2021-05-21 02:50:36 | <edwardk> | glguy isn't going to coordinate anything, for the same reason i'm kind of a bad choice. i was the one who raised the issue, meanwhile he's the one most affected by the server drama here. mniip and a few other former ops, maybe edk, that tend to slum here as well |
| 2021-05-21 02:51:21 | <edwardk> | each of them live under whatever threats mr. lee wants to offer, and he has deep pockets and folks are scared, so no, i'm not going to ask glguy to do it |
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| 2021-05-21 02:52:33 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Well, thanks for entertaining my ramblings |
| 2021-05-21 02:52:42 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Did the talk you gave today get posted somewhere? |
| 2021-05-21 02:52:51 | <edwardk> | nah, it was consulting |
| 2021-05-21 02:54:33 | <edwardk> | i do think organizing a vote among the ops would be a good idea. i may wait until there's matrix support and we get the logs set up before pushing for it though |
| 2021-05-21 02:54:56 | × | Qwerky quits (~qwerky@178.197.228.14) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-05-21 02:55:05 | <mniip> | realistically I suspect matrix is on the scale of a handful days |
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