Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2021-05-26 16:30:52 | <hololeap> | I'm re-reading |
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| 2021-05-26 16:36:22 | <hololeap> | ok, I think I get it now. error on my part |
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| 2021-05-26 16:37:34 | <hololeap> | my first mistake was thinking that Parser from attoparsec was purely Applicative |
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| 2021-05-26 16:40:46 | <davean> | Yah, Applicative would be a bit of a problem if that was the ONLY one you had, Applicative with a few things wouldn't though, even if that fell short of Monad (Selective for example) |
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| 2021-05-26 16:41:50 | <hololeap> | I don't see how you could do this without a Monad, though, since it has to catalog what types it has seen so far |
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| 2021-05-26 16:42:09 | <davean> | well, theres a paper on Selective. |
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| 2021-05-26 16:42:35 | <davean> | Though in an entirely different direction from Selective - Monad has laws, those laws are not what matter for this oepration |
| 2021-05-26 16:42:42 | <davean> | pure functions, treated first class, can do this |
| 2021-05-26 16:42:49 | <davean> | you just don't get laws along with that |
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| 2021-05-26 16:43:36 | <hololeap> | so you're saying something more powerful than an Applicative but less powerful than a Monad can do the job? |
| 2021-05-26 16:44:01 | <hololeap> | I just wasn't aware of anything like that |
| 2021-05-26 16:44:02 | <davean> | Yes |
| 2021-05-26 16:44:26 | <hololeap> | but I'll look into Selective |
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| 2021-05-26 16:46:57 | <davean> | Theres also a world of difference between Haskell Monad and Math Monad |
| 2021-05-26 16:47:32 | <davean> | While one might argue the Math Monadness of some continuation passing implimentation, it certainly wouldn't be Haskell Monad. |
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| 2021-05-26 16:52:32 | <hololeap> | I think of a Haskell Monad as a Kleisli arrow, since the Math monad just states that the two endofunctors _exist_ but doesn't say anything about a specific direction |
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| 2021-05-26 16:55:54 | <testes> | it works ! |
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| 2021-05-26 16:56:17 | <unyu> | Isn't the most important difference that Haskellers only work with Hask, which is morally a dumbed down Set? Whereas mathematicians work with functors between arbitrary categories. |
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| 2021-05-26 16:56:54 | <davean> | anyway, back to the persons origional question, the anwer I was giving is that one can pass a function that carries the remaining validation, peels it off as it goes, and constructs the next parser based on what has been seen, and continues |
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| 2021-05-26 16:58:11 | <hololeap> | unyu: a monad specifically talks about endofunctors, which are functors from category C to category C, so it doesn't matter if you just stay inside Hask |
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| 2021-05-26 16:59:26 | <unyu> | hololeap: It matters a lot, because it means that you cannot get useful intuition from categories that do not like Hask at all. |
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| 2021-05-26 16:59:52 | <unyu> | Also, a monad is a *single* endofunctor plus two natural transformations, such that three diagrams commute. (Sometimes, two of the diagrams are combined into one.) |
| 2021-05-26 17:00:08 | <unyu> | The one involving two functors (not necessarily endofunctors) are adjunctions. |
| 2021-05-26 17:00:54 | <hololeap> | right |
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| 2021-05-26 17:01:12 | <hololeap> | two natural transformations involving an endofunctor |
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| 2021-05-26 17:02:35 | <davean> | and the moral of this story is we must now shead a tear for Schrostfutz who didn't get their answer |
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| 2021-05-26 17:03:18 | <hololeap> | they should have known that asking a simple question in #haskell would devolve into an argument about theory ;) |
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| 2021-05-26 17:03:57 | <davean> | look, theres enough blame to go around, we shouldn't be proud of what happened! |
| 2021-05-26 17:04:08 | <davean> | 4/5ths of this is on us |
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| 2021-05-26 17:07:12 | <gonz_> | You joke, but it kind of sucks. |
| 2021-05-26 17:09:25 | <gonz_> | Lots of people think that if they can't follow this kind of peripherally related nonsense discussion they probably shouldn't use Haskell. |
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